Request for portuguese translations: Split "Portuguese" language in PT-EU/PT-BR

Started by Solid One, August 15, 2022, 11:24:49 AM

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Solid One

Hello everyone. I'm Solid One, a brazilian romhacker that mostly works in portuguese translations. In the last years I've been submitting lots of translations I was involved in the past, for game franchises such as Mega Man, Metroid, Castlevania, The Legend of Zelda, Phoenix Wright, etc.

These days, most of my brazilian colleagues have been submitting their translations to the site, since it's a very trustworthy and robust platform, and also that it makes it very easy to find them from Google. There are a lot of our translations already submitted here, but there's even more of them. If currently we have about 250 translations, that value should reach the count of 500 translations if all our translations were submitted to the site.

However, these days we stumbled upon a case where the same game received two portuguese translations at the same time: one for brazilian portuguese and another for the european one. Both were developed mainly by the same team. On the site, both have the same language "Portuguese", but in fact, there are a lot of differences between those, mostly because of the differences between PT-BR and PT-EU. I wonder if maybe having the ability to separate both languages might be better for searching purposes.

That said, I ask: would it be possible to implement it on rh.net somehow?

Another thing that I did was: to check how many portuguese translations do we currently have on RH.net, and from those, which are brazilian portuguese and which are not:



The spreadsheet above lists all 260 translations, where I sorted all of them by the "Released By" column. From the nicknames, I could figure out the brazilian and the non-brazilian translations for most of them (members such as "ajkmetiuk", "Anime_World, "BMatSantos" and "byftr", for example, are brazilian colleagues of mine). As a result of that spreadsheet, at least 190 of them are brazilian. Here's the spreadsheet if you like.

I have two implementation suggestions for that feature:

1. Creating a new language:
  - Rename "Portuguese" to "Portuguese (BR)";
  - Create a new language "Portuguese (EU)";

That way, all translations will be set to PT-BR by default, and the european ones can be edited later.

2. Adding a new field "Language Variation":
  - In the "Submit Files" form:
    - Add a new field "Language Variation", below the "Language" one;
    - Its options could be: None, American, European, Brazilian;
    - Set its default value to "None".
  - In the "Translations" section:
    - Add a new filter for "Language Variation", with the same options above, and the default option set to "None Selected".
  - For the existing portuguese translations:
    - Set the variation to "Brazilian", since more than 70% of the translations are currently brazilian ones.
 
From that approach, we can maintain the current site behavior and simply add to it. We will still be able to search for all portuguese translations or further filter by each variation. But implementing this might involve a little bit more work.

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Lastly but not least, even though we think it'd be easier to edit only the portuguese european entries in this case, we brazilians can help editing the non-brazilian ones, to set the proper language/variation.

So, what do you guys think?

João13


danuffo

@Solid One  How different is Brazil to Portugal??? Any other person would tell me you speak portuguese not brazilian.

That's complicated, we have the same problem in spanish but x10     

However, I don't see many Latin Americans complaining about Spanish translations from Spain (which are the majority) and that Spanish is a bit different than the one used in Mexico (the country where I come from).

The main difference that Mexico (and some other countries) has with the Spanish of Spain is the use of another additional pronoun called "vosotros", there are more important differences like some verbs considered taboo words, that's the worst part.

Personally, that is one of my motivations to start being a translator because I don't feel satisfied with some spanish translations made by Spain people or other countries.

Like I said, it's complicated because even Latin American countries are different from each other, Argentina (Hispanic country) has more taboo words like "cajeta" (means "vagina") which is not taboo in Mexico (is the name for a candy), and that's why neutral Spanish in international dubs is forced to replace them by artificial words like "emparedado" and "tarta".
Creating adecuate spanish translations for mexicans players.

FAST6191

From what I understand danuffo it is about as different as any language gets and still gets called the same give or take internal regional differences (Spanish within Spain, even without the Catalan discussion, then potentially providing some fun there). Or if going for the "two nations separated by a common language" thing then it is about as stark as it gets outside of writing issues for things like China and Taiwan (still uses traditional Chinese as opposed to simplified) or some of those places that might still use pre 1918 Russian alphabet.

When it comes to ROM hacks then I have generally noted the Brazilian translation scene as being prