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Need help with Crystal Editor 3

Started by dawnbomb, August 18, 2022, 11:27:38 AM

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dawnbomb

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CR28wEYihFy2fRYP4-9epLszY-ZcY7aYa8zq3u7DSjk/edit?usp=sharing

Hey everyone! I'm creating a tool i'm calling Crystal Editor 3. It will be a tool many have probably been waiting for a very long time, a simplified game editor creation tool, made to act as a base for all sorts of other editors. I'm new to C#, and could use someone more experienced to give me some of their time. Linked above is a full wireframe i just spent the last 12 hours making sure is overkill (so now im probably going to go sleep for 12 hours) (A wireframe is a complete detailed explanation of a tool, and logistical explanation of now everything works on the outside, as well as how the files are structured and code / pages are, think an extreme mockup). Example screenshots are given from a proof of concept in Microsoft visual studio.

With this kind of tool, i foresee at least 25 games in the first year getting support, due to how easy it is to work with, and it blowing up after that.

My discord is Dawnbomb#3408 and i would really apricate anyone willing to help out.

FAST6191

"No installing python, No installing java, No custom install specific versions, No Command Prompt"
Python and even if java is usually preceded by *spits* would speak to something being multi platform. C# even with mono (which is possibly being sunset as we speak) is not so hot for that one.
No command prompt required is one thing, no command prompt at all is another (if you are about not programming things unless necessary then do you have a superior alternative to chain things together?).
Specific versions usually also arise from the underlying language/framework moving on (guess that sunset mono is better than I thought).
"Because everything is saved in auto-generated folders, users can share editors just by dragging and dropping onto discord."
Will be amusing when discord goes pop and joins teamspeak, mumble, ventrillo, MSN, skype, viber and all the other fallen closed source chat protocols. Also ew discord.

Re: 010 templates. Are they that popular out there in the world or some specific scene? If there was any popular paid editor among ROM hackers that I have seen when floating around over the years it was usually hex workshop (which has its own bookmarking feature I did see some use). Most however go for the free offerings (and between HxD, XVI32, tiny hexer and ICY hexplorer you had most bases covered for general, ROM hacking specific purposes being served by none of those nor the commercial offerings which mostly boiled down to hex workshop, 010 and xways winhex) and ROM hacking specific ones for the table support.

That said a ROM (and presumably could go for file*, and probably want RAM as well https://datacrystal.romhacking.net/ featuring such things) level bookmarking/commenting tool could be something interesting to have.

*in an ideal world then anything with a file system could be broken down by the tool itself. Though you would probably want a file hash option (make it a good one -- we saw hash forced collisions in CRC32 back in the GBA era) to make sure it is the same known file, and if you start doing some kind of pointer awareness then you run into the same problems as any of the editors that allow you to define your own format in a programming approach.

dawnbomb

#2
their also preceded by end users tearing their hair out and throwing your program in the recycling bin. This is probably one of those touch grass moments, as basically every actual human i have ever seen doesn't want to fuck around with installing extra languages to specific versions to their computer to make something run. If i ask a 12 year old how to do this, they will just tell me i'm being stupid and if the program was made for people that it could be used by people without needing third party installs and IT nightmare, then walk away.

Also, really, you don't like discord? You know, if you hate not only discord, but literally every app for speaking with other people, the problem isn't that my program makes it easy to share and collaborate, it's that your crazy antisocial or need to update from literally emailing people to speak to them, were in 2022 old man, not 1985. Even in a dystopian future where discord turns into a terrorist network, we would all just move to a different app.

as for 'are 010 templates popular in the world or a scene' the answer is a incredibly strong yes. 010 provides a framework for files to allow you to code an editor for them much easier, and is also the best in the world at this right now thanks to everything else it provides. The problem, aside from an upfront cost + subscription fee, is that it asks end users to know how to code, that they know templates exist, that they learn how through not so great documentation, and literally doesn't have a official forum or chat room of any kind. It also misses somethings mine would have for a focused development workflow, but thats because 010 is primarily a hex editor not a modding suite. 010 is by a landslide the best hex editor, HxD looks like useless dogshit for children by comparison, and hex workshop simply can't keep up. but it just "isn't" optimized for being a game modding platform, what i seek to create.

As for ram, ram isn't part of actual game files, so it isn't a high priority. While integration is nice, the toolbar feature would allow one to add cheat engine directly as a tool, and click to open whats probably the worlds most universal ram viewer. As for pointers, it would only handle simple pointers, and i already have a method for that, that isn't not a problem. The more obvious problem is that plenty of pointers are not simple pointers, but thats a problem for another day, as what this program brings is already extremely unique and optimizing to any modders workflow.

FAST6191

Are those inclined towards ROM hacking those?
Would also possibly be a http://coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-computers/ moment.
Similarly despite being said ROM hacking, game modding, computer fiddling type the aggravation I have seen said kids go through to install minecraft mods is crazy.


I don't hate chat protocols as a concept, far from it actually; I hate closed ones you can't run your own server for (Discord being both on top of being run by bad moderation, though the mere possibility someone else gets to dictate what I can and can't say on my "own" server is enough as who knows what idiots they will bring on in the future or ideas they adopt, which is why it is destined to fall over/be abandoned).

010 pulled ahead of hex workshop in your estimation? Interesting. I am a few years out from current on both but I had always found 010 somewhat clunky (though enough extra features still present to count) even if knew what you were doing. That said I have still never seen hackers on here, game/franchise specific forums or other generalist forums say here is my 010 template/bookmarks or whatever it wants to be called. There is some debate over whether C style format writeups or more human readable tables (which in turn are far more annoying to implement in plugins) are the best approach, and a few things have lept straight into being plugins for other programs. Maybe it is more of a PC format thing as I don't visit those circles so often but everything else I visit at best has 010 as a nice hex editor if you want one.
HxD is basic which is why I included the others that do collectively match or even exceed what Hex Workshop and 010 gave to the world (winhex being more of a computer forensic tool that makes it slightly less useful for ROM hacking). That said while I enjoy byte flips, shifts, masks and such along with relocating comparative search features they are all quite minor perks; get me something that does multiple files, files in the gigabytes, infinite copy-paste, infinite undo, goto, find, insert and ability to change width from 2 bytes to as wide as my screens will go, all of which are reasonably represented in most of the modern open source hex editors (never mind my list of good ones) and I will have most things I want, maybe missing flip when I can't be bothered to do big<->little endian in my head.

RAM might not be part of game files but it is integral to hacking things -- cheats, savestate hacking, basis for tracing sessions/mechanic analysis. There is a reason RAM maps are included in https://datacrystal.romhacking.net/ and thus I would strongly consider including a provision for such a thing in your universal hacking data library tool.

dawnbomb

#4
just become some people are willing to go through very aggravating experiences to make things work, doesn't mean they *want* to go through those experiences, they just want the end even more. The point of the program is to remove all the awful aggrevating parts of creating an editor.

as for chat apps, a rather important part of what makes discord so successful, is how very much you don't have to host your own server. The entire thing you you hate about it, is the exact thing everyone WANTS. Much like how my tool will simplify creation, discord massively simplifies it as well. Without it, everyone would be complaining about IT stuff all the time. It would be far more aggrivating.

as for you calling what the tool would do "minor", it's not at all minor. there literally isn't a thing out that specializes in this. Yes, it's "simple", but the truth like it or not, is developers need to stop having to literally run their projects out of google spreadsheets creating jerry rigged setups to make it copy back, or be told to quit if you can't code your own programs. It's a pointless gatekeep for something that can quite easily be simplified.

Multiple files? this tool would handle infinite files. 
files in gigabytes? what the actual fuck video games are you editing that have files with gigabytes of data in 1 file. most files are in kilabytes.

and then you just go on to describe a hex editor. all your describing, things like go to, infinite copy paste, find, etc, are all things you have to do because hex editors aren't setup for being normal editors. a normal editor would simply never need any of those functions. No, it isn't merely that it doesn't need that, it's that they are directly responcible for making the experience objectively worse. When i type my username to log into this website, i don't need a goto function, or find, it's literally one input i am typing. usernames aren't 20000+ characters long, neither is a single stat of an enemy, or a attribute of a skill. When you play a video game, you don't need a fucking search bar for spells in earthbound or kingdom hearts or fire emblem, it's already on your screen you just press a button.  These things all being in modern hex editors, is exactly why their so toxic for actually modding games. It's all stuff that clogs the experience with so much unnecessary bullshit you literally can't do your job. it's like asking what 1 + 1 is and a thesaurus opens going over in excruciatingly painful detail the entire fundamentals of mathematics without answering your question.

If possible, it would be best if not a single hex was needed to be shown at any point in the entire editor, except for potentially data investigator for debug purposes of edge cases. Your like the kind of person who looks at super mario maker and complains children don't need to be literally coding to create levels. These "features" are fine for overkill professional ultimate control tools, and actively harm anyone trying to edit something in a simple way.

if i posed a contest, of a completely normal and reasonable situation, where we take 200 people off the street at random. One set of 100 with hex workshop and the other with my proposed editor and we give them a goal as random, infact we can make a set of goals and people draw from a basket to pick their goal with absolutely no assistance allowed whatsoever (other then i suppose a template existing already for 010, or a pretend hex workshop equivalent) and a side wins by being able to complete the goal, and the other side giving up and surrendering, my tool would win in every single situation except maybe when the random person pulled for hex editing happens to both be heavily tech savvy and explicitly has hex editor experience. It would be a landslide victory. The end user experience would simply crush any hex editor you can name, even if i let you use like 5 at once.

Edit: to show how serious i am about the overkill features of hex editors causing file edit to be so unacceptable for normal editing, i would be entirely willing to bet money on this.

FAST6191

If detailing the locations within a file is the aggravating bit then you are not particularly cut out for when it gets difficult -- recalculating mathematically modified pointers and doing some kind of bounds checking then being way way way more annoying, and also quite commonly needed.
If you think you can crack that or render it some kind of human language/visual coding/whatever level then by all means. Would be delighted to see it and the people it brings.

Servers can be provided, just that the option to host your own also wants to be a thing; IRC meets definition of open protocol and own server possible, however most will probably be on the big however many it is these days servers.

Did I call the tool minor? I said some features I enjoy in a hex editor are relatively minor. Did not see the functionality in your spec and going by the rest of the post then it would not be.

ISOs regularly end up in the gigabytes and that can trouble basic load it into RAM editors (to say nothing of doing that on an already loaded system) or those that might top out at 4 gigs because reasons. Dual layer DVD, aka standard for the xbox 360, being that and said isos are the reference standard for a lot of things. Within isos then many a video and audio format can end up in the gigabytes as well.

All that said for all the same reasons, only times multiple, that table files https://transcorp.romhacking.net/scratchpad/Table%20File%20Format.txt and tools like atlas and cartographer end up programming languages unto themselves, I don't know where the simple editors come into this without serious background work on the part of the would be hacker. To keep it in the UI discussion it is almost a variation on the "everybody only uses 10% of Microsoft word, it is all a different 10% though".

On not needing a search bar for spells. Yes, that is a limitation of UI that in turn limits gameplay options. Kind of sad really with a few glimpses here and there, never mind what is found in tabletop games and fiction books.

dawnbomb

"If detailing the locations within a file is the aggravating bit then you are not particularly cut out for when it gets difficult "

I reject that entirely, offensively even. It's time is stop being polite. The further examples are all beyond most reasonable needs for most end users. The idea that if a user of a tool can't do the most outrageously unnecessary irrelevant stuff completely unrelated to what they want to do, and parse through tons of unrelated bullshit just to be able to do the most simple of tasks that they are not "cut out for it" is just fucking stupid. It's gatekeeping trash.

"Did I call the tool minor?" Yes, you did, and now in different language you go on to say anyone who can't do the most intense tasks should basically not be allowed to even do simple ones. "Did not see the functionality in your spec and going by the rest of the post then it would not be." You are blind / trolling. What this tool will do, is, although i have no idea HOW, somehow completely unique. There doesn't exist any other tool where a user can take a few minutes and instantly spit out a simple editor for any game. 

"ISOs regularly end up in the gigabytes". I can only assume your trolling me as i doubt someone with 3.5K posts would be this stupid. Your supposed to extract the files from the iso. You don't edit the iso itself. When people talk about nintendo DS romhacking, they don't mean they are literally editing the .nds file, and when people made 3ds mods, they are actually modifying files inside romFS. Same with ISO's. an ISO being multiple GB is completely irrelevant, the files inside it you touch are at KB size. Anyone claiming they are literally editing the .iso file is just a complete noob.

"I don't know where the simple editors come into this without serious background work on the part of the would be hacker" end users aren't hackers, you don't have to be a L33T user to log into facebook anymore then you do to type a date somewhere. Stop trying to overcomplicate very simple things.

"On not needing a search bar for spells. Yes, that is a limitation of UI" no you moron, it is not a "limitation", it is an extremely intentional design decision. why would you need a search bar for a menu with only 4 fucking options. It would take more button inputs to type what your searching for then it would be to just push the button the ability is assigned to. When i'm playing league of legends, i'm not "limited" by there not being a search bar for my characters abilities. But i guess your just trolling me so all of this is pointless anyway. Your just going to keep strawmanning everything i have to say, so i don't think i'll be replying to you anymore.

If anyone is actually interested in helping build a multi-game editor with me, hit me up on discord. Dawnbomb#3408

FAST6191

If a neophyte hacker, or experienced with a few minutes to spare, wants to detail locations within a file then great and might help someone in the future and might even be some in place stuff that can be done (there is a reason for the ROM maps in the datacrystal wiki). There is a very large leap from that to useful editor for possibly 80% plus of what people want to do though*, principally from having to alter pointers and if they are not otherwise versed in the matter then bounds checking/sanity checking/illegal character (which might well be altered by other hacks and thus unpredictable from the outset).
Said neophyte does enough of it and all of a sudden one or two small changes start to occur as options, and then some fiddling with pointers, and then we end up with another person that can hack. Some can take it all from the top, or come with existing skills (while a degree in computing won't necessarily enable you to play hacker it can be twisted to it far more easily than most other backgrounds) but that route is by far and away the most common.
This is also ignoring that determining the contents of a file can be something of a more advanced trick as well, even if I leave out the very useful pointer inference methods, though brute force with a tile editor, relative search, but of light corruption and maybe reverse cheat search can yield enough that the neophyte could get something done and thus have something to document.

