Clones vs Originals

[pianohombre]

I was going to download the ASM2R the other day but just was thinking how bad most clones of popular games are. A lot of the newer stuff is pretty expensive and exclusive to a specific console, so I look to third-party clones. I did get Mighty No. 9 instead of Megaman for awhile, but eventually got 9, 10, and 11. I tried Axiom Verge instead of the newer Metroid games and have Genshin Impact instead of the Tears of the Kingdom (although I did get BotW on Wii u).

Something about the authentic originals makes you pledge loyalty. Some of their new releases are failures but they know how to tickle your fancy with your favorite characters. They know there is a big enough fanbase too they can keep pumping out new games at full price, and then remaster old ones or put a smaller one on portable. The clones will keep you entertained, but they typically fall short. You don't want to play the imitations. You want the game that everyone has their hands on.

What do you think? Gaming mascots only, or do you dare to tread outside the franchise?

[FAST6191]

I do often find would be competitors to a thing (though not sure where Genshin Impact falls in that) suffer the photocopy of a photocopy problem, which is to say copy without truly understanding what made the original good (or at least iterating much to get back there but lack of game theory discussion among game designers is a different topic), and many sequels fail to catch lightning in a bottle twice.

A pity as for many years I have held that Mario Kart is a less than stellar kart racing franchise, for one thing its menus should be as customisable as Super Smash Brothers at the very least. However as nothing has really taken a decent shot at the crown in generations (barring the quasi open world and gated bosses mechanic diddy kong racing on the N64 was that, and I can stand to hear something from the Lego Racers world and possibly even Crash Nitro Kart).

On the flip side the general pokemon formula is a solid one, the games rather less so and I will play almost any of the clones on the GBA instead. Sadly the DS had a few in Japan, the 3ds has even less (Yokai watch is not a good game/franchise).

[Jorpho]

You want the game that everyone has their hands on.

WTF? To hell with what "everyone has their hands on". I want well-designed games that I'm interested in playing.

What a baffling thing to say.

[P41R47]

I was going to download the ASM2R the other day but just was thinking how bad most clones of popular games are.

I would say that is not the case here. AM2R is somewhat of a fan game instead of a clone like the game you mentioned. But since it is and enhanced remake of a an old game... Yeah, it may seem a little too modern in comparison. Even to Super Metroid, it is miles and miles far more similar to Metroid: Zero Mission than anything.
Don't over think it, its free and its a great game. Most people prefer AM2R instead of the official nintendo remake.
Give it a try!

A lot of the newer stuff is pretty expensive and exclusive to a specific console, so I look to third-party clones. I did get Mighty No. 9 instead of Megaman for awhile, but eventually got 9, 10, and 11. I tried Axiom Verge instead of the newer Metroid games

Yeah, i too played those games and i feel they lacked something... Dunno what ;P
Axiom Verge has amazing atmosphere, and great puzzles. But all the different guns are somewhat unnecessary. I only use one or two for the whole game without problem. So i feel that the weapon system needed a re-thinking. Its nice to have multiple options, but if some are really similar to one an another, there is no reason for more of them.
Mighty No. 9, even when it was designed by Mega Man original creator, it didn't tickled me as a good successor. Its is really fast paced an action packed, and thats fantastic, but for some reason i prefer the moody exploration and secret hunting of the later mega man games and the x serie.

If you want a metroidvania that has really good design and its amazingly fun to play, take a look to Guacameele!: Super Turbo Championship Edition.
I loose track on how many times i played that game without feeling bored with it. The beat em up mash up metroidvania design is certainly a good combination.
One thing that may annoy is how big some maps are. But taking the setting and context of the game, it kinda added to the experience.
Another one is La-Mulana, but that is all together a gigantic different beast than a metroidvania experience as it took elements from other games that were also opening the boundaries of the gameplay experience, like Maze of Galliouz and Tower of Dragua.
Its an amazing experience, but the puzzles need a lot of thinking, and since the world is really big, its easy too feel lost in it.
Its a game designed to be played like the old ones, where you write hints on paper and connect hints to fully realise the solution of the puzzle. There is no other gaming experience like this game, and playing it without a guide could take you month to reach the proper end of the game.
Don't be ashamed of using a guide to play it, maybe one spoiler free could be of help.

Something about the authentic originals makes you pledge loyalty. Some of their new releases are failures but they know how to tickle your fancy with your favorite characters. They know there is a big enough fanbase too they can keep pumping out new games at full price, and then remaster old ones or put a smaller one on portable. The clones will keep you entertained, but they typically fall short. You don't want to play the imitations. You want the game that everyone has their hands on.

