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Author Topic: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?  (Read 312998 times)

generalleoff

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #220 on: March 27, 2008, 04:31:10 pm »
See that 4-3 trap thing is really bad level design. If thats rely how it is meant to work then someone over at Hudson needed to be beat down in the parking lot. I would suspect data corruption. Many cases exist in this game where you really can get stuck just for making simple errors like choosing to jump on the wrong platform and several cases exist where the flag pole is so far away from the jump platform that it is imposable to get better then 800 points. But this is the only case I know where it is deliberate. A warp back to 1-1 would be annoying but fine but trapping the player in a small room with nothing to do but let the timer run out is just bad. Unfair game play like that is NOT very Nintendo like... But I guess thats why it's only available on a crappy Japanese computer. :)

Ever play super mario bros 2? That game is piss hard too, even in the super mario all stars version. Imagine how much worst it is in the original version that didn't have game saves. Also note that the timer moves faster in the msx so the wait isn't as bad as it is in this hack.

I do not see how the difficulty level of SMB2j has anything to do with this. SMB2j was designed to be hard but it was also designed to be fair and fun. In that game a player can screw him/her self and have to warp backwards instead of forwards but he/she can not get stuck in a room with nothing to do but let time run out. There is simply no justifiable excuse for trapping the player in a room regardless of how much faster the clock on the PC88 ran. At no point whatsoever in a Mario game should the player be put in a position where the only option is death. Thats something SEGA might do but not Nintendo :) Cheap does not equal hard.

Hudson simply did some stuff they should not have done. Some of the things they have done where fine on the PC88 but become issues on the NES. Others are just bad no matter what. We are only talking about at most 2% of the game though. The rest is really solid and well designed. All of the games issues are pretty minor and easily correctable without altering the intended design of the level in any serious way.

The invisible block issues I noted in the screen shots (flag pole and passable solid wall) I posted for example are super easy to correct without harming the level design. Just move those blocks one square left. A handful of places exist where the player can get stuck due to poor platform placement but this can be corrected. If you place a background layer title next to an enterable horizontal pipe Mario will get behind that object when entering the pipe. This is easily fixed. The player should also be able to reach 5000 points on all flag poles. A player can VERY easily become stuck in those openings designed only to let small Mario pass but this can not be blamed on Hudson :)

Anyway I wasn't going to bring up these minor technical issues and only concentrate on severe level bugs but that trap room really annoyed me.

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #221 on: March 27, 2008, 04:40:38 pm »
Quote
At no point whatsoever in a Mario game should the player be put in a position where the only option is death.

there exists at least 3 places so far in the game where this is the case, and two where it's blatantly obvious that was the intent and not careless level design.  the first is in that one block pile in  2-3 where if you're small and trap in the mushroom you will be trapped.  the second is in 3-1 where you can go over the pole only to die.   there is also a spot in 1-2 where you can get trapped if you fall down from the between the bricks near the ceiling.  that one is not so clear if it's a deliberate trap or not.

so the trap in 4-3 is not some random occurrence :)


Quote
The invisible block issues I noted in the screen shots (flag pole and passable solid wall) I posted for example are super easy to correct without harming the level design. Just move those blocks one square left. A handful of places exist where the player can get stuck due to poor platform placement but this can be corrected. If you place a background layer title next to an enterable horizontal pipe Mario will get behind that object when entering the pipe. This is easily fixed. The player should also be able to reach 5000 points on all flag poles.

invisible block issues:  the one next to the wall:  i've played the level many times and never have accidentally gone thru the wall.  even if it does happen once in a while, not a big enough deal to modify the level design imo.  the one near the flag pole, again does not affect game play significantly and thus is not worth a deviation from the level design.  the only time i deviate from level design is when the engine requires it for proper game play.  this usually only is around pipes and also bowser's room.

backgrounds and pipes: if you want to give me a list of where there are sideways pipes next to background objects i'll go and correct them.  I think i recall seeing one when i was play testing it.

flag poles:  If in SMBS mario can hit 5000 on those levels, then either the physics needs to be adjusted in SMB or the flag pole moved closer.  but in SMBS if you can't hit 5000 then it would not make sense to adjust them in the port.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 04:54:26 pm by frantik »

rbudrick

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #222 on: March 27, 2008, 05:19:41 pm »
The trap room in 4-3 had a blue background, iirc.  Minor, but I figured I'd point it out.  There's pics of it in that DP thread where I first mentioned it.

