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Author Topic: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?  (Read 300203 times)

TRIFORCE89

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #660 on: May 09, 2021, 04:37:14 pm »
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I will probably offer the option to switch to the regular NES SMB palette, but before I was thinking of making the option more prominent, now it might be more of an "easter egg" or just a button option
Can't speak for others but personally, I'd prefer the NES palette as the default and the X1 variant as the button code easter egg. Any chance of there being two versions for choice of dominate palette? Or, I don't know if you're exploring having save functionality (I saw a high-score save patch for the old hacks before) - but if so, maybe the palette selection can be saved to avoid a button code input everytime.

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And I also decided this hack needs a title screen that makes it stand out from the other ones.. recreating the X1 title screen looks too much like existing hacks
Fair enough. But, if it helps I was planning on deleting this one after your new one goes live. I like an "official" look and Hudson copyright, but this new one is good too. I like just how large and pronounced your "Special" text is. Kind of reminds me of the "Deluxe" in the GBC title. But the "for NES" plaintext feels a little out of place.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2021, 07:46:02 pm by TRIFORCE89 »

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #661 on: May 09, 2021, 09:20:06 pm »
I don't know if you're exploring having save functionality (I saw a high-score save patch for the old hacks before) - but if so, maybe the palette selection can be saved to avoid a button code input everytime.

Yes it would save the selection for next.  I was originally thinking to make a menu at the start and you could pick either one, but the blue/red started to grow on me and I don't feel like doing the selection screen, plus that would get just as annoying having to pick every time.  To change colors it's probably just require pressing select when the game is paused, or something simple like that, not some hidden code

As far as the title screen, no need to delete your hack, but trying to mimic the original title screen does look almost identical to either yours or the X1 version (depending on the colors).  It also looks like many other SMB hacks with minimal title screen changes.

  When I was planning on having the palette selection screen I was thinking the maybe having that main title screen I posted, and then a screen where you picked the colors, and THEN it would show the replica title screen, but that's so many button presses just to start the game.

Thanks for the feedback on the "FOR NES" part.. wasn't 100% sure about that or the Push Start text either.. but I spent so long on the "SPECIAL" graphic I definitely want to use it!  :laugh:

niuus

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #662 on: May 09, 2021, 11:55:33 pm »
Yes I was thinking I would include the "Congrats" screen and credits..

at the end of the game there's a credits sequence


I started experimenting with the Sharp X1 look and decided to NOT use any of the dithered tiles, they just look too horrible on NES with composite output.  The Sharp X1 only has 8 colors, so there's a lot of dithering to try to make new colors.  NES has slightly better color capabilities, though it has its own limits with only 4 colors allowed per sprite.  Having looked at a bunch of Sharp X1 screens though, the red/blue aspect of them seems to be the dominate charateristic, so I feel like that can be brought over.  I'm ending up with a kind of "hybrid" scheme that looks good on NES but still is reminiscient of the X1.  I will probably offer the option to switch to the regular NES SMB palette, but before I was thinking of making the option more prominent, now it might be more of an "easter egg" or just a button option that is mentioned in the manual (vs an on screen menu or whatever)




(bonus: some enemies allowed to show up on the first screen of the level)

And I also decided this hack needs a title screen that makes it stand out from the other ones.. recreating the X1 title screen looks too much like existing hacks




I hope to have a version ready for play testing soon.. just wanna get the credit sequence done and maybe some other minor stuff
Wow, man. Looking great! Though i loved the X1 original look, it's cool to at least have an hybrid, after all. Really makes it stand out.

Loving the title screen.

shanem

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #663 on: May 10, 2021, 12:24:06 am »
  When I was planning on having the palette selection screen I was thinking the maybe having that main title screen I posted, and then a screen where you picked the colors, and THEN it would show the replica title screen, but that's so many button presses just to start the game.

Thanks for the feedback on the "FOR NES" part.. wasn't 100% sure about that or the Push Start text either.. but I spent so long on the "SPECIAL" graphic I definitely want to use it!  :laugh:

Why not have the first screen lock without button presses and clear after a few seconds and make the color palette screen and second title-screen press able? 

MathUser2929

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #664 on: May 10, 2021, 09:22:22 am »
If possible, you should leave the graphic changes. It makes it feel reallydifferent. Feels more different.

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #665 on: May 10, 2021, 10:35:47 am »
If possible, you should leave the graphic changes.

