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Author Topic: Site: Revised RHDN Policy  (Read 70526 times)

Deathlike2

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2008, 06:34:08 pm »
Even if that means we're hosting files against the author's wishes?

What about the fans? Its not our faults that internal politics got an author pissed off and then we are suffering for it. The point of these hacks and translations in the first place are so people can enjoy them no? If every author started deleting his stuff at their random whims more people like me would be downloading everything on the site and taxing the servers so we don't lose anything unlike now where I trust that the files will be there and download them when I need it to play.
There are a lot of translated games and hacks on this site I want to play sometime and will be downloading when I finish the games I am currently playing or when I have time to play them. Are you telling me I should go download them now "Just in case" so I don't miss my chance or have to search the net for them later?
This opens a lot of issues such as the afore mentioned taxing of the servers, people having archives of outdated hacks/translations and spreading those around when people ask for them.

You have to think of the fans as well as the authors because they are the same community.

The users are always screwed here, no matter what policy you put in place. That's why you can't have the "just because" excuse for authors wanting hacks removed. It's hard to strike that proper balance.

A more reasonable, yet imperfect expectation is that if the author wants their stuff removed, that they should have a reasonable website available to download their hack (well, one that they have control over anyways). This is generally the case, except for those who want their stuff "removed from the Internets"... which is wishful thinking at best. Then again, stuff happens. You can't account for every possibility that comes up.
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InVerse

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2008, 06:42:32 pm »
Where will you be releasing them?

I've been calling several dialup BBSes as of late and keep thinking I might do something with one of them, though I doubt I'll go that route exclusively. Most likely, I'll do it like I did in the old days, release on my own personal site and then make the rounds of the various forums.


There is no copywrite on patches made that use other copywrited material. While this place does have an honor system don't bring the word copywrite into it.

Technically, patches don't contain copyrighted information from the source material. Whether said patches can legally be copyrighted may be questionable, but until it's actually taken to court and decided, you can't say definitively. Chances are, if a patch author files a DMCA complaint with a site's host, the host is likely going to side with the patch author for safety's sake. And original documentation that is included with a patch is indisputably copyrighted unless the author states otherwise.


Copyright? What copyright? Most content on this site can be assumed to be public domain unless license states otherwise

The (U.S.) law states that material is presumed to be copyrighted unless stated otherwise, a copyright notice is not required.


Why do you always do a drive by post on big issues like this? Why take the time to make a smartass comment and disappear instead of, you know, an actual discussion?

I apologize. The next time that a controversial thread is created, I'll see if I can't take a day of from work so I can sit at my computer and instantly respond to any questions.  I made my post at 8:30pm. The first reply to address my post came at 9:30pm, which is about the time I normally go to bed, seeing as how I have to wake up at 5:30am to get ready for work. I get off at work at 4:30pm, it's now approximately 5:30pm, less than 24 hours after I made my initial post. How does that qualify as disappearing?

Here's the reason I have a problem with the new policy. If I submit my work under said policy, I have absolutely no right to request that my material be removed. If Nightcrawler suddenly decides to start running porn ads and charging people $5/month to use the site, my material would be contributing to his immoral (IMO) profiteering and I would have no right to complain. Do I believe something like this will actually occur? No. But I won't put myself in a position of potential helplessness.

Neil

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2008, 06:51:35 pm »
Here's the reason I have a problem with the new policy. If I submit my work under said policy, I have absolutely no right to request that my material be removed. If Nightcrawler suddenly decides to start running porn ads and charging people $5/month to use the site, my material would be contributing to his immoral (IMO) profiteering and I would have no right to complain. Do I believe something like this will actually occur? No. But I won't put myself in a position of potential helplessness.

Read the last sentence of the policy again. "without critical reason". What you outlined there, in my opinion, would be. What wouldn't be would be something like "I just submitted my patch last week but someone on some forum somewhere called me an idiot and so now I'm quitting the scene and I want you to remove all my work because I don't want that idiot who called me an idiot to have access to my work because he's an idiot"

What I will never understand is why people spend tens of hours creating things and then want to erase them from the internet, but I guess that's a discussion for another day.

Lilinda

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2008, 07:02:40 pm »
Why do you always do a drive by post on big issues like this? Why take the time to make a smartass comment and disappear instead of, you know, an actual discussion?