*no pointers means no text editor worth speaking of (even without compression being in play), likely no level editor (though your given game might be a "pixel" level approach where every tile is defined as opposed to items being given grid coordinates you might want to add more items to), stats may be possible for simpler games (hope nothing is compressed or generated), not much in the way of assembly editing, graphics limited severely without remapping options (though to be fair outside of font work most are told to stick with the existing map where possible), audio limited to the point of near uselessness (sometimes you get base volume commands). At this point the tool would indeed be a minor tool, though I could see a slot for a file documentation tool, and scarcely able to crack something that might be called an editor never mind universal.

Full ISO level editing is very much a thing people do -- why mess around with unpacking and repacking, never mind its potential troubles for stacking hacks, if what you need to do to effect the desired change can be accomplished that way. If that is not enough though then some of the archive files (which could be considered custom to that game) we see these days are easily in the gigabytes range and even looking 5 minutes into the future then modern textures are going to be routinely in that. You can even drop back to the PS1 era (though PS2 has more) if you wanted and find examples of things stashed outside the iso9660 format -- Square (Enix) being quite famous in these circles, or indeed audio ripping circles, for it. If the DS is apparently an example (despite it now being an old system) then I have had sub archives in the hundreds of megs before (one of the Star Wars games, one of the Touch Detective titles got reasonably high, one of the early Tony Hawk games, a lua based kids game that was not puzzle quest and several others that escape memory at this point, and all were very custom formats, albeit primitive, that I did not encounter in other games/were seemingly made for that game).
I should also note unpacking things is a non trivial concept if you are intending to have it be for Johnny just walked in off the street -- even ignoring the raw LBA addressing stuff from the PS1 and PS2 then plenty of more modern devices (though still nearer 20 years old than not in some cases) have nice encrypted isos that might see the end user have to chase down the relevant keys (thankfully most these days have said keys rather than having to generate them in hardware as was the case for the PSP for quite a while) as fear of lawyers (whether justified or not) means the keys are not always with the (probably Windows only) programs.

As far as spells I think you made my point for me in more detail than I put into the reply. It is limitations of screens, controllers and UI that means most skip the options for custom potions, spells and all that falls from it in games where such things are readily conceived of and computers capable of handling, and tabletop have done for decades. It even varies by device; PCs (large screens, keyboard and mouse as opposed to TVs using controllers and a tendency towards less downtime during a game) tending to see far more here than things made for consoles or knowing that whey would be on consoles. One day maybe a search bar (or something akin to it) could be useful in a game's magic/potion/cooking/building system... but that is a different topic.

Bunkai

Oversimplifying ROMhacking to a tool that "can edit any game" it's as ambitious as saying on doctor should be able to point you with a pen wired to a box to cure you. Like many futuristic movies.

It would be so awesome yet very far from real. Eventually in that box the investigation work should be done and each human is completely different in many aspects.

Don't get me wrong a nice and simple gui do wonders but someone will have to "decomp" the game for that to work, and that's the really hard part to find here. Is not that people here create a gatekeeper is that the close sourced games needs to be cracked open for the people to work on them.

And the search bar is as useful as the copy paste, no-one wants to be scrolling up and down to see where's the box/item they want to edit.

Hope it serves.
Curiosity leads to knowledge,
be curious.

MysticLord

We have Nightmare 1, Nightmare 2, and spreadsheets + python scripts we can use to make game editors, but they require some esoteric knowledge and drive to figure out. I don't see an issue with something a non-programmer can plug some data into and get a mini-editor, though obviously it will be limited in the types of data it can edit.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with more editors, provided they aren't buggy.

And if OP wants to jump through the hoops needed to deal with variable length data, pointers, null terminators, and all that jazz then more power to 'em. It's more common than you think, but again being able to edit some data is better than being able to edit no data.

dawnbomb

Quote from: Bunkai on August 20, 2022, 10:40:48 PMOversimplifying ROMhacking to a tool that "can edit any game" it's as ambitious as saying on doctor should be able to point you with a pen wired to a box to cure you. Like many futuristic movies.

Welcome to the future.

Quote from: MysticLord on August 20, 2022, 11:55:27 PMWe have Nightmare 1, Nightmare 2, and spreadsheets + python scripts we can use to make game editors, but they require some esoteric knowledge and drive to figure out.

Exactly. Except, it's not "some", its like, a metric fuckload. I actually downloaded both nightmare and nightmare 2 in my massive cross reference for every tool i could find, as well as seeing if anything just did this already, and oh my god are they ungodly complicated. you basically need like 10+ hours of reading documentation and experimenting with nightmare 1/2 just to even begin the most basic of fundamentals, on top of already knowing ahead of time a good deal of what your doing. Plus, all that sits after realizing these tools are not just for fire emblem.

It also has a huge number of "why the fuck" problems. one such obvious problem, is it doesn't allow odd number bytes to be more then 1 byte in length. All i can imagine is that it was put together in the most jerry rigged way possible. I think its literally faster for someone to start learning basic C# and make their own editors in visual studio like i did, then it is to actually interact with those programs. They are unironically that bad, theres a reason it's 99% fire emblem. No one else wants to touch it even as a last resort, they would rather do things the "hard" way then go through the hair pulling feeling of interacting with it for even 5 more minutes.

FAST6191

Unless said future is some kind of mega AI or some kind of crowd sourced effort (and this is not basic pattern recognition you can feed to a select items containing bridges/boats/traffic lights/our OCR failed so type this to download your illegal files) to document enough games to functionally act as that (might be possible with some of the MAME/MESS stuff as their game lists are small and corresponding emulator source code is, mainly because it could afford to, be rather game specific).

To take it back to text.

We normally start out with if you ever did A=1, B=2, C=3... as a kid then that is much like (text encoding) tables in games. It works well for many things but then you suddenly get a variable (it costs ???? to stay here for a night where the script will be some random value either hex or escaped text*). Maybe then we note Japanese has thousands of characters (generally of no specified order so those lovely relative search tools at best get a lot harder to use) so instead of 8 bits for character we often see it bumped to 16, oh and 24 bits also exists out in the wild for various purposes, 7 bits kind of exists as well if you want to go back to some of the more exotic computers of years past. Oh and games can have multiple decodings so universal tool might want to shift between them, or decode the in game switch (more common on NES games and such where a game might swap between ?kuten in Japanese stuff as it needs to on the fly, and while multi5 languages plus Japanese is relatively manageable if you want to bump it to the DS you have those, most other rich country European languages, Russian, Korean and Chinese to include even without the hacked side of things that includes a great many more languages, all of which will have their quirks too).
We have not even covered pointers and if you aspire to make things easy for the everyman then why you would not provide them a "this is the location within the file" (though might as easily be a RAM address, never mind one that might be hidden behind some banks that the game will already be handling at runtime and thus does not need to tell you what goes) for a relative pointer** I do not know, and as said pointers might use the upper bits to indicate something (32 bits is 4 gigs or so of direct addressing, while it is within range of some things then other times it would be ridiculous so seeing this the devs of various things might grab those otherwise spare bits to do things like indicate compression, what character is talking, formatting of the text*** you might want a mask too.

This is barely scratching the surface of text (I refer back to the table file earlier) which means you either limit it to those things that are basic file/ROM level pointers and simple text only uncompressed text, a lot of games and maybe just even a majority if you go by volume (though volume means most of those sexy RPGs that all the kids want to translate/edit/expand are not included, include games people want to hack by some sane ranking and that number drops off a cliff), or you start implementing options for something to be escaped, calculated, masked, shifted (not every game is nice enough to start 16 bit decodes on the 16 bit multiple), flipped (rare in text but have seen it when someone gets creative for endianness in text, common as dirt when dealing with pointers). Congratulations you have your quasi programming language with high barrier to entry that you started your project to avoid. At best (likely not the case -- big programming languages with that as their sole raison d'ĂȘtre fail all the time at this) at this point you can avoid some of the pitfalls of the earlier tools by building for the generic case and not have to add on functionality to something not originally specced to handle it when a new game in the franchise it was originally based on appears with such code, though this also risks over complication (many, possibly most, of the failures to appreciate future options are in fact simplifications to work with a given game/system**** if viewed another way).
Wind in music, graphics (2d and 3d being kind of separate beasts), levels (2d and 3d being somewhat distinct concepts though less so than graphics), stats (three main types, endless options for fun and games even before calculated stats)...


*you will probably want an escape in this as well lest you be unable to define = as you use that to indicate the end of the hex decoding.

**not necessarily a trivial act you can do at speed even if you can do hex maths in your head as you might normal maths, if your aspiration might be that they never see a single solitary hex digit then

***you will want to include that too.

****when investigating Atlas and Cartographer for use and teaching others I did have to note that while they can just about be twisted to working with more modern consoles that do memory in different ways, or operate almost exclusively at file level (sometimes even separate files -- that large archive Star Wars game for the DS I mentioned earlier I do remember had its pointers in a separate file and that was not uncommon either), the tools, the language and the documentation are more clearly built around the memory models popular in the 8 and 16 bit era where pointers/memory addresses could not waste anything where the jump to 32 bits (the PS3 and 360 both having less than 1 gigabyte of RAM, combined, thus still had gigs to waste of address space if necessary even if they still stuck with 32 bit addressing, bump to 64 and... yeah).


You throw around words like gatekeeping, which I see as patently absurd, for outside of some cheat making drama (most of which tends to involve cheats for online games) nobody around here does that. You are typically expected to pull yourself up by your boot straps but hand holding has repeatedly been shown to be a waste of time -- courtesy of game devs being able to do what they like, and often doing so (the idea of an application specific text table is not a common thing outside games, even back when the games we might be concerned with were originally released, so you will probably only find people readily thinking in such terms***** if they were doing introductions to cryptography and learning Caesar cyphers) then it just does not work. There are some interesting debates https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vj96QetfTg and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09QidrM7hlc being two things discussing somewhat opposite findings, and might as well throw the usual attackers vs defenders problem in there https://flylib.com/books/en/1.287.1.17/1/ , though even if the first one is true (and I have very serious doubts) nobody is dropping 3 years of US private university money to learn this.


***** I did actually once get such a letter substitution test when I applied to a job agency as part of their make sure you are not a drooler aspect. Had been playing ROM hacker for some time by then so was almost as amusing as immigration one time trying to hold two conversations at once with me as though I had not spent the last possibly 15 years at that point on chat protocols where two simultaneous live conversations is a dead room.

MysticLord

#12
Quote from: dawnbomb on August 21, 2022, 08:43:51 AMExactly. Except, it's not "some", its like, a metric fuckload. I actually downloaded both nightmare and nightmare 2 in my massive cross reference for every tool i could find, as well as seeing if anything just did this already, and oh my god are they ungodly complicated. you basically need like 10+ hours of reading documentation and experimenting with nightmare 1/2 just to even begin the most basic of fundamentals, on top of already knowing ahead of time a good deal of what your doing. Plus, all that sits after realizing these tools are not just for fire emblem.

It also has a huge number of "why the fuck" problems. one such obvious problem, is it doesn't allow odd number bytes to be more then 1 byte in length. All i can imagine is that it was put together in the most jerry rigged way possible. I think its literally faster for someone to start learning basic C# and make their own editors in visual studio like i did, then it is to actually interact with those programs. They are unironically that bad, theres a reason it's 99% fire emblem. No one else wants to touch it even as a last resort, they would rather do things the "hard" way then go through the hair pulling feeling of interacting with it for even 5 more minutes.
The point of a crappy editor such as Nightmare 1 & 2 is (assuming it can load data from a rom):
1. Preserving your changes somewhere, which lets you work on it over time.
2. Avoiding mistakes, which occur constantly when hex editing.
3. You can preview the results of your choices, reducing the mental complexity of the task and makes it easier to spot mistakes.

You assume the baseline is normies learning to code, when in reality the baseline is normies never making a hack at all or making a buggy piece of junk because they had to hex edit everything manually resulting in mistakes. Everyone is not as smart, motivated, or hyperfocused as you, and most can't or won't learn coding.

https://www.romhacking.net/utilities/1618/
^Give this a shot, I'm sure you'll have some nasty things to say about it but hey it works and it's a hell of a lot better than hex editing.

And this is the laziest way to make a spreadsheet editor too, built around my preferences since I prefer to arrow around to enter changes rather than click on drop-down boxes, sometimes I do math on large 2D hex arrays to generate base stats or whatnot, and I'm very comfortable mentally plotting out bits, bytes, and whatnot. I also don't like hiding information from the player hacker, as doing that results in an excess of questions requesting I do the impossible.

If you want to see more normie friendly spreadsheets, check out the ones here:
https://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=9210.0

And I get that you're frustrated and enthusiastic, but all you're doing is burning bridges and ensuring that no one will ever answer your questions in the future. Goodwill is a privilege, not a right.

dawnbomb

#13
Still not replying to fast, just more strawmanning.

@Mysticlord the "normies never making a hack at all" is dismissed in the premise of someone actually making something. But yes, obviously people would just normally quit, but thats because the tools are extremely esoteric, not because they can't be simplified.

The actual baseline (on the premise of someone IS going to do something) is learning basic programming in google sheets. When i went around and interviewed a bunch of groups and projects, that was the #1 answer due to a lack of premade editors and editor making tools, so they have to make their own. You might not like that learning programming is the base for most, but it is. Hell I don't like it, thats why i'm doing something about it.

I included a line about the ogre battle "editor" in my wireframe, but i suppose that one i didn't run because (as with most end users) installing specific version custom language shit is a nightmare setup by people out of touch with end users. After finally touching it now, it also requires a free program that is not included with the download. Nothing like making end users run around the internet for a chance to even test your product, "fun". So yes i do have some bad things to say about it, almost every other premade editor is better then it. I'd like everyone to take a moment and realize, that is an extremely fucking bad thing. There are SO many studies on this, that even one extra click cuts off a huge amount of users. This? It's a LOT of extra clicks, probably 20+ to get everything downloaded and installed, and thats *honestly* being generous.

That said, premade editors in general are usually fine, the problem is that there isn't a large number of editors available, only the most popular titles have a chance at getting one. There is also plenty of current popular titles without one.

Looking back at your comments, you said "And this is the laziest way to make a spreadsheet editor too". Absolutely not. Negatively so, there are lazier, better ways. If you honestly think learning actual straight up python coding is the "laziest way", i could take any number of people off the street to tell you they can imagine ways better then learning to code from a multiyear course. You can literally just grab the file, copy and paste the entire thing into a google sheet, set sheet 2 to copy cells from sheet 1, then label things in sheet 1 and setup dropdowns and such. No python, no downloading extra programs, no literally learning to code python to create an editor that interacts with a spreadsheet. I mean look at this conversation right now, you didn't have to set a character encoding just to access this romhacking forum. It was automated, and so to can editor interactions be.

Quote from: MysticLord on August 21, 2022, 11:27:59 PMAnd I get that you're frustrated and enthusiastic, but all you're doing is burning bridges and ensuring that no one will ever answer your questions in the future. Goodwill is a privilege, not a right.

I doubt that. i think anyone reading through will very clearly be able to tell my goal is to simplify creating editors, and their usage. As for burning the bridge with anyone who doesn't understand, or rather doesn't *want* to understand, those people would just use that as the excuse. They would come up with some other reason sooner or later. It's pretty easy not to engauge in identity politics for anyone who actually cares about one super good ass editor + creator tool.

Quote from: MysticLord on August 21, 2022, 11:27:59 PMIf you want to see more normie friendly spreadsheets, check out the ones here:
https://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=9210.0

Thats not normie friendly at all. The spreadsheets literally do not mod the game files, it's esoteric as fuck. It's not even particularly good as reference documents, the user would need knowledge from understanding ingame files extremely in depth before referencing those spreadsheets. Now to be fair, it's on a forum with tools that already do better, so making spreadsheets probably wants to be esoteric in this instance. None the less my point stands. You want something normie friendly? try the golden sun editor where you can just rename an ability by clicking on it and typing a name, or assign an ability to a class by clicking the class and ability. There are ways to do this for spreadsheets as well. The etrian odyssey spreadsheets are also pretty good, minus the part where they don't provide raw hex data, but are an okay reference for creating your own by clearly labeling each column.

Cyneprepou4uk

QuoteI'm creating a tool i'm calling Crystal Editor 3. It will be a tool many have probably been waiting for a very long time, a simplified game editor creation tool, made to act as a base for all sorts of other editors.

This is cool. Keep up the good work  :thumbsup:

MysticLord

Quote from: dawnbomb on August 23, 2022, 05:50:08 AMStill not replying to fast, just more strawmanning.

@Mysticlord the "normies never making a hack at all" is dismissed in the premise of someone actually making something. But yes, obviously people would just normally quit, but thats because the tools are extremely esoteric, not because they can't be simplified.

The actual baseline (on the premise of someone IS going to do something) is learning basic programming in google sheets. When i went around and interviewed a bunch of groups and projects, that was the #1 answer due to a lack of premade editors and editor making tools, so they have to make their own. You might not like that learning programming is the base for most, but it is. Hell I don't like it, thats why i'm doing something about it.

I included a line about the ogre battle "editor" in my wireframe, but i suppose that one i didn't run because (as with most end users) installing specific version custom language shit is a nightmare setup by people out of touch with end users. After finally touching it now, it also requires a free program that is not included with the download. Nothing like making end users run around the internet for a chance to even test your product, "fun". So yes i do have some bad things to say about it, almost every other premade editor is better then it. I'd like everyone to take a moment and realize, that is an extremely fucking bad thing. There are SO many studies on this, that even one extra click cuts off a huge amount of users. This? It's a LOT of extra clicks, probably 20+ to get everything downloaded and installed, and thats *honestly* being generous.

That said, premade editors in general are usually fine, the problem is that there isn't a large number of editors available, only the most popular titles have a chance at getting one. There is also plenty of current popular titles without one.

Looking back at your comments, you said "And this is the laziest way to make a spreadsheet editor too". Absolutely not. Negatively so, there are lazier, better ways. If you honestly think learning actual straight up python coding is the "laziest way", i could take any number of people off the street to tell you they can imagine ways better then learning to code from a multiyear course. You can literally just grab the file, copy and paste the entire thing into a google sheet, set sheet 2 to copy cells from sheet 1, then label things in sheet 1 and setup dropdowns and such. No python, no downloading extra programs, no literally learning to code python to create an editor that interacts with a spreadsheet. I mean look at this conversation right now, you didn't have to set a character encoding just to access this romhacking forum. It was automated, and so to can editor interactions be.
If someone can't install Python when given written instructions to do so - and when Google (despite being dilapidated) returns simple instructions to do so, and when I personally put links to forums and chat channels to ask questions of me - then they will never produce anything. If your target audience is people who don't have the agency to start a web browser, navigate to a web site, and ask me a question, then what sort of hacks would such people produce?

Every editor I've ever heard of requires you to download something, even FFTPatcher requires Dot Net installs.

Besides that, my editors don't require you to "learn python coding", they require you to learn how to use the command prompt, and they provide a FAQ on the basics of using the command prompt.

A spreadsheet by itself can't write specific data to specific addresses in a file it doesn't support writing to. This requires either macros within the spreadsheet (which may not be cross platform, and may not work at all on low end computers) or an external program to write whatever the spreadsheet outputs to the file.

Python works on pretty much everything. My use of it takes less than a 1/3 of a second on the largest data my spreadsheets support, using a desktop from 2002.

Quote from: dawnbomb on August 23, 2022, 05:50:08 AMI doubt that. i think anyone reading through will very clearly be able to tell my goal is to simplify creating editors, and their usage. As for burning the bridge with anyone who doesn't understand, or rather doesn't *want* to understand, those people would just use that as the excuse. They would come up with some other reason sooner or later. It's pretty easy not to engauge in identity politics for anyone who actually cares about one super good ass editor + creator tool.
Well you're certainly burning your bridge with me. Your time is better spent coding rather than voiding your bowels on forum threads, and my mood is not improved by the lack of effort you put into punctuation, capitalization, or brevity.

Quote from: dawnbomb on August 23, 2022, 05:50:08 AMThats not normie friendly at all. The spreadsheets literally do not mod the game files, it's esoteric as fuck. It's not even particularly good as reference documents, the user would need knowledge from understanding ingame files extremely in depth before referencing those spreadsheets. Now to be fair, it's on a forum with tools that already do better, so making spreadsheets probably wants to be esoteric in this instance. None the less my point stands. You want something normie friendly? try the golden sun editor where you can just rename an ability by clicking on it and typing a name, or assign an ability to a class by clicking the class and ability. There are ways to do this for spreadsheets as well. The etrian odyssey spreadsheets are also pretty good, minus the part where they don't provide raw hex data, but are an okay reference for creating your own by clearly labeling each column.

I've used most of those spreadsheets, and though they require Excel for macros to work (until the Libre Office team adds macros), most patch a disc image directly. Can't get much easier than that. And the ones that don't patch a few game files, which anyone can import into a disc image with CD Mage (a GUI program).

Adding text renaming to a spreadsheet editor is doable, but that hides the complexity from the end user and results in them making tons of mistakes they wouldn't do if they could see the limitations. Besides that, putting text editing within the area of an editor that also edits something else is an implicit, hidden design feature that requires explanation, which means the coder must write a guide on how to do that.

Granted, with a spreadsheet you could make a sheet called "Text" and edit that and have it calculate the pointers and leftover bytes in the free space available (all of which would be visible to the user), and then concatenate the text for the descriptions elsewhere in the editor. But that much complexity in a single editor is resource intensive, which stops people who have crappy computers from using it. Some of these users are in third world countries, don't have the resources to buy a better computer, and could really use an reprieve from their circumstances which an editor designed around low power machines provides.

As for spreadsheets not being good reference documents, most of the best references I've ever seen are spreadsheets or plain text files. Their superiority lies in ease of editing. Anyone can update notes, descriptions, references. So long as you follow certain formatting conventions to keep everything pretty (as pretty as a spreadsheet can be) it's the fastest way to learn.

My perspective is that one should make it as easy, straight-forward, and transparent to learn. I want to train people how to think around problems and how to improvise solutions so they can go on to bigger and better things.

Your perspective is that no learning should be required at all, and that the coder should do all the work so people can touch a computer while playing anime music and running the Matrix green kanji screensaver on a spare monitor and the hacking just magically happens. I'm curious how you intend to pass on the skills we learned to new generations of romhackers after you've de-skilled everything, and what people will do when there isn't a coder around to do all the work for them.

dawnbomb

I'm reordering my replys here for dramatic effect, to better showcase the spiral into madness that this dude is having.

Quote from: MysticLord on August 23, 2022, 08:54:20 AMEvery editor I've ever heard of requires you to download something, even FFTPatcher requires Dot Net installs.

Some editors do, and it really sucks when they do this. However there are an okay amount of editors that do not require extra downloads. Other then obviously the game file it's editing. A small exception is made for snes era stuff where some roms have headers and others do not, but some editors are nice enough to detect and offer to automatically fix it without telling to to play wheres waldo on the internet to find the correct program.

Quote from: MysticLord on August 23, 2022, 08:54:20 AMBesides that, my editors don't require you to "learn python coding", they require you to learn how to use the command prompt, and they provide a FAQ on the basics of using the command prompt.

The part where you say that completely serious is so painful to basically every end users soul. First, command prompt is nearly just as evil as asking someone to code. end users don't want to use command prompt. Noone wants to run an editor through command prompts. noone even wants to touch command prompt except as an absolute last resort. there is a reason we have programs for things now adays instead of having to use command prompt for everything. Next, i didn't know you made any editors, but end users neither want to install python, nor use command prompt. Even a simple ugly gui, although not great, is massively better then either of those options.

Quote from: MysticLord on August 23, 2022, 08:54:20 AMA spreadsheet by itself can't write specific data to specific addresses in a file it doesn't support writing to. This requires either macros within the spreadsheet (which may not be cross platform, and may not work at all on low end computers) or an external program to write whatever the spreadsheet outputs to the file.

Python works on pretty much everything. My use of it takes less than a 1/3 of a second on the largest data my spreadsheets support, using a desktop from 2002.

and here you are trying to fight with what actual people actually do for their projects. the basic "your wrong! your not doing this! you should learn python!" mentality. Ugh. reality is SO SORRY it's different from what you want it to be, but most people do not infact use python at all for their projects. They use google sheets (or sometimes 010 templates) because it's easy to setup and copy paste things around. More advanced users (not so many of these) tend to create their own program.

Stop trying to advertise python like your a python employee. Normal people don't want to install extra shit on their computer, they want their program to work when clicked on. it's not a hard concept. WTF is your problem with people who don't want to use python?

Quote from: MysticLord on August 23, 2022, 08:54:20 AMIf someone can't install Python when given written instructions to do so - and when Google (despite being dilapidated) returns simple instructions to do so, and when I personally put links to forums and chat channels to ask questions of me - then they will never produce anything. If your target audience is people who don't have the agency to start a web browser, navigate to a web site, and ask me a question, then what sort of hacks would such people produce?

Oh, *theres* your problem with people not using python. The type of mentality / people (you) i'm fully willing to burn bridges to cinders and leave ash in my wake against. When faced with someone who doesn't want to do this, the only answer you can literally imagine is an end user who is so retarted that they have a complete lack of mental agency like a vegetable. It's either the end user can use python, or they have a mental disability preventing them from asking questions. I have no idea how people like you get so dug into such outrageous false dichotomys as to unironically think people "will never produce anything otherwise", but there are plenty, nay, i would say eclipsing vast majority of people, would prefer things to be simple, and just don't want to do the unnecessary mental gymnastics some out of touch developer demands from them to do something that is very basic. 


Quote from: MysticLord on August 23, 2022, 08:54:20 AMWell you're certainly burning your bridge with me. Your time is better spent coding rather than voiding your bowels on forum threads, and my mood is not improved by the lack of effort you put into punctuation, capitalization, or brevity.

well after you said people who don't want to ask questions have no agency as human beings, i could really care less about your feelings. Actually, i think i'm done replying to anything you have to say anymore. That mentality is just so toxic. Anything constructive from it isn't worth the effort your going to make me put in to dig it out hidden between so much hate.


to anyone whos actually interested in a good simple powerful editor and editor maker, hit me up. Work is progressing steadily, but can have help.



MysticLord

#17
Quote from: dawnbomb on August 23, 2022, 10:10:02 AMI'm reordering my replys here for dramatic effect, to better showcase the spiral into madness that this dude is having.
Bait, and hyperbole.

Quote from: dawnbomb on August 23, 2022, 10:10:02 AMSome editors do, and it really sucks when they do this. However there are an okay amount of editors that do not require extra downloads. Other then obviously the game file it's editing. A small exception is made for snes era stuff where some roms have headers and others do not, but some editors are nice enough to detect and offer to automatically fix it without telling to to play wheres waldo on the internet to find the correct program.
SNES headers are a mess, true, but we can hash them and compare the results. Windows has a tab for it in Right Click On File -> Properties.

It would be easier if everyone could agree to do away with them and to open source their tools so header handling could be automated until they're extinct, but someone tried that crusade in 2008 or thereabouts and it made people double down on headers. Why? Because cats resist herding.

Quote from: dawnbomb on August 23, 2022, 10:10:02 AMThe part where you say that completely serious is so painful to basically every end users soul. First, command prompt is nearly just as evil as asking someone to code. end users don't want to use command prompt. Noone wants to run an editor through command prompts. noone even wants to touch command prompt except as an absolute last resort. there is a reason we have programs for things now adays instead of having to use command prompt for everything. Next, i didn't know you made any editors, but end users neither want to install python, nor use command prompt. Even a simple ugly gui, although not great, is massively better then either of those options.
Nobody, huh?

Sarcasm aside, this is hyperbolic and reductionist. The inclusion of wildcards more than makes up for the text based interface of the command line. It is one of the most powerful tools available to non-programmers, and you can get half of the total utility of wildcards from two or three characters.

Besides that, 3/4 of the people on this forum who've contributed a hack, and >99% of the people who've contributed a tool, learned how to use the command line in their salad days of kicking one another off telephone based modems and in some cases Usenet. It is painfully easy to navigate with 2 commands, go up a directory, and autocomplete.

Quote from: dawnbomb on August 23, 2022, 10:10:02 AMand here you are trying to fight with what actual people actually do for their projects. the basic "your wrong! your not doing this! you should learn python!" mentality. Ugh. reality is SO SORRY it's different from what you want it to be, but most people do not infact use python at all for their projects. They use google sheets (or sometimes 010 templates) because it's easy to setup and copy paste things around. More advanced users (not so many of these) tend to create their own program.
Calling a python program that someone else made from the command line isn't "learning python" any more than double clicking on an compiled game editor written in C is "learning C". The method by which you interact with a finished piece of software is determined by how the operating system interacts with that language. I'm unsure how you don't grasp that, given the truly insane goal you have which requires an understanding of advanced programming concepts such as reflection.

And again, you're being hyperbolic.

You're also responding not to things I say, but to things which you imagine I say. I assume based on patterns in your grammar, punctuation, and spelling that you read far enough to find something to throw a fit over, and then reverted to emotional arguments, ad hominems, and frankly non-arguments unrelated to the discussion. These latter things are occurring in your own mind, not in any argument I've made.

The funny part is that I think what you're trying to do is a good and worthwhile task, I'm just nit-picking some false statements you've made. Yet you respond to my hemming and hawing as if I urinated in your Wheaties, indicating either emotional incompetence or social maladroitness on your part.

Quote from: dawnbomb on August 23, 2022, 10:10:02 AMStop trying to advertise python like your a python employee. Normal people don't want to install extra shit on their computer, they want their program to work when clicked on. it's not a hard concept. WTF is your problem with people who don't want to use python?
Let me be clear: Python sucks and I hate it, but it sucks the least of all the languages I'm smart enough to use (which isn't many).

Quote from: dawnbomb on August 23, 2022, 10:10:02 AMOh, *theres* your problem with people not using python. The type of mentality / people (you) i'm fully willing to burn bridges to cinders and leave ash in my wake against. When faced with someone who doesn't want to do this, the only answer you can literally imagine is an end user who is so retarted that they have a complete lack of mental agency like a vegetable. It's either the end user can use python, or they have a mental disability preventing them from asking questions. I have no idea how people like you get so dug into such outrageous false dichotomys as to unironically think people "will never produce anything otherwise", but there are plenty, nay, i would say eclipsing vast majority of people, would prefer things to be simple, and just don't want to do the unnecessary mental gymnastics some out of touch developer demands from them to do something that is very basic.
Again:
1. Telling people to call a python program I made (poorly) from the command line is not coding in python.
2. I am not advocating that anyone learn coding at all, just some simple low-hanging fruit that most of the people on this forum learned before they hit puberty.

Quote from: dawnbomb on August 23, 2022, 10:10:02 AMwell after you said people who don't want to ask questions have no agency as human beings, i could really care less about your feelings. Actually, i think i'm done replying to anything you have to say anymore. That mentality is just so toxic. Anything constructive from it isn't worth the effort your going to make me put in to dig it out hidden between so much hate.
Ludicrously hyperbolic.

If I can't ask people to hit me up on the internet (which you are do in your next paragraph) how then am I supposed to know that people have a problem with something I made, and need my help? This is a genuine question, I want to know your answer.

The following paragraph, however, is sarcasm.

Should I put my phone number and mailing address in the FAQ for all the tools I make? Should I retire to a monastery high in the Himalayas and learn to manipulate my Ki so I can send and receive psychic messages and detect anguish related to rom hacking? Should I apprentice myself to a brotherhood of wandering ascetics so I can learn to transcend time and space, becoming an immortal IT help desk guardian for people that can't figure out that I really like answering questions they have for free, on the internet as a hobby?

Tell me what I should do, Wise One.

On another note, you've clearly demonstrated that you are either too lazy or too emotional to actually read what other people write, and too socially maladapted or emotional to calmly evaluate criticism without having a meltdown.

A computer does not care in the slightest about your emotions. If I have the magical ability to make you publicly humiliate yourself with a few mild nitpicks regarding obviously false statements you made then you will need a lot of luck to make a computer (which cares even less about your emotions than I do) accomplish your goals (which again are good goals worth doing).

Good luck, and I hope someday you find the Akashic Pepto-Bismo to cure your emotional incontinence.

Quote from: dawnbomb on August 23, 2022, 10:10:02 AMto anyone whos actually interested in a good simple powerful editor and editor maker, hit me up. Work is progressing steadily, but can have help.
Can have... help? Cheezeburger?

FAST6191

Quote from: dawnbomb on August 23, 2022, 05:50:08 AMStill not replying to fast, just more strawmanning.

@Mysticlord the "normies never making a hack at all" is dismissed in the premise of someone actually making something. But yes, obviously people would just normally quit, but thats because the tools are extremely esoteric, not because they can't be simplified.

The actual baseline (on the premise of someone IS going to do something) is learning basic programming in google sheets. When i went around and interviewed a bunch of groups and projects, that was the #1 answer due to a lack of premade editors and editor making tools, so they have to make their own. You might not like that learning programming is the base for most, but it is. Hell I don't like it, thats why i'm doing something about it.

I included a line about the ogre battle "editor" in my wireframe, but i suppose that one i didn't run because (as with most end users) installing specific version custom language shit is a nightmare setup by people out of touch with end users. After finally touching it now, it also requires a free program that is not included with the download. Nothing like making end users run around the internet for a chance to even test your product, "fun". So yes i do have some bad things to say about it, almost every other premade editor is better then it. I'd like everyone to take a moment and realize, that is an extremely fucking bad thing. There are SO many studies on this, that even one extra click cuts off a huge amount of users. This? It's a LOT of extra clicks, probably 20+ to get everything downloaded and installed, and thats *honestly* being generous.

That said, premade editors in general are usually fine, the problem is that there isn't a large number of editors available, only the most popular titles have a chance at getting one. There is also plenty of current popular titles without one.

Looking back at your comments, you said "And this is the laziest way to make a spreadsheet editor too". Absolutely not. Negatively so, there are lazier, better ways. If you honestly think learning actual straight up python coding is the "laziest way", i could take any number of people off the street to tell you they can imagine ways better then learning to code from a multiyear course. You can literally just grab the file, copy and paste the entire thing into a google sheet, set sheet 2 to copy cells from sheet 1, then label things in sheet 1 and setup dropdowns and such. No python, no downloading extra programs, no literally learning to code python to create an editor that interacts with a spreadsheet. I mean look at this conversation right now, you didn't have to set a character encoding just to access this romhacking forum. It was automated, and so to can editor interactions be.

I doubt that. i think anyone reading through will very clearly be able to tell my goal is to simplify creating editors, and their usage. As for burning the bridge with anyone who doesn't understand, or rather doesn't *want* to understand, those people would just use that as the excuse. They would come up with some other reason sooner or later. It's pretty easy not to engauge in identity politics for anyone who actually cares about one super good ass editor + creator tool.