Are you talking about the dithering? (The alternating checkerboard pattern of pixels?)  The "X1 style" version has a few tiles dithered but they didn't really do a complete job, only the pipes, hills and ? blocks had that treatment, but practically every tile is dithered in the original game

I tried it out but using any NTSC filter or looking at a real NES on a CRT, dithering looks really bad; the alternating colors cause weird artifacts and just looks ugly. And the entire reason for the dithering was to create more colors, which can be done without dithering on the NES. 

I fully intended to include the dithered tiles but the more I added them, the worse things looked.  I'd rather just not include any dithered tiles than have some random bits be dithered while the rest is not. Imo the color changes are enough to evoke the feeling of the original and make it feel different from SMB.  And not everybody even likes those changes!

MathUser2929

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #666 on: May 10, 2021, 12:09:16 pm »
I think it looks nice like that. gives the game a different feel.

ShadowOne333

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #667 on: May 10, 2021, 12:34:59 pm »
Lovely work on those last screens, frantik!
The look feels great!

I'm seeing many people requesting the original look of the X1 version.
Even though I like the new hybrid look, for what it's worth seeing how many people are requesting it, and if you allow me to with your permission, frantik, I could work on an optional patch for the hack that makes the graphics and palettes 1:1 with the X1 version, in case you don't want to tackle such a thing.
I'll be more than glad to work on it, so that optional patch can be included with the final release, that's if you want to of course :p

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #668 on: May 10, 2021, 02:02:20 pm »
I could work on an optional patch for the hack that makes the graphics and palettes 1:1 with the X1 version, in case you don't want to tackle such a thing.

The thing is, it's impossible to make a 1:1 conversion of the graphics from X1 to NES.  X1 graphics can have 8 colors per tile, NES can only have 4 per tile, and one of those colors has to be the background color.  Many X1 tiles have too many colors to be 1:1 represented on a NES.  That's because they are using dithering to represent the colors that the NES already has 

You can make something that is more reminiscent of X1, but it's still going to be a "hybrid"... so if it can't be done 1:1, I figure why even bother... especially when it makes the game look worse!  The point of porting to to the NES is to take advantage of the benefits of the NES.  But one thing the NES does not handle very well is dithering.. it causes artifacts/banding/etc that make it look worse than even how the X1 originally looked

When looking at Messatu's "X1 style" version, I realized they only converted a small handful of tiles over to the X1 style... for example they didn't even convert the bushes or modify that palette to use the colors used in X1 (green and cyan). They also didn't even touch the underground palettes at all.  I started working on trying to make as close to 1:1 as possible, and the more I worked on it, the uglier things got.  I'm not gonna spend time making the hack look worse

That being said, there's already way too many versions of this game on this site.. if someone is gonna want to make an "ugly version" as soon as I release mine, it'd be better to incorporate it.  But I honestly don't think there's a way to make an ugly version that is actually proper and not just some gimmick on a few tiles
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 02:14:23 pm by frantik »

ShadowOne333

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #669 on: May 10, 2021, 02:44:31 pm »
Ah you're right, I forgot the original X1 version did use more colors per tile than the standard 4 the NES is capable of. I could still try making it as close as possible.

If you do decide to have that optional patch, I'll be glad to help, if not, that's okay too. :p
I'm still happy with how it's coming along!

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #670 on: May 10, 2021, 04:05:42 pm »
I just want to release one patch and incorporate the options into the one rom.  It's eas(ier) to offer just the original colors and the new colors without graphic changes too.  I could offer THREE skin options to satisfy the various tastes, but I really feel like the mild hybrid look I'm working on is just the right amount of both systems look.  When porting from one system to another, you don't always make a one to one copy of the graphics and everything, if you can you want to make the graphics look better, just like how the gameplay is improved by having the better NES engine.

Maybe once I release the beta for testing if people still really think it needs a dithered mode it could be added in.  But to do it, it needs to be 100%, which is going to look terrible on some stuff.  Like for example, the water levels, the entire screen is dithered, which on a real NES or using an NTSC filter on an emulator creates a giant mess


Banding caused by dithering (example from Messatu's X1 style)



Water levels would have banding across the entire screen

TRIFORCE89

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #671 on: May 10, 2021, 05:37:04 pm »
I once "upgraded" to an S-Video cable on my N64 and it exposed (or introduced? Not a great-quality cable) a whole lot of dithering. My immediate impression was that it made everything look like the surface of a basketball.

There can be a purpose to dithering (see Genesis and PS1), but there isn't a benefit here. The only improved tile in the actual X1 game, to my recollection, was that the Starman had a smiley face. Outside that the actual dithering edits aren't a benefit, as frantik explained.

