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Author Topic: Site: Revised RHDN Policy  (Read 70521 times)

Deathlike2

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2008, 10:44:14 am »
There's also a possible side effect to this new policy that you failed to take into consideration. I, for one, will not be submitting any of the new translations, documents or utilities that I'll hopefully have completed by the end of the year. I might be the only one who feels this way, but based on Bongo`s reaction in this thread and a couple of well known hackers comments via IM, I'm guessing I won't be.

Bongo's reaction is still unclear. You can't derive a context that hasn't been actually been written..

My initial reaction to this thread is...

"WTF? Ok?" - I don't care, but did it have to come to this?

It's unlikely the reaction is more like... "What the heck are you guys doing? Are you guys nuts?"


I don't see this as a big deal. It seems to me people want to remove stuff "just because", and that has to be the lamest argument ever. When you submit stuff, technically you are agreeing to let everyone have at it. It's not something you should do "to get the word out". So, if the hack was ever submitted by the/any author, you are effectively agreeing (though, it should be written out in the submitting section) that everyone is able to access it (at minimum, it suggests preservation). Other than major bugs or something important along those lines (at least some legitimate argument), it shouldn't be pulled.


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Spending time fixing up and processing an author's entry only to have them ask it be removed days later.

This screams of "don't waste our time".

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Getting mass deletion requests for all material belonging to an author with no reason or weak reason given.

Is that from the author or from others? If its from others, just simply ignore it. It shouldn't be rocket science.

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Getting random deletion requests for material on the site for years with reasons cited as “don't feel like having it hosted here anymore”.

By submitting, you implicitly imply you wanted it archived/hosted forever... in theory. Really, that should be a written policy so that everyone understands what they are getting into.

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Unfair deletion of other related material submitted by others such as reviews, descriptions etc.

The most important issue is demonstrating you've played the hack/translation, w/o just criticizing it outright on the surface (it's fine having some initial reaction, but that's it). Maybe I'm have absolutely no enthusiam with all the retranslations of CT that I'm indifferent (I like the original translation as is for the most part, since noone is actually hacking the Jap version of the game), enough to say nothing because it's not worth the effort to dig a hole for myself.

The descriptions should definately be kept, as long as it's fair. The simple fact is that once it exists, it's there, and it can't really be forgotten or removed off the face of the Internet.
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DarknessSavior

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2008, 11:18:06 am »
I've been meaning to add to this thread anyway:

Maybe I have absolutely no enthusiam with all the retranslations of CT that I'm indifferent (I like the original translation as is for the most part, since noone is actually hacking the Jap version of the game), enough to say nothing because it's not worth the effort to dig a hole for myself.

Yet. Give it time, my friend. All within good time.

Back on topic, I think that is rule is good for everyone in the community. I really don't see how anyone can suffer because of it. I don't see what "possible side effect" could happen because of this. It all sounds like a power-trip to me, really.

And uh, if you don't submit your stuff to RHDN, isn't it possible for other people to submit it anyway? >.>

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Deathlike2

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2008, 11:23:25 am »
And uh, if you don't submit your stuff to RHDN, isn't it possible for other people to submit it anyway? >.>

The whole original topic explains this. If the author's website was meant to be the only distrubution point, then the author has full rights to ask the file to be removed.

However, the author does not have the same leeway when the author submits a hack. That's the only actual distinction.

Although, I do think there needs to be a month's time to allow the author to pull their hack back for whatever the reason (changed their minds or "didn't read the fine print" excuses). Past that point, that's should be it unless there are legitimate reasons.
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Nightcrawler

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2008, 11:28:35 am »
Ok, calm down guys. Emotions are heating up. I knew this would be a bit controversial hence why I put it up for discussion. Discussion really should be constructive though. If you don't agree with the proposed change, please give some supporting reasoning and way to improve it. And keep in mind we've got three parties of interest; staff (vested interest in undue wasted time and effort), general community (what's best for everyone as far as information preservation and archiving), authors (respecting author wishes). Clearly neither of the three can have it 100%. ;)

Piotyr:
I don't have records of deletions (well technically I have an action referencing a deletion and it's id number, but no way to know what the entries were for those ids since there not there anymore). Unfortunately I was somewhat of a flip-flopper when it came to entries. In many cases only files were removed, so entries are still up on the site. However in other cases entries were removed as well. I think that's primarily with hacks though because for awhile the system had no provisions to function with entries without files. The original mentality when I coded the site was there should never be entries without files, though we've seen through the past few years there are valid reasons that these conditions needs to be allowed.

InVerse:
Copyright? What copyright? Most content on this site can be assumed to be public domain unless license states otherwise (occasionally we have missed this kind of thing and release license is of course still a valid reason for deletion). Further submissions are giving us permission to host it here. What you've said is the general idea. We don't want you to submit your material here if you don't want it here. Why submit it to an archive site only to remove it later? Save everybody the time and effort. Secret IM's again?  ::) How about these 'well known hackers' have a mature conversation here instead?


Deathlike2:
Yes, you've pretty much understood our viewpoint. As for the mass deletion requests, they are from authors. Most recent I can think of was from The Komrade aka $Avenger who submitted all of those Phantasy Star Hordes of Nei hacks wanting to erase them from the Internet. We've had people who want everything deleted because they quit ROM hacking and want to erase their existence. And of course we've had people who threw fits when they no longer liked the site. C'mon, this is the Internet. You can't erase anything... It's been a real time waster.

You're right, this stuff shouldn't even need to be written. It should be implied. You submit it here, you are consenting to have it archived here. If you don't want it archived here, why submit it? It seems simple enough.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2008, 11:35:03 am »
Deathlike2:
Yes, you've pretty much understood our viewpoint. As for the mass deletion requests, they are from authors. Most recent I can think of was from The Komrade aka $Avenger who submitted all of those Phantasy Star Hordes of Nei hacks wanting to erase them from the Internet. We've had people who want everything deleted because they quit ROM hacking and want to erase their existence. And of course we've had people who threw fits when they no longer liked the site. C'mon, this is the Internet. You can't erase anything... It's been a real time waster.

You're right, this stuff shouldn't even need to be written. It should be implied. You submit it here, you are consenting to have it archived here. If you don't want it archived here, why submit it? It seems simple enough.

Well, the policy needs to be spelled out for authors submitting their work (primarily that their work will be archived and whatever is important), at the very least. What you should do as part of the process is display the policy at submission, and for whatever confirmation e-mail make sure to post it (at least link to what the policy is) to prevent any confusion. I do like my idea for submission leniancy (1 month after submission or after it goes through), in the case that they didn't pay attention or decide that they don't want their stuff hosted after they clearly understand what they are getting into. It doesn't really seem like they understand...
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Lashiec

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2008, 12:41:44 pm »
Um, guys, why is the "Contact Staff Form" linky in yellow?

As for the policy, I think it's a good change. Certain files were deleted in the past whose authors did not wish to have them hosted here due to various reasons, and now they're impossible to find anywhere. Considering the mentioned mission of Romhacking.net as an archive, I found it a bit baffling to see them removed as perhaps they should have not been submitted in the first place.
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RedComet

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2008, 12:49:09 pm »
I do like my idea for submission leniancy (1 month after submission or after it goes through), in the case that they didn't pay attention or decide that they don't want their stuff hosted after they clearly understand what they are getting into. It doesn't really seem like they understand...

If they're not going to bother reading the disclaimer before they submit something, what makes you think they will a month later? I really don't see how this would do anything but encourage people to not read any of the guidelines before submitting things and later request that their work be deleted, wasting our (staff) time in the process. :-\
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Deathlike2

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2008, 12:55:03 pm »
I do like my idea for submission leniancy (1 month after submission or after it goes through), in the case that they didn't pay attention or decide that they don't want their stuff hosted after they clearly understand what they are getting into. It doesn't really seem like they understand...