Thats not normie friendly at all. The spreadsheets literally do not mod the game files, it's esoteric as fuck. It's not even particularly good as reference documents, the user would need knowledge from understanding ingame files extremely in depth before referencing those spreadsheets. Now to be fair, it's on a forum with tools that already do better, so making spreadsheets probably wants to be esoteric in this instance. None the less my point stands. You want something normie friendly? try the golden sun editor where you can just rename an ability by clicking on it and typing a name, or assign an ability to a class by clicking the class and ability. There are ways to do this for spreadsheets as well. The etrian odyssey spreadsheets are also pretty good, minus the part where they don't provide raw hex data, but are an okay reference for creating your own by clearly labeling each column.
We really seem to have struck a nerve and I am not entirely sure why. It is somewhat amusing to watch though.

Re command line. Forcing it is bad. Options to use it is damn near mandatory if things are to be chained together in a batch file or equivalent. Without it then you will probably lack support from those that can hack and will be the ones to make all the initial findings, understandings and share those onwards.

No premade tools means those that will only use premade tools can't do things. Shocker there.
Trouble is premade tools necessarily represent a lot of time with a lot of skilled work. Unless your editor is going to be limited to in place stats edits, in place level edits and maybe in place graphics edits then there is no particularly easy way to simplify the creation of them, and things will continue to be blown out of the water by those that can do -- eventually the big bad monster of assembly crops up and that requires you learn at least some programming.

1 click might turn off people from your silly make my boyfriend look like a girl app on phones. Even those that purposely restrict themselves to premade editors will still have to have some measure of patience and understanding of game logic to make a worthwhile mod (watching some of the conversations from people making Doom levels and counterstrike maps that people actually want to play reveals some very in depth understanding of a lot of fields).
I will also note 1 click, never mind your supposedly nightmare scenarios, is almost inevitable unless your chosen framework is likely to be ported to all platforms, maintain either a legacy mode or you refactor the code for new versions in a timely manner. If Microsoft with their trillions and army of coders dedicated purely to backwards compatibility can't manage that in Windows (never mind when all the normies as you would put them abandoned Windows for Android and IOS/have that as their primary computing platform for which I imagine having to boot up the PC to edit things is way more what would be termed friction in various sales/UI design/usability circles) then good luck doing that as an open source project aimed at being a general purpose file documentation and editing platform.
I already said my bit on generalisation vs platform specifics and simplification as a result, as well as future implications and considerations (we could probably guess the future today as it is fairly well known, might have to dodge the nobody needs more than 640KB thing as well at some effort to file handling to handle arbitrarily large files)

Golden Sun Editor? I assume that is the one from Atrius and if not I point people at that instead. That guy was really good and understood an awful lot of things to make that, and had to work super hard to make it as abstracted away from code as it is (others playing along it went beyond simple pointer dereferencing, which itself is not always seen as much as assumed to be hardcoded to a given location in the editor itself, and into data fingerprinting, I believe various prebaked assembly additions and much more besides). I talked above about bounds checking and such like where this is several steps beyond that in some cases. I will certainly say it is a masterclass in editor design and implementation (pity the scene for it is so drama happy) but anybody likely to make such a thing in the future is unlikely to gain much from your framework as it stands if it jumped from your plan into reality tomorrow -- such people might benefit from an existing format description or two (assuming they are reliable of course, which is a debate if it is nominally crowdsourced) but they would be more interested in a UI library to avoid having to do all that themselves (which is usually where the python libraries/installs, Java, autoIT, visual basic if going for legacy stuff, .net/mono frameworks come in as they all promise various levels of UI creation ability.

MysticLord

Quote from: FAST6191 on August 23, 2022, 04:06:35 PMWe really seem to have struck a nerve and I am not entirely sure why. It is somewhat amusing to watch though.
It's more sad than funny, but then again I care too much about these things.

Quote from: FAST6191 on August 23, 2022, 04:06:35 PMRe command line. Forcing it is bad. Options to use it is damn near mandatory if things are to be chained together in a batch file or equivalent. Without it then you will probably lack support from those that can hack and will be the ones to make all the initial findings, understandings and share those onwards.
I thought about using a batch file for my spreadsheets, but I use them myself and I prefer to call them directly with parameters. It's probably possible to have both, I assume?

Quote from: FAST6191 on August 23, 2022, 04:06:35 PMNo premade tools means those that will only use premade tools can't do things. Shocker there.
Trouble is premade tools necessarily represent a lot of time with a lot of skilled work. Unless your editor is going to be limited to in place stats edits, in place level edits and maybe in place graphics edits then there is no particularly easy way to simplify the creation of them, and things will continue to be blown out of the water by those that can do -- eventually the big bad monster of assembly crops up and that requires you learn at least some programming.
I have no idea if it's possible to make a tool that, when fed some parameters, poops out a decent game-specific editor for certain data. I'd love it if anyone could make such a tool, because that would make my life much easier. And while the "raised by iPad" generation veers wildly between genius and insufferable know-nothing, I feel bad enough at their technical incompetence that I want them to contribute as best as they can.

Quote from: FAST6191 on August 23, 2022, 04:06:35 PM1 click might turn off people from your silly make my boyfriend look like a girl app on phones. Even those that purposely restrict themselves to premade editors will still have to have some measure of patience and understanding of game logic to make a worthwhile mod (watching some of the conversations from people making Doom levels and counterstrike maps that people actually want to play reveals some very in depth understanding of a lot of fields).
Technical skills aren't the same as event planning, map buildling, spriting, and music editing. I know plenty of people that couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag (not that I'm a paragon of technical expertise) but who do things with events that would take me months of frustration (because I'm a moron).

Quote from: FAST6191 on August 23, 2022, 04:06:35 PMI will also note 1 click, never mind your supposedly nightmare scenarios, is almost inevitable unless your chosen framework is likely to be ported to all platforms, maintain either a legacy mode or you refactor the code for new versions in a timely manner. If Microsoft with their trillions and army of coders dedicated purely to backwards compatibility can't manage that in Windows (never mind when all the normies as you would put them abandoned Windows for Android and IOS/have that as their primary computing platform for which I imagine having to boot up the PC to edit things is way more what would be termed friction in various sales/UI design/usability circles) then good luck doing that as an open source project aimed at being a general purpose file documentation and editing platform.
Hence why such a program would inevitably be written in good ole C.

Quote from: FAST6191 on August 23, 2022, 04:06:35 PMGolden Sun Editor? I assume that is the one from Atrius and if not I point people at that instead. That guy was really good and understood an awful lot of things to make that, and had to work super hard to make it as abstracted away from code as it is (others playing along it went beyond simple pointer dereferencing, which itself is not always seen as much as assumed to be hardcoded to a given location in the editor itself, and into data fingerprinting, I believe various prebaked assembly additions and much more besides). I talked above about bounds checking and such like where this is several steps beyond that in some cases. I will certainly say it is a masterclass in editor design and implementation (pity the scene for it is so drama happy) but anybody likely to make such a thing in the future is unlikely to gain much from your framework as it stands if it jumped from your plan into reality tomorrow -- such people might benefit from an existing format description or two (assuming they are reliable of course, which is a debate if it is nominally crowdsourced) but they would be more interested in a UI library to avoid having to do all that themselves (which is usually where the python libraries/installs, Java, autoIT, visual basic if going for legacy stuff, .net/mono frameworks come in as they all promise various levels of UI creation ability.
What are the necessary components of a game editor? How could one Macguyver a game editor from duck tape and paperclips?

Maybe if parts of the editor creation process were abstracted into discrete single-purpose packages we'd have more of them.