-Rob

generalleoff

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #223 on: March 27, 2008, 06:18:49 pm »
I jumped though that wall my first time playing the level and I whenever I want. I guess it's just my play style. I have been playing SMB for 22 years and I play like a speed runner. I'm hardly ever standing still and I never let go of the run button.

I'm not suggesting you alter yer goal for a 1:1 port though. Just so thats clear. I just have a differing opinion on how the game should be ported. When/if I ever do my conversion I will be correcting these little things that I see as errors. Both ports are valid as far as I am concerned so just keep doing what yer doing.

Eventually I would like to do a three game muti ROM with SMB, SMBS, and SMB2j all running on the SMB2j engine with the original SMB graphics. Thats being overly ambitious though for someone with very little hacking/programing skills. I'm more about hardware. Plus in about three months I'll be heading off to Navy (US) boot camp and training as an ET. I'll proly forget all about a SMB multi ROM by then :)

Anyway I will list off the instances where the pipe glitch happens from background objects. I think it happens at least twice but it could just be the one time. Proly the one you already know about.

Karatorian

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #224 on: March 27, 2008, 07:11:01 pm »
Since this project started, I've been saving all the patches released, even the buggy ones. Not for any particular reason, perhaps for posterity, perhaps just because I'm a strange cookie. However, frantik fixed the world 6 patch so quickly that I didn't manage to get a copy of the bad one. Does anyone have it?

Going through the wall in some cases in a know glitch in the SMB engine. If SMBS's leve design happens to make it easier to pull off in some places, well so be it. As for traps and such, I've been in favor of an accurate port. Part of what sparked the sudden internet popularity of SMBS was it's reputation as feindishly difficult. If that includes some cheap tactics, I'm fine with it.

While I'm not sure of frantik's position on the matter, I firmly belive that ROM hackers have no basis on which to tell others not to hack thier hacks. Therefore, I'd have no objections to others using my work to create a version more to thier liking, as long as proper credit was given and an effort was made not to generate confusion between the two hacks.

The next task I'm going to be workin' on is cleaning up the Red Piranha Plant code. It jumps around quite a bit to get it to fit in the original ROM. Since I don't need to worry about maintaing the exact size of various functions, etc. I can proably condense it somewhat. It will also be an opportunity to look into how a new enemy can be added to SMB, which will be helpful with future hacks. Once I'm done with that, I'll look into implimenting some new stuff, yay!
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Googie

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #225 on: March 27, 2008, 08:39:27 pm »
While I'm not sure of frantik's position on the matter, I firmly belive that ROM hackers have no basis on which to tell others not to hack thier hacks. Therefore, I'd have no objections to others using my work to create a version more to thier liking, as long as proper credit was given and an effort was made not to generate confusion between the two hacks.


I'll have a Heineken for you, cause you rock...  :beer:

I don't see the prollem if people wanna finish dead hacks, there's a few hacks out there I wanna finish myself cause people been waiting for years for authors to finish'em but they're gone. I asked one author if he'd have a prollem if someone wanted to finish his hack, he read the PM and never bothered replying back to me, what a busta. I should finish it anyway lol!

I remember when I finished this hack, it was dead for years. All that needed to be one was edit 11 levels, of course I gotta give credit where it's due... ^^'

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #226 on: March 27, 2008, 11:09:40 pm »
Quote
While I'm not sure of frantik's position on the matter, I firmly belive that ROM hackers have no basis on which to tell others not to hack thier hacks. Therefore, I'd have no objections to others using my work to create a version more to thier liking, as long as proper credit was given and an effort was made not to generate confusion between the two hacks.

I agree.. especially in this hack since it's very much an "open source" project in the sense that we're exchanging ideas and even code publicly :)

and sorry I don't have some of the in between world 6 patches i didnt bother to save them

Karatorian

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #227 on: March 28, 2008, 03:04:08 am »
Well, I hope this doesn't end up a dead hack that needs someone else to finish. But if anyone feels like doing more than a straightforward port, with improvements to percived designe flaws, etc. I'd have no objections.

As for my philosophy on the matter, it's simple. Rom hacks exist because of the work of the original programmers, designers, and artists. Hacks exist without explicit permission and it's hypocritical to expect that others ask you for permission when you never did in the first place. While ROM hacking is legal (and I'd argue, ethical too), the simple fact is that without building on the hard work of others, the hacks are nothing. So if someone wants to build on my work (which in turn builds on the work of others) I see no problem with it. In fact, I applaude it.

As for open source, once this project is finalized, I intend to release a package that has all ASM modifications and all custom tools source code. Of course, the original SMB code is owned by big N and the level desings are copyright Hudson Soft, so it's a little too legally grey to really be considred open source, but the source will be ouyt there any way.

I appologize if this post is too philosophical to be of any use to anyone, I'm really drunk right now.

P.S. I'll check those bugs out sometime after I'm sober; Good night youz guyz. (That's new englander for "y'all".)
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frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #228 on: March 28, 2008, 10:33:32 pm »
it's turned into a regular party in here haha  :laugh: :beer:

finally figured out how to adjust the swimming height correctly so now water levels will be correct  :thumbsup:

SMB2J-2Q

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #229 on: March 29, 2008, 12:41:35 am »
Please do not kill off this hack. Please don't...

I really would like to see you finish Worlds 7 and 8 on this.

Thank you,



Ben

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #230 on: March 29, 2008, 02:27:06 am »
i'm gonna finish copying the levels over don't worry lol

SMB2J-2Q

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #231 on: March 30, 2008, 03:21:37 am »
Frantik, Karatorian,

I noticed in World 5-2 for SMBS there are the islands that you first see in World 1-3 and the blue water graphics that you first see in World 3-1. Around the middle of the stage (5-2) there are cloud block platforms. They're all missing in the SMBS for NES hack.

~Ben

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #232 on: March 30, 2008, 04:01:17 am »
yes that is due to the fact you can either have islands or cannons and i chose cannons because it affects game play more.  also if you want to enable clouds you cannot have breakable bricks and the level has breakable bricks, so again game play wins out over graphics.  as for the water it's not possible to make it go that high in the SMB engine.  that level is one of the most changed graphically i would say.. but the gameplay is the same.

Karatorian

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #233 on: April 02, 2008, 08:25:54 pm »
I've produced a new version of the expanded world 1 through 6 based on the latest 5 and 6 patch. I've also fixed the halfway points. My earlier versions simply had the halfway data from the 1 through 4 patch, which, obviously didn't work for worlds 5 and 6. That's been rectified by trivially disabling the halfway page code as suggested by frantik.

Also included is new experimental Red Pirahna Plant code. Please report any strange Piranha Plant behavior (Red or Green, the code is intertwined) that you encounter. You can get the patch here.

In relation to the various engine limitations mentioned in the last post, I'd like to be able to overcome them, but I don't know what that would entail. Additionally, other ASM hacks will, of course, be higher priority. The water level thing should proabably be pretty easy, but the other two may be pretty complicated.

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Googie

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #234 on: April 02, 2008, 10:18:07 pm »


That's how the Red plant looks on my end, and in the last version, Spiney was where the upside pipes were in 6-4. Now he's near the fire bar. I'll have to watch the videos again... ^^'

SMB2J-2Q

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #235 on: April 03, 2008, 05:27:55 am »


That's how the Red plant looks on my end, and in the last version, Spiney was where the upside pipes were in 6-4. Now he's near the fire bar. I'll have to watch the videos again... ^^'

My whole goal for this project should be: 60% SMB Special original + 40% SMB 1 for NES.

Additional flaws I've discovered:
The stairway is missing in the goal area in World 2-3 (dungeon graphics).
A frenzied Spiny is seen towards the end of World 4-3.
The halfway point in World 5-3 puts Mario at a pit.

Still, keep it coming on Worlds 7 and 8, please...

~Ben (SMB2J-2Q)

rbudrick

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #236 on: April 03, 2008, 11:16:25 am »
Just curious...with the errors found in the original PC8801 disk image, could the glitched image be repaired so one could properly play through it now?  It would be an excellent way to really test these levels.

-Rob

MathUser2929

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #237 on: April 03, 2008, 06:33:55 pm »
Just curious...with the errors found in the original PC8801 disk image, could the glitched image be repaired so one could properly play through it now?  It would be an excellent way to really test these levels.

-Rob

You know there is a patch on the main site right? It fixes world 4-4.

Karatorian

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #238 on: April 03, 2008, 08:07:43 pm »
Damn, I guess I messed that one up pretty bad, doh. I must have done something wrong in the mirrored sprite graphics code, hmm. Honestly, the only reason I released the latest version was to incorporate frantik's latest level fixes. I neglected to adequately test the other changes. As a result of such sloppy practices, I've released severely buggy code. I'll try not to do that again in the future. My apologies.

If I find time tonight, I'll fix it and, this time, be sure to properly test it.
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frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #239 on: April 03, 2008, 09:30:42 pm »
I've released severely buggy code. I'll try not to do that again in the future. My apologies.