PowerPanda

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #672 on: May 10, 2021, 05:46:18 pm »
I am of the personal opinion that dithering, as a practice, should never have been a thing, ever. I've almost never seen it not look sloppy, even back in the CRT days. I even did a graphics update of SMB (released here), SMB2j, and Triforce89's SMB Special hack to remove the dithering on the pipes, as it was the only place in the game that dithering was used.

As long as you're focusing on only doing 1 release, I have a request. Can you include the feature where pressing B on the title screen allows you to start at any world (or, if you're including sram, any world you've beaten)? This was the main reason I played Messatu's and Triforce89's version over yours and Karatorian's when I did my layout fix hack, and it is my favorite feature of the Super Mario Game & Watch.

If you're worried about patches coming out right after yours, just as a heads up I will likely be using Triforce89's graphics. I love how he struck a balance between SMB and SMB2j, along with some beta sprites, to make SMBS feel like SMB 1.5. You don't need to account for this; just encourage people to make addendum patches instead of stand-alone patches.

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #673 on: May 17, 2021, 09:14:58 pm »
Working on the end game congrats screen and scrolling credits now


mahou

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #674 on: May 18, 2021, 05:20:11 am »
cool!! excellent progress.
it seems that this hack is on its way to being the definitive version of the game :woot!:

I personally prefer the nes colors, as if the hack was a port of the full game to the console.Although if the colors of x1 were like an easter egg it would be great
Regarding the title screen, I prefer the nes style.
(although of course, it is true that this hack goes beyond all the previous ones with all the exclusive additions of the special version)
Another thing that is also exclusive is the way to enter the game's demo mode, (that is, the original of nes, continues on the title screen)
and the special version (it is as if the player played giving way to the demo of level 1-1)
I know this is something very additional, but could it also apply to the hack ??
It could also be difficult to add , I think
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 05:30:14 am by mahou »

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #675 on: May 18, 2021, 01:36:13 pm »
Another thing that is also exclusive is the way to enter the game's demo mode, (that is, the original of nes, continues on the title screen)
and the special version (it is as if the player played giving way to the demo of level 1-1)
I know this is something very additional, but could it also apply to the hack ??
It could also be difficult to add , I think

Hah you really know the details of this game!  It's unlikely that I will customize the demo.  Right now I actually have the demo completely disabled, but I may turn it back on.. depends on what I do with the title screen.  I want to mimic the X1 title screen but also want something completely original.  Haven't decided how to do both just yet

mahou

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #676 on: May 19, 2021, 05:54:02 am »
Oh yeah ! I am a big fan of Mario and I think the special version is very good, with the new power ups that it adds, it has bugs and hardware limitations but in general it seems like a good Mario game.

shanem

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #677 on: May 25, 2021, 01:01:39 pm »
@mahou

Do you know if the original PC version has skid SFX for Mario like SMB2J does or without like the original SMB1?

mahou

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #678 on: May 25, 2021, 02:32:50 pm »
Sliding sound for Mario and Luigi when skidding in Special version, is that what you mean?
No ,the sound is not present in any of the versions, sharp x1 or nec pc88

frantik

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Re: Anyone Interested in Doing "SMB Special" for NES?
« Reply #679 on: May 25, 2021, 06:48:24 pm »
Implementing the the end game text scroll was long and tedious, possibly the lamest part of this hack!  But it's over now, mostly  :laugh:  I took a bit of liberty to "correct" the misspellings and funky grammar, though I'm not sure exactly how far to go.


One thing that's weird is in Hudson game, they spell some characters like Kuribo as Kuribou.. I don't know if this is a different romanization of the same word or what, but I changed them to match what Nintendo calls them in print literature, which does not have the U on the end.  I noticed there was one new ememy name which ends with OU, "SIGEBOU" (the fireball).. I suspect this should also be SIGEBO to match with Kuribo and Togezo.  If anyone has any insight into this, I'd appreciate it.  I want the text to be free of errors in English and Japanese

Other questions are what is 'Enemy Dispoed By' supposed to mean?  I assume it's "Enemy Designed By" since it follows "Course Design By".. and "Sound Effected By" is funny but also got changed to "Sound Design By"

The final screen is a bit tougher.. not much space to turn "Fly Sky" into something a little more coherent, for example.




Anyways, moving into the final phase of minor tweaks and bug fixes, hopefully should be done very soon