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Author Topic: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?  (Read 318776 times)

Agahnim

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #780 on: July 19, 2021, 10:01:02 pm »
well, i don't believe it's a fixable bug but if you leave the big mario to slide over that pipe, then he stuck forever at the end of it.

https://files.fm/f/gg8abahnp

Baggins

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #781 on: July 19, 2021, 10:14:01 pm »
Quote
Baggins, the colors at this point are pretty much done man, the NES and X1 are different machines with different color capabilities, you can't make them look exactly the same.  And the bricks are already red;  in "x1 mode" they're the same color as mario's clothes which are also red.  As far as merging the changes from lost levels, that sounds like a project for someone else... ;D

Oh I can live with the 'red color' although it seems brither in the X1, but pallete of NES doesn't always have 'brighter shades' so if that's only option I can understand.

But the contrast with the red bricks to the magenta/purple trees was pretty cool, and added some variety to the tree levels.

https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/X1/SuperMarioBrosSpecial(J)-World1-3.png

But my guess you are probably up against the NES color limits again... With no way to add different color landforms vs the trees.

When I look at the old color hack that had the first four levels 'colorized' in X1 style. They pretty much made everything 'magenta' in the tree levels, the rocks, the castles, and the trees. So no differentiation.

It's the same or similar problem with the inability to add 'pink' to the coral on the overworld maps too. Without some 'sprite/background' trickery no way to really get around it... Problem with forcing 'static' sprites on top of background layer is that they can 'flicker' if their are enemies on screen....

I wonder if a more 'true' to color version of the game could be handled in Meson XML? upgrade, or in the Super Mario Deluxe engine (GBC allowed for more color the NES)?

For the fun of it would be great to see ground up updated version for the SNES in the style of All-Stars!


Superjustinbros

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #782 on: July 19, 2021, 10:21:39 pm »
There's an error/inconsistency with the upside-down pipes, which is mostly a holdover from the original NES port:


Vertical pipe tips in the original game use the same tiles, regardless of what direction they're facing, instead of a unique "upside down" graphic for the downwards-facing pipes.

Baggins

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #783 on: July 19, 2021, 10:24:23 pm »
Eek besides the colors of the pipes still wrong in that level area, where's the fence? Its disappeared! It was there in the last version...


Another thing I notice between X1 and NES also likely due to color limitations (and sharp's use of dithering for inbetween colors) is that "solid" step blocks (like you see at end of level, or during middle of level like in 1-1), tend to be highly contrasing briht red vs yellow/white dither. But looks like a lemon yellow color more or less.

While the ground bricks/stone are basic white/black/red color.

https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/X1/SuperMarioBrosSpecial(J)-World1-1.png

I see that you were forced to use more of the standard brown/tan (you switched it up to a red/tan) of the original SMB. Same color scheme also used by the ground brick/stonework.

https://nesmaps.com/maps/SuperMarioBrothers/SuperMarioBrosWorld1-1Map.html

Definitely an example where the NES just shows its limitations in colors on screen at one time.

Only way I could see possibly of getting around that would be to use yellow red color scheme of the coin blocks 'yellow' but that wouldn't work would it? Coin blocks are animated, and sprite layer? There is only so many sprite that can be on screen at once, before flicker kicks in.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 10:37:21 pm by Baggins »

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #784 on: July 19, 2021, 10:38:31 pm »
well, i don't believe it's a fixable bug but if you leave the big mario to slide over that pipe, then he stuck forever at the end of it.

https://files.fm/f/gg8abahnp

yeah I knew about that, it's an original engine bug though

But the contrast with the red bricks to the magenta/purple trees was pretty cool, and added some variety to the tree levels.

https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/X1/SuperMarioBrosSpecial(J)-World1-3.png

if you zoom in on the purple-ish trees you can see they are made of two colors using dithering.  There's just not a way to have the trees be purpleish and then have the bricks be red in the same level. 