What do you think? Gaming mascots only, or do you dare to tread outside the franchise?

I love Sonic, and there is no Sonic clone that match up it desing, but recently, a good amount of really good fan games come out, like Sonic Time Twisted, Sonic & The Falling Star and for last Sonic Triple Trouble 16 Bits.
Those games are fantastic and the designer surely knew how to please the fan base (at least, far more than the last official sega games).
In the other hand, we can use the example you brought to the table: AM2R or M:SR. One is kinda over developed with too many thing that deviate a bit too much from the original metroid experience, and the official one is... really lacking in the gamelay and mapping desing side for sure.

So, instead of clinging to clones vs originals, i recommend you to check the fan-gaming side. Usually, the fans make really good games based on their beloved franchise, and as fan games, they are free to go, too

[pianohombre]

AM2R is probably not the best example. There are rave reviews for this fan-game, even praising it better than Super Metroid, but this rare example is an outlier.

I meant clones in general. You know the ones you see on Steam, PSN, or Nintendo eShop. Many of them are quite cheap compared to their counter-parts, for about $5-10.

I got a ps plus membership and the xbox game pass to play the new TMNT game and Bloodstained recently. Bloodstained was good, obvious clone of Castlevania, but I thought it turned flat quick. I ended up getting the Streets of Rage 2 hack Shredder's Re-Revenge and canceling the subscriptions. Somehow those 16-bit graphics look like the PS4 version?? And Bloodstained is about the price of a portable game, or a remaster. For a clone you'd think they'd go low, but there may be some hardcore fans that will roast me for suggesting its value doesn't match its price.

One good example [of a gem IMO] is Super Cyborg. Contra is being cloned pretty frequently as of late. This one is challenging, and the bosses are pretty dope, controls are great, along with the music, and the retro graphics. I'd have to agree with FAST on Crash Bandicoot's version of Mario Kart. If you invited your friends over to play that game expect cancellations.

If you're first reaction is "duh. Of course, these games fall flat. Why would a cheap clone compare to the real thing, that sells out retailers??" that's not the point. Perhaps, you found a clone, or fan-game to outperform the prototype (like P41R47). If so, spill the beans!!

[Jorpho]

I would say that is not the case here. AM2R is somewhat of a fan game instead of a clone like the game you mentioned. But since it is and enhanced remake of a an old game... Yeah, it may seem a little too modern in comparison. Even to Super Metroid, it is miles and miles far more similar to Metroid: Zero Mission than anything.
Don't over think it, its free and its a great game. Most people prefer AM2R instead of the official nintendo remake.

I got most of the way through it myself, but having not played Super Metroid (or Zero Mission) a lot of the puzzle design started to seem increasingly foreign to me and I kept feeling like I was doing things wrong and resolved to come back to it after playing Super Metroid. Which I still haven't done.

I thought it felt like it had a lot of old-fashioned DOS-game sensibilities. Not that that's a bad thing.

If you want a metroidvania that has really good design and its amazingly fun to play, take a look to Guacameele!: Super Turbo Championship Edition.

Free on the Epic store right now! (And the sequel!)

I meant clones in general. You know the ones you see on Steam, PSN, or Nintendo eShop. Many of them are quite cheap compared to their counter-parts, for about $5-10.

That's because they're not very good..? Or at least very short?

Xeodrifter is quite charming, but it doesn't last very long. (Also some of the secrets are practically impossible to find without rubbing up against every wall. I hate that.)

Ol' Akuji the Demon comes to mind as well. (Considering Akuji the Demon was featured in Crystal Crisis, I might have assumed Nicalis was planning to bring it back in a big way, but I guess things kind of fell apart there.)

But then, I don't think you could call those clones just because they're pretty much metroidvanias.

[PowerPanda]

Mighty No. 9 was a travesty. It actually had a really good gameplay loop, but the level design and the bugs killed it. I haven't played Axiom Verge, so I can't say anything about that. But I can't agree with the rest of your premise. Fangames and Spiritual Successors can be excellent.

For fangames, there are 2 that I consider "so good they're canon". That includes AM2R and Megaman Unlimited. Though I must say, Megaman ZX Prequel is pretty fantastic, if you can find it. I was working at getting a good English translation out there, but Hunger Z Ridley disappeared and hasn't returned my messages in almost 1 year.

For spiritual successors, I've seen Guacamelee mentioned a few times as a great Metroidvania. Guacamelee 1 is good, but Guacamelee 2 is flat-out excellent. However, nothing beats the "holy trinity" of Metroidvanias, which is the Ori duology and Hollow Knight. I know I'll probably get murdered in my sleep for saying this, but I think Hollow Knight blows Super Metroid out of the water. Ori and the Will of the Wisps also has the creator of AM2R on staff.

[P41R47]

AM2R is probably not the best example. There are rave reviews for this fan-game, even praising it better than Super Metroid, but this rare example is an outlier.

I meant clones in general. You know the ones you see on Steam, PSN, or Nintendo eShop. Many of them are quite cheap compared to their counter-parts, for about $5-10.

I got a ps plus membership and the xbox game pass to play the new TMNT game and Bloodstained recently. Bloodstained was good, obvious clone of Castlevania, but I thought it turned flat quick. I ended up getting the Streets of Rage 2 hack Shredder's Re-Revenge and canceling the subscriptions. Somehow those 16-bit graphics look like the PS4 version?? And Bloodstained is about the price of a portable game, or a remaster. For a clone you'd think they'd go low, but there may be some hardcore fans that will roast me for suggesting its value doesn't match its price.

One good example [of a gem IMO] is Super Cyborg. Contra is being cloned pretty frequently as of late. This one is challenging, and the bosses are pretty dope, controls are great, along with the music, and the retro graphics. I'd have to agree with FAST on Crash Bandicoot's version of Mario Kart. If you invited your friends over to play that game expect cancellations.

If you're first reaction is "duh. Of course, these games fall flat. Why would a cheap clone compare to the real thing, that sells out retailers??" that's not the point. Perhaps, you found a clone, or fan-game to outperform the prototype (like P41R47). If so, spill the beans!!

Maybe clone is a redundant or unepecific term to use.
Let me explain myself.
Game philosophy rant spoiler:

Spoiler

Bllodstain is not a clone, it follows the Castlevania: Symphony of the Night formula, even on it name, (Ritual of The Night), but expands it and developed it further mostly because it was developed by Koji Igarashi, main developer of Castlevania SOTN. So the term clone is missleading here since a developer who contributed to the existence of the genre is couldn't be the one cloning, instead is the one being cloned

For clones i understand games that are more generic, and simply repeat the tropes without adding anything new or being original on it thematic core (Environmental Station Alpha, Axiom Verge (i found it kinda generic), Xeodrifter, Castle In The Darkness, and the likes) while games like La-Mulana, Guacameele!, Rogue Legacy, Gun Girl 2, Fez (Myst meets Metroid!) or others like those just took elements of the genre and twist them enough to make something unique aesthetically and thematically while retaining the core design philosophy to be recognized of said genre: metroidvanias.

While clones and this other games are from this genre, the difference is usually gigantic not only on demographic scope, but also in quality of the product, professionally speaking.

And yes, some generic games of this genre are also quite fun, even when they doesn't innovate at all on their tropes.

So, for example, Ori & The Blind Forest, could be called a clone?
From my previous reasoning: not at all. Because its a game that not only is thematically and aesthetically unique, it also bring new elements to the genre, developeing it futher.
BUT! (and here is the problem) not all people around take the time to think on genre-defining-games, thats why the label Metroidvania is quite comprehensive and being use to qualify any game that retain the core design choices of Metroid and Castlevania, even when the game in question may or may not be like those games at all.

[close]

[PowerPanda]

Well, with a narrow definition like that, it's no wonder you come away unsatisfied. Any game that creates its own identity doesn't fit.

[P41R47]

Well, with a narrow definition like that, it's no wonder you come away unsatisfied. Any game that creates its own identity doesn't fit.

something similar happened way back in the 90's.
Every game made after Doom was a Doom-like, not a FPS. It was when Half-Life arrived that the term FPS started to gain more attention and games that inproved the formula started to emerge.

With Metroidvania is happening the same thing.
The label Metroidvania is to designate games that are exploration heavy, with upgrades that helps you traverse new areas and unlock new paths through backtracking.
But most of the heavy weights now know on the genre, like the ones you mentioned on your previous post, and some others that are quite inspiring on their approach or aeshetic like Ender Lilies or Dandara: Trials of Fear, are far more developed than the genre defining games, Metroid and Castlevania, in this case.

Metroidvania label kinda missleading nowdays. For a newcomer it may just mean that is a game on the setting of metroid or castlevania.
Probably a new term will emerge soon when a new innovative game (far beyond the masterpieces we have by now) take a new approach and becomes genredefining on its own.
(PROTIP: Metroidvanias are also defined as open-ended plataformers or non-linear side-scrollers)

By the way, one of my favourites is Clash at Demonhead (albeit its a proto-genre game than a full fledged one), and i usually call the metroidvanias games as Clashmaze-like in honor to Clash at Demonhead and Maze of Gallious .
Also, Clashmaze sound ominous and quite fitting to the usual really large set of interconnected rooms of the metroidvanias, full of naty encounters with diverse kind of monsters from different settings...

[PowerPanda]

I actually prefer the genre label "Platform Adventure" games. I think it encapsulate the experience in 2 words, and makes it easier to categorize games on the NES and SNES that are definitely related to Metroid and Castlevania SotN, but don't have some of the staples from those games.

[Spooniest]

FAST6191 said:

the photocopy of a photocopy problem

Technically I've heard it referred to as "Replicative Fading," and it is not just a problem in videogames, but in any medium where a copy can be made of something. Films, music, movies, etc.

There are two ways to approach the idea; the basic one is that if you make a copy of something, there will be a loss in the fidelity of the thing, no matter what; hearing a guitarist play live will never sound exactly the same when you record it and play it back. You can get close enough to where the human ear cannot tell the difference, with the right (expensive) equipment, but there will be a difference, one way or another.

In this case, the style of a creator is being copied, not the game itself. Now, that opens up a big can of artistic worms, just saying.

But the concept holds true, that the copy of the copy of the copy is going to be generally distorted from the original. This doesn't mean that copying other artists is bad; quite the opposite, really. If one artist was not able to learn from another artist by imitation, then it would by definition eliminate any sense of commonality between various works, and make each of them 100% unrelatable.

This is because works of art are all extensions of the common human experience, in one way or another. However, and here's the rub; there is a fine line between where it is a matter of public opinion how well the copier captured the style without just blatantly ripping off the original, and to where it is up to the opinion of the individual person experiencing the art, how well the copier managed to capture the style, the feel of what they are imitating.

This is such a granular question, however, that it can have infinite numbers of answers. Do you think Genshin Impact is enough like Breath of the Wild to where it warrants being experienced by fans of Zelda? Perhaps another individual would disagree.

Forgot where I was going with this and I'm tired

[SegaMan89]

Here is my list of indie games and most of them are clones or solid fan games:
Racing indie games: Victory Heat Rally, 80s Overdrive, Slipstream, Hotshot Racing, Arcade Racing Legends, Retro Highway, Formula Retro Racing, Horizon Chase Turbo, Neodori Forever, SRB2 Kart

2D Platformer indie games: Freedom Planet 1 and 2, Spark The Electric Jester 1-3, Shovel Knight, Beeny, Sonic Time Twisted, Sonic Before and After The Sequel

3D Platformer indie games: Kiwi 64, MacBat 64, Super Kiwi 64, Toree 1 and 2, Yo Noid 2, Sonic Robo Blast 2

Top down indie games: Frido, TinkerCore (for Game Boy Color), Super Imposter Bros. (also Game Boy Color), Inky and The Alien Aquarium (GBA)

Run n Gun indie games: Cuphead, Valfaris, Super Cyborg, Huntdown, Blazing Chrome, Gunlord X, Steel Assault

Metroidvania indie games: Axiom Verge 1 and 2, Bloodstained Ritual of The Night

original Castlevania styled indie games: Bloodstained Curse of The Moon 1 and 2, Lords of Exile

Wario-likes: Pizza Tower, Anton Blast

Ninja Gaiden/Shinobi style indie games: The Messenger, Cyber Shadow

Gauntlet/Alien Syndrome style indie games: Battle Axe, Xeno Crisis

Beat em ups: River City Girls, Coffee Crisis, The Ninja Saviors Return of The Ninja Warriors

Star Fox style indie games: Ex Zodiac

Walking sim indie games: Broken Reality

Mystery/detective indie games: Hypnospace Outlaw

JSR inspired indie games: Butterflies, Hover, Bomb Rush Cyberfunk when that finally releases, Lethal League Blaze

RPGs: Bug Fables, Pier Solar, Sonic SatAM RPGs

Crazy Taxi style: Mile High Taxi (Taxi Chaos sucked)

Shmups: Squad 51 Vs. The Flying Saucers