I apologize. The next time that a controversial thread is created, I'll see if I can't take a day of from work so I can sit at my computer and instantly respond to any questions.  I made my post at 8:30pm. The first reply to address my post came at 9:30pm, which is about the time I normally go to bed, seeing as how I have to wake up at 5:30am to get ready for work. I get off at work at 4:30pm, it's now approximately 5:30pm, less than 24 hours after I made my initial post. How does that qualify as disappearing?

Here's the reason I have a problem with the new policy. If I submit my work under said policy, I have absolutely no right to request that my material be removed. If Nightcrawler suddenly decides to start running porn ads and charging people $5/month to use the site, my material would be contributing to his immoral (IMO) profiteering and I would have no right to complain. Do I believe something like this will actually occur? No. But I won't put myself in a position of potential helplessness.

Now, that's something I can respect.
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InVerse

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2008, 07:06:08 pm »
Read the last sentence of the policy again. "without critical reason". What you outlined there, in my opinion, would be. What wouldn't be would be something like "I just submitted my patch last week but someone on some forum somewhere called me an idiot and so now I'm quitting the scene and I want you to remove all my work because I don't want that idiot who called me an idiot to have access to my work because he's an idiot"

If the unlikely situation I described above were to occur, chances are deletion requests would be ignored regardless of reasoning. I prefer to keep my legal rights available, regardless of the unlikeliness of actually using them.

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What I will never understand is why people spend tens of hours creating things and then want to erase them from the internet, but I guess that's a discussion for another day.

It's the journey, not the destination, that matters. Also, you'll understand one day, when word leaks out about those pictures with the emu and the peanut butter.

creaothceann

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2008, 07:07:49 pm »
I won't put myself in a position of potential helplessness.

*shrug* The only way to do that is to not release anything.

Digital material, just like scientific formulas, can't be owned like physical objects. You can't really control how it's used; you can only have your name attached to it.

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InVerse

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2008, 07:25:00 pm »
*shrug* The only way to do that is to not release anything.

Digital material, just like scientific formulas, can't be owned like physical objects. You can't really control how it's used; you can only have your name attached to it.

You can still maintain your legal rights. It might be a pain in the ass to put them to use, but the option is still there.

Piotyr

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2008, 07:40:40 pm »
The fact is you are talking about your legal rights when you are completely ignoring the legal rights of the publishers of the original game. Hypocritical is the word I see going here.

Lilinda

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2008, 07:47:02 pm »
There is no copywrite on patches made that use other copywrited material. While this place does have an honor system don't bring the word copywrite into it.

Technically, patches don't contain copyrighted information from the source material. Whether said patches can legally be copyrighted may be questionable, but until it's actually taken to court and decided, you can't say definitively. Chances are, if a patch author files a DMCA complaint with a site's host, the host is likely going to side with the patch author for safety's sake. And original documentation that is included with a patch is indisputably copyrighted unless the author states otherwise.

Uh, it depends on what the patch contains. If it's got material from the game, hell yes it's illegal. A script translation sure as hell is.

I think it was byuu that explained that. Can someone else here confirm this?
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Disch

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2008, 07:53:54 pm »
You guys are assuming hacks/translations which is admittedly a grey area.  But for purposes of utilities/docs, legal rights are a valid issue and are not in any grey area whatsoever.  Therefore I think we should just assume the files in question are legal and legitimately copyrighted.

Let's avoid this "is romhacking illegal" sidetrack and get back on point.

Piotyr

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2008, 07:59:31 pm »
You guys are assuming hacks/translations which is admittedly a grey area.  But for purposes of utilities/docs, legal rights are a valid issue and are not in any grey area whatsoever.  Therefore I think we should just assume the files in question are legal and legitimately copyrighted.

Let's avoid this "is romhacking illegal" sidetrack and get back on point.
We can't avoid that because its one of the biggest parts of inverses argument. If we have to avoid it on this side then inverse has to and thus has no argument.
I still have had no comments on my post about the fans side of things.

Disch

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2008, 08:02:43 pm »
Inverse was also talking about documents, which are not in a grey area -- thus trying to defeat his argument by these means is pointless, because it doesn't apply.

Unless RHDN is planning on treating hacks/utilities/etc all differently (of which there was no indication of), the legality debate is completely moot, because the files in question are legal.

Piotyr

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2008, 08:11:23 pm »
Inverse was also talking about documents, which are not in a grey area -- thus trying to defeat his argument by these means is pointless, because it doesn't apply.