There's an error/inconsistency with the upside-down pipes, which is mostly a holdover from the original NES port

Vertical pipe tips in the original game use the same tiles, regardless of what direction they're facing, instead of a unique "upside down" graphic for the downwards-facing pipes.

Yeah.. that one I feel like the upside down pipe tips just looks better despite not being 100% accurate.  And Baggins there's fences in that level just not that exact spot

Agahnim

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #785 on: July 19, 2021, 10:53:13 pm »
1) two hammer bugs in this video: https://files.fm/f/eyccvt4k8
  • when u have the hammer and you re at the edge of the left screen, half of the hammer disappears
  • when mario moving forward he is shorter than standing position, so if moving forward with the hammer, there is empty space between mario and hammer. You can see that at the end of this video

2) right before I hit that block, the hud blinks like crazy: https://files.fm/f/tzncp4kf9

lilpuddy31

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #786 on: July 19, 2021, 11:14:12 pm »
1) two hammer bugs in this video: https://files.fm/f/eyccvt4k8
  • when u have the hammer and you re at the edge of the left screen, half of the hammer disappears
  • when mario moving forward he is shorter than standing position, so if moving forward with the hammer, there is empty space between mario and hammer. You can see that at the end of this video

2) right before I hit that block, the hud blinks like crazy: https://files.fm/f/tzncp4kf9
The first part of #1 is because that is the overscan area. No way around that I don't think
For #2, it is probably doing that because of how many sprites are on the screen, the evidence of the slow down points to that as well

Agahnim

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #787 on: July 19, 2021, 11:21:43 pm »
The first part of #1 is because that is the overscan area. No way around that I don't think
Are u sure about that? because you can see mario just fine and wall tiles too. I really don't know about how smb engine works

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #788 on: July 20, 2021, 12:57:32 am »
Are u sure about that? because you can see mario just fine and wall tiles too. I really don't know about how smb engine works

the power up sprite drawing routine doesn't draw half the sprite when it gets really close to the edge of the screen.  Watch a mushroom scroll off the screen sometime in slow motion.

And yeah that section in 3-4 is really laggy, possibly the worst section still in the game. I even took out a barrel from v1.0 but it still lags hard.  The coin block routine will usually lag the game whenever there are 4+ sprites on the screen

Baggins

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #789 on: July 20, 2021, 02:30:30 am »
Ya, dithering adds more color, even if dithering was used on NES, there are only so many tiles and colors that can be used... Its just doesn't have same level of colors of a X1 PC...

The NES could do what 13 background colors usually? PCs could do roughtly 16 + shades using dithering.... and X1 can do 8 colors + dithering? Yep, counted on tree map 1-3 that its definitely about 8 colors + dithering' being used to creation illusion of addiotnal colors, but it uses largely: Black, white, green, cyan, yellow, red, blue, and magenta. With dithering it adds "green/cyan" (sea green?), "red/magenta" (violet/purple), yellow/white (lemon), green/black (dark green). So illusion of 12 colors.

"Ordinarily, the NES can display 13 different background colours, and 12 different sprite colours, giving a total of 25 colours on-screen, at once. However, using PPU trickery, one can display all of the NES' 64 palette values at once."

http://nesdev.com/NESTechFAQ.htm

There's an error/inconsistency with the upside-down pipes, which is mostly a holdover from the original NES port:


Vertical pipe tips in the original game use the same tiles, regardless of what direction they're facing, instead of a unique "upside down" graphic for the downwards-facing pipes.

So Frantik, what bout that missing fence? Or adjusting those pipes to be green, like in some of the SMB1 night levels too (not all night levels had grey bricks)...
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 02:45:27 am by Baggins »

FUTURA

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #790 on: July 20, 2021, 05:06:14 pm »
As I've said before, I'd really love a faithful dithered version of this so it literally looks like it was ported directly from the X1. So I fully support that decision if it happens.
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shanem

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #791 on: July 20, 2021, 05:30:46 pm »
This might just be me but the "floatey" numbers when defeating an enemy seems to be going up too high. I'm not sure if this was intentional to mimic the PC version or not (or even if that version goes that high).

Edit: Or maybe it's just slower. Something seems different about it.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 05:36:03 pm by shanem »

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #792 on: July 20, 2021, 08:01:32 pm »
As I've said before, I'd really love a faithful dithered version of this so it literally looks like it was ported directly from the X1. So I fully support that decision if it happens.

I've said it before too, it's not possible to create a "faithful" dithered version because X1 uses 8 colors per sprite and NES only 4.  All you can do is make some gimmick version.  And on top of that it will look like crap on real hardware or people using NTSC filters to mimic real hardware.  So there's no point.

Shanem, there shouldn't be any changes to the floaty numbers

Agahnim

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #793 on: July 20, 2021, 08:35:17 pm »
the manually get-in-the-pipe at the end of the stages i believe it was manually because of the limitations of the system. I believe on nes port should remain automatically


MathUser2929

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #794 on: July 20, 2021, 08:59:08 pm »
No way, that is fun.

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #795 on: July 20, 2021, 09:19:23 pm »
I agree is it fun, plus in at least one level you have to jump a gap to go in the pipe.

At this point guys please just let me know about things that look broken or cause issues with game play, etc.  :woot!:

Baggins

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing \"SMB Special\" for NES?
« Reply #796 on: July 20, 2021, 10:14:30 pm »
I've said it before too, it's not possible to create a "faithful" dithered version because X1 uses 8 colors per sprite and NES only 4.  All you can do is make some gimmick version.  And on top of that it will look like crap on real hardware or people using NTSC filters to mimic real hardware.  So there's no point.

Shanem, there shouldn't be any changes to the floaty numbers

For things are sprites and what things are background tiles? I thought the dithered stuff was largely the background tiles? It appears in the enemies and items too? Most of the backgorund tiles seem to be 4 colors at most. But maybe with dithering its 'six'?

The X1 can only do 8 colors maximum on screen apparently anyways, from what I was reading. Hence the heavy use of dithering to add more colors. I could only count 8 colors total when I checked different maps.... 2-3 forest for example being red, black, white, yellow, green, cyan, blue, and magenta.

The problem with NES though is it can have 13 colors on screen but only four sets of color tiles, each tile only has 3 colors + shared background color. So its really more like 12 colors at the most (plus one background color)... It takes a lot of creativity to utilize those 12 colors over limited four tiles each with their four color combination (its possible to have up to 255 tile designs possible on screen but only those four color combinations, or switching the sprites on the fly for animation, additional colors can be made to appear by switching tiles for a new tile and color combination toe create animated backgorudn element, or blinking item). Also special chips to change some background sprites on the fly/morph/shift them etc...

There are tricks to force more colors on screen but those won't necessarily work on hardware, or they are gonna be very fuzz/flickery.

But ya its a system with limitations, and artists who work within it are geniuses. Some of the late NES stuff was oozing with detail/texture, and almost looked like impossible number of colors on screen!

https://nesrocks.com/blog/nes-graphics/?fbclid=IwAR3ms0VU1inqRxabt9WLHxlBoixSp0T9jQEgKym0b4vY-7NyU5DLfJQn7DM


All I can say if someone wants dithered they more likely gonna have to do the work for themselves, I can understand Frantik's position of not wanting to work on it... What' the point if you can't actually add all combinations of dithered colors due to the four tile color limit? With dithered colors Special actually gets closer to "12 colors" on screen at once. 3-4 'pseudo colors' from dithering. Nes can't do that.

July 20, 2021, 10:16:32 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I agree is it fun, plus in at least one level you have to jump a gap to go in the pipe.

At this point guys please just let me know about things that look broken or cause issues with game play, etc.  :woot!:

Also some secrets hidden by bypassing some of the pipes, blocks behind the pipe, or even passages to other half of the map... Like on level has a literal shortcut for small mario if you get into it... Does 'auto-sliding' still work if you get into a gap as large mario?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 10:23:37 pm by Baggins »

thanksgoogle

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #797 on: July 21, 2021, 03:56:54 am »
I just finished the game, great job! I only noticed two issues, and one of them might be on my end

- The last Koopa on the mushroom near the end of World 3-2 was a jumping Paratroopa in the original SMB Special rather than a regular Koopa as it is in this hack. This one:



- After I beat the game the text of the credits were flickering rapidly and it wasn't possible to read them. Was going to record a video of it but my computer crashed lol. Could've been the emulator I was using, I'll try to get another video later maybe

These are more like suggestions:

- The last area of World 2-3 with the castle and black sky is actually above ground and plays the above ground music, rather than underground, despite how it looks. I think in vanilla SMB, the music is dependent on what type of level it is, but you might be able to bypass those limits depending on how much you've modified the engine, I'm not sure. If it's not possible though then w/e

- The sea bricks above water might look better if the green palette was changed to this color for those two rooms. It also effects the pipes/trees/etc. but they still look fine. Again though, not a huge issue
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 04:14:00 am by thanksgoogle »

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #798 on: July 21, 2021, 10:53:49 am »
- The last Koopa on the mushroom near the end of World 3-2 was a jumping Paratroopa in the original SMB Special rather than a regular Koopa as it is in this hack. This one:

ah good catch, I've updated that and it'll appear in the next release

Quote
- After I beat the game the text of the credits were flickering rapidly and it wasn't possible to read them. Was going to record a video of it but my computer crashed lol. Could've been the emulator I was using, I'll try to get another video later maybe

which emulator are you using?  I am using a trick to turn on the PPU later and turn it off earlier, but it works properly on my real NES and all emulators I tried

Quote

- The last area of World 2-3 with the castle and black sky is actually above ground and plays the above ground music, rather than underground, despite how it looks. I think in vanilla SMB, the music is dependent on what type of level it is, but you might be able to bypass those limits depending on how much you've modified the engine, I'm not sure. If it's not possible though then w/e

- The sea bricks above water might look better if the green palette was changed to this color for those two rooms. It also effects the pipes/trees/etc. but they still look fine. Again though, not a huge issue

interesting about the music, it's not that hard to change, maybe i'll do it.  And the bricks to me look fine, I know they're not the same exact color but just imagine  them being dry and looking slightly different than underwater  :laugh:

Baggins

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #799 on: July 21, 2021, 06:00:29 pm »
I just finished the game, great job! I only noticed two issues, and one of them might be on my end

- The last Koopa on the mushroom near the end of World 3-2 was a jumping Paratroopa in the original SMB Special rather than a regular Koopa as it is in this hack. This one:



- After I beat the game the text of the credits were flickering rapidly and it wasn't possible to read them. Was going to record a video of it but my computer crashed lol. Could've been the emulator I was using, I'll try to get another video later maybe

These are more like suggestions:

- The last area of World 2-3 with the castle and black sky is actually above ground and plays the above ground music, rather than underground, despite how it looks. I think in vanilla SMB, the music is dependent on what type of level it is, but you might be able to bypass those limits depending on how much you've modified the engine, I'm not sure. If it's not possible though then w/e

- The sea bricks above water might look better if the green palette was changed to this color for those two rooms. It also effects the pipes/trees/etc. but they still look fine. Again though, not a huge issue

Looks like another place where the background will need to be modified to add the tree instead of the hill too... I wonder how much left to change backgrounds to mach the original game backgrounds are left?


Frantik I tried your game in 3D Sen and it works 90%! Some glitchyness with some of the clouds, but small clouds and tufts of green plants from Special actually 3Dize pretty well! The bonus Bee actually went 3dized to a point, at least no glitchyness.