If they're not going to bother reading the disclaimer before they submit something, what makes you think they will a month later? I really don't see how this would do anything but encourage people to not read any of the guidelines before submitting things and later request that their work be deleted, wasting our (staff) time in the process. :-\

It doesn't have to be a month, but a shorter period of time. Let's just say the simplest term to call it is "submitter's remorse". Even I miss reading stuff once in a blue moon... it happens.

Otherwise, most authors would be reluctant to submit stuff in the first place for fearing that they can't remove it immediately afterwards (for such circumstances as I've expressed). Then again, you would see more 3rd party submissions of the file instead.

It's not an improvement, but it changes how this system is perceived and how some things would change as a result. I'm not saying it's better or worse.. it's just the likely scenario/situation.

See, the workaround "policy" for file submissions by authors is to get someone else (not affliated with the project) to submit the hack. If the hack has a readme, and you don't contact the author, what you've effectively done is set an unknown date of removal for the hack, which is effectively what you are trying to prevent. Then again, the file submission might have the readme not included intentionally for all I know...

If things were the simple... if all hack makers actually had a website, so some form of contact could be made.. it would make life easier... somewhat.

Note: Editing this post multiple times is getting to me.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 01:14:03 pm by Deathlike2 »
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DarknessSavior

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2008, 01:02:26 pm »
I do like my idea for submission leniancy (1 month after submission or after it goes through), in the case that they didn't pay attention or decide that they don't want their stuff hosted after they clearly understand what they are getting into. It doesn't really seem like they understand...

If they're not going to bother reading the disclaimer before they submit something, what makes you think they will a month later? I really don't see how this would do anything but encourage people to not read any of the guidelines before submitting things and later request that their work be deleted, wasting our (staff) time in the process. :-\

It doesn't have to be a month, but a shorter period of time. Let's just say the simplest term to call it is "submitter's remorse". Even I miss reading stuff once in a blue moon... it happens.

Otherwise, most authors would be reluctant to submit stuff in the first place for fearing that they can't remove it immediately afterwards (for such circumstances as I've expressed). Then again, you would see more 3rd party submissions of the file instead.

It's not an improvement, but it changes how this system is perceived and how some things would change as a result. I'm not saying it's better or worse.. it's just the likely scenario/situation.

We could do a one-time deal for this. Perhaps if the person is a new submitter to RHDN, they get a 1-month submission leniency for whatever they submit in their first few weeks/month they start submitting. Anything after that, is subject to normal rules.

A compromise. =D

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Deathlike2

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2008, 01:08:04 pm »
We could do a one-time deal for this. Perhaps if the person is a new submitter to RHDN, they get a 1-month submission leniency for whatever they submit in their first few weeks/month they start submitting. Anything after that, is subject to normal rules.

A compromise. =D

~DS

I guess, but some may reconsider that on a per-hack basis, making it difficult and annoying at the same time.
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DarknessSavior

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2008, 01:15:20 pm »
We could do a one-time deal for this. Perhaps if the person is a new submitter to RHDN, they get a 1-month submission leniency for whatever they submit in their first few weeks/month they start submitting. Anything after that, is subject to normal rules.

A compromise. =D

~DS

I guess, but some may reconsider that on a per-hack basis, making it difficult and annoying at the same time.

My point in that being that the new-submitter would have a certain amount of time to learn the rules, and if they didn't do so, it's their loss.

Or maybe we should just put up a big warning message to relay the rules, in case some people don't actually read them. Bold, and flickering (that last part was a joke). >.>

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Disch

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2008, 01:15:39 pm »
I'm a little late to the game here, so I didn't read the last few posts in this thread.. but hopefully this idea wasn't covered already.