Unless RHDN is planning on treating hacks/utilities/etc all differently (of which there was no indication of), the legality debate is completely moot, because the files in question are legal.
HALF the files are. So you are saying that because half of the things are not in a gray area we ignore the other half? Also note he mentioned his translations in his argument thus giving my the ability to rebut that.

Heck you saying we should stop getting sidetracked is sidetracking this more than the side track because we've said just about everything there is to say about the sidetrack.
Lets get back to the topic at hand.

Disch

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2008, 08:14:36 pm »
HALF the files are. So you are saying that because half of the things are not in a gray area we ignore the other half? Also note he mentioned his translations in his argument thus giving my the ability to rebut that.

You're missing my point.

RHDN's policy doesn't differentiate between file types.  The policy applies to docs and translations alike.  So unless the policy is changed to treat these files differently, it doesn't make any sense to argue against InVerse's stance with these means, because his argument will still be valid even if you prove that romhacking is illegal.  Therefore this tangent you want to start serves absolutely no function unlil the policy is applied differently between file types

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Heck you saying we should stop getting sidetracked is sidetracking this more than the side track because we've said just about everything there is to say about the sidetrack.

Your argument about legality is nonproductive.  The goal here is not to squabble over the legal technicalities, but to establish a policy that the community can agree on.  InVerse is saying why he doesn't approve of the new policy -- do you really think arguing with him about whether or not he has any legal grounds to make that stance is going to change his opinion?

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Lets get back to the topic at hand.

Agreed.  The topic on hand is the RHDN policy and ideas to improve it.  So stop dicking around with meaningless theortical law.  Either propose a solution that addresses InVerse's concerns, or drop it.  Bickering will get us nowhere
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 08:21:33 pm by Disch »

InVerse

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2008, 08:16:52 pm »
Hell, my documents are the only thing of any value on this site. I don't think I've ever gotten a comment about one of my translations outside of the immediate release but I was surprised at how many people brought up old documents after I returned to this site.

And I don't entirely ignore the legal rights of the original owners, though I won't claim to always do so. However, I was the one who obtained permission from Galoob to legally release the Game Genie ROM (I had nothing to do with dumping it, simply got permission for it to be distributed on ZD) and I'm currently in negotiation with ADV's legal department to obtain the legal right to reprint several translation related articles from PiQ magazine on this site. (I've already obtained permission from two of the authors, though they sold all rights to the magazine, so from a legal standpoint, ADV has to grant permission.) I'm also once again attempting to obtain legal rights to Crystalis.

And you can quote whatever laws you want, until it's actually tested in court, no one can officially state that patches are or are not legal. I recall byuu's posts on the subject and his arguments appeared logical, but I recall someone else years ago linking me to the text of some treaty that the U.S. had signed which specifically stated that translations of software that were intended to increase usability were legal.

Disch

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2008, 08:43:52 pm »
Read the last sentence of the policy again. "without critical reason". What you outlined there, in my opinion, would be. What wouldn't be would be something like "I just submitted my patch last week but someone on some forum somewhere called me an idiot and so now I'm quitting the scene and I want you to remove all my work because I don't want that idiot who called me an idiot to have access to my work because he's an idiot"

I certainly see what you're saying, but "without critical reason" is purely subjective.  There's nothing stopping the site from saying a perfectly valid reason isn't good enough just because they don't want to remove the file (not saying this would happen -- but I believe this is part of the point InVerse is trying to make).

I'm still a fan of a submitter-controlled removal system I suggested earlier.  But rather than remove the whole database page, just remove the file, leaving other parts in tact.  Perhaps if a file is removed, have the reason for its removal listed on the page so that people can see just how much of a goon the author is being  XD

In all seriousness, though.  InVerse's concerns are starting to concern me.  The people who would have issues with this policy are most likely going to be heavy contributors of quality content.  On the other hand, the people that throw a drama tantrum and fade from "the scene" are usually people the community won't really be hurting without.  So you're alienating a handful of quality contributors in order to embrace a truckload of mediocre hacks.  Up until now this site has always taken a "quality before quantity" approach with its policies -- which is why hacks have to be of some significance or else they get rejected.  It seems strange that a policy which indirectly accomplishes the exact opposite is now in effect.