Personally I don't see why anyone would really have a problem with this new policy... but then again I went a few rounds about a similar topic in another thread before... so I guess I just don't understand peoples' mentality sometimes.

Anyway... unless I'm misreading... according to this new policy the only time a removal request won't be unconditionally honored is if the same person that submitted it is the one requesting its removal.  Requests made by the author will still be unconditionally honored if someone other than that person submitted the file.

The reason for the new change seems to be largly because of the waste of staff's time due to flip-floppers concerned about their releases.  If this is the case... why not simply take this job out of the staff's hands?

4chan has something like this for image deletions.  A random password is generated based on a user's IP or something-or-other for every file uploaded, and any user with that password can delete the image from the boards.  Couldn't this same idea be applied to file submissions here?  Simply assign a password to each uploaded file, then any user (that has the password) can remove the file at their leisure, without having to bother staff about it.

If you don't have the password, you weren't the one that submitted the file, and thus would have to go through staff for removal as you would have to normally (but since the policy change doesn't seem to impact people that didn't submit files themselves, this is a nonissue).

If passwords per file aren't good enough -- you could go a step further and require people to login to the site to submit things.. but that might be somewhat of a deterrant for some submitters.

Anyway this idea not only eases the burden off of staff, but also allows for more immediate results for the user (if someone wants their file removed, they don't have to wait for staff to see and respond to their request).


EDIT - maybe as a security measure to prevent malicious mass file deletions with this method... perhaps you could simply make the files unavailable for downloading immediately, but don't actually delete them until like a week or so later so the staff can restore them should something go horribly wrong.  Or maybe you can do some kind of capcha (sp) that needs to be filled to delete files.  Or both.


EDIT2 - I should mention I'm speaking about file removals only.  I think request for full database entries (and related user reviews and other things) don't need to be unconditionally honored in any event.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 01:27:17 pm by Disch »

Deathlike2

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2008, 01:35:33 pm »
Anyway... unless I'm misreading... according to this new policy the only time a removal request won't be unconditionally honored is if the same person that submitted it is the one requesting its removal.  Requests made by the author will still be unconditionally honored if someone other than that person submitted the file.

The reason for the new change seems to be largly because of the waste of staff's time due to flip-floppers concerned about their releases.  If this is the case... why not simply take this job out of the staff's hands?

I think that is because the files/hacks are not meant to be removed at will by the authors. They need a legitmate reason other than "I/we want the hack removed" when they are the submitters of said hack.

RHDN is meant to be an archive of hacks, not a personal hack hosting service.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 01:40:57 pm by Deathlike2 »
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Disch

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2008, 01:46:35 pm »
Even if that means we're hosting files against the author's wishes?  InVerse and others bring up a good point... people might think twice about hosting their work here if they might not be able to take it back later.  The site's not going to be very successful as an archive if everyone is too afraid to submit their work.

As ridiculous as these requests may seem (well, really, they are ridiculous and stupid, IMO -- who the hell cares where your work is hosted) the site still has to cater to authors if it wants to have their support.  A harsh "submit it and it's ours" policy will put a lot of people off.  Ideally the site would want to make everyone happy -- I don't think this policy accomplishes that.  Looks to me like its only function is to make the staffs' jobs easier.

Deathlike2

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2008, 02:00:40 pm »
Even if that means we're hosting files against the author's wishes?  InVerse and others bring up a good point... people might think twice about hosting their work here if they might not be able to take it back later.  The site's not going to be very successful as an archive if everyone is too afraid to submit their work.

As ridiculous as these requests may seem (well, really, they are ridiculous and stupid, IMO -- who the hell cares where your work is hosted) the site still has to cater to authors if it wants to have their support.  A harsh "submit it and it's ours" policy will put a lot of people off.  Ideally the site would want to make everyone happy -- I don't think this policy accomplishes that.  Looks to me like its only function is to make the staffs' jobs easier.