We want to discourage deleting of files. We think everything released to the internet should be archieved. Of course the "everything" part is what will alienate a lot of people again. So many propably that it becomes a problem again. We most likely won't have completely free deletion capabilities in any case. We have to draw the line somewhere else I think. But where? We're certainly for every input you guys give us.

As admirable as the goal of being a full, unabridged archive is, it's impractical and impossible for a site like this.  By design, the users are in control of the content, so they should at least be partially responsible for removing content as well.

Existing internet archives (like archive.org) don't even take this approach.  Even they respond to author's request for removal (which sucks when you're trying to look for that specific site, granted).

I don't know... I guess I can see why the policy has been instituted, and I don't personally have any problem with it because I share your ideals.  It still seems like a backwards step for the site.

What about the fans? Its not our faults that internal politics got an author pissed off and then we are suffering for it.

Without the authors, there are no fans.  As cruel as it seems, this relationship is a one-way street.  If we don't embrace the authors, we lose the files, and by chain reaction lose some fans.  Conversely if we lose some fans, we probably won't lose any authors, and thus will gain files, and thus gain/replace fans we may have lost.

It's all about the authors, IMO.  I'm not saying the casual userbase of the site isn't important.  I'm just saying the contributors are much more important.  (Of course I might be biased a bit since I consider myself more of a contributor   ;D )
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 08:59:37 pm by Disch »

Deathlike2

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2008, 08:51:54 pm »
I certainly see what you're saying, but "without critical reason" is purely subjective.  There's nothing stopping the site from saying a perfectly valid reason isn't good enough just because they don't want to remove the file (not saying this would happen -- but I believe this is part of the point InVerse is trying to make).

That clearly needs expanding to remove some of the unnecessary subjectivity. There should be a number of clear cut cases that can keep this simple (perhaps I'm a little naive though).

For utilities and docs, unconditional removal should be allowed. This is the kind of stuff that tend to have legal issues that are clear cut and frankly shouldn't need much debate on. Hacks have too much fuzzy legality though...
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 09:14:46 pm by Deathlike2 »
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Piotyr

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2008, 09:16:11 pm »
It's all about the authors, IMO.  I'm not saying the casual userbase of the site isn't important.  I'm just saying the contributors are much more important.  (Of course I might be biased a bit since I consider myself more of a contributor   ;D )

That is a total lie. A lot of people wouldn't do it if there were no others to use their work. I am betting a lot of people don't even play their own hacks/translations (I know there are exceptions to this but I know from experience with community's that have modders and such that once they get deeply into modding a game and finish said mod you don't really want to touch it afterwords.)

It is not a one way street and I am insulted by that being a user myself.
If most authors on this site thought like you did I wouldn't help at all such as getting some rare games off the internet for others and showing my support for a job well done. If you are much more important then you surely don't need me and you surely don't need our thanks and support in your endeavors which a lot of people enjoy.

Deathlike2

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2008, 09:24:53 pm »
It's all about the authors, IMO.  I'm not saying the casual userbase of the site isn't important.  I'm just saying the contributors are much more important.  (Of course I might be biased a bit since I consider myself more of a contributor   ;D )

That is a total lie. A lot of people wouldn't do it if there were no others to use their work. I am betting a lot of people don't even play their own hacks/translations (I know there are exceptions to this but I know from experience with community's that have modders and such that once they get deeply into modding a game and finish said mod you don't really want to touch it afterwords.)

It is not a one way street and I am insulted by that being a user myself.

You have to look at this both ways.

Most users here want to play hacks (whether it is an actual hack or a translation, it's something to do) or find some way to hack the game (which in turn, become authors...). This isn't rocket science..

On the other side, the intention of the author making the hack is a whole different business. Although whatever they produce is for the world to play with, it is not necessarily true that they want their work used in a derivation.. some do. Some hacks are literally, "hey, here's what I found, anyone can use it for their hack". Some aren't. Whether or not you agree with it (let alone the legal ramifications of what they want), it's not something users have control over.

Besides, I get weary when some authors don't test their own hacks...
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 09:39:22 pm by Deathlike2 »
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Kitsune Sniper

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2008, 11:14:51 pm »
Meh. This doesn't really concern me. The only reasons I'd request a patch be removed would be:

A) It's really buggy and I don't want people to get it until it's been properly fixed up;
B) I want to replace the readme file for an updated one (I've been meaning to do this since I got my own domain, and left vice.parodius behind).

Meh.
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