It is the issue that I think is being addressed specificly. I agree with Nightcrawler that hacks can't just disappear at the whim of the author "just because they said so". I don't think this site is meant to be a personal hack hosting site like say SMWCentral is for SMW hacks. On the other hand, I completely understand InVerse wanting some control... (you can't have it all for sure though)

I think there can/should be a limit to being able to remove your own hacks. The question ultimately is where you draw the line. The policy is there to make the staff's job easier, but it doesn't properly address some legitimate issues...
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Disch

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2008, 02:12:10 pm »
True.  This is actually an interesting problem.

Perhaps there could be a way to flag some submitters as 'abusive' and apply these more strict rules to them?  Like if a certain percentage of an author's submissions are removed or something.  That only solves the problem retroactively though (can't deal with abusive behavior until after you've been abused).  But I don't see how you can preempt something like this without getting on a lot of people's bad side.

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2008, 02:19:05 pm »
But I don't see how you can preempt something like this without getting on a lot of people's bad side.

That's the sad part. No matter what we do, there will always be people who disagree with it. If there is a site as big as this one there are going to be negative feelings towards it from some people. If we are too lenient some people will say we are spineless idiots who accept everything. If we are too harsh we'll be the evil dictators. There is really nothing we can do about it. That's why we have to focus on having a policy that is the most effective for what we envision for the site. Pleasing as most people as possible can only be a secondary problem here.

We want to discourage deleting of files. We think everything released to the internet should be archieved. Of course the "everything" part is what will alienate a lot of people again. So many propably that it becomes a problem again. We most likely won't have completely free deletion capabilities in any case. We have to draw the line somewhere else I think. But where? We're certainly for every input you guys give us.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2008, 02:21:24 pm »
True.  This is actually an interesting problem.

Perhaps there could be a way to flag some submitters as 'abusive' and apply these more strict rules to them?  Like if a certain percentage of an author's submissions are removed or something.  That only solves the problem retroactively though (can't deal with abusive behavior until after you've been abused).  But I don't see how you can preempt something like this without getting on a lot of people's bad side.

I don't think that's normally an issue on the submitting side... I'd say this manifests itself most of the time as "screw RHDN, I don't want my hacks hosted here anymore" or "screw this, I don't want anyone to find/have my hacks anymore".

That seems to be the case with a lot of the "politics" that are around here. Luckily I don't make those decisions.. cause I'd suck.  :D
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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2008, 05:06:54 pm »
Well, since you're publicly stating that you have no intention of following copyright law, I would recommend that you also unlock the "Where To Get ROMs Thread".

There's also a possible side effect to this new policy that you failed to take into consideration. I, for one, will not be submitting any of the new translations, documents or utilities that I'll hopefully have completed by the end of the year. I might be the only one who feels this way, but based on Bongo`s reaction in this thread and a couple of well known hackers comments via IM, I'm guessing I won't be.

Why do you always do a drive by post on big issues like this? Why take the time to make a smartass comment and disappear instead of, you know, an actual discussion?
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Piotyr

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Re: Site: Revised RHDN Policy
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2008, 05:58:01 pm »
Even if that means we're hosting files against the author's wishes?

What about the fans? Its not our faults that internal politics got an author pissed off and then we are suffering for it. The point of these hacks and translations in the first place are so people can enjoy them no? If every author started deleting his stuff at their random whims more people like me would be downloading everything on the site and taxing the servers so we don't lose anything unlike now where I trust that the files will be there and download them when I need it to play.
There are a lot of translated games and hacks on this site I want to play sometime and will be downloading when I finish the games I am currently playing or when I have time to play them. Are you telling me I should go download them now "Just in case" so I don't miss my chance or have to search the net for them later?
This opens a lot of issues such as the afore mentioned taxing of the servers, people having archives of outdated hacks/translations and spreading those around when people ask for them.

You have to think of the fans as well as the authors because they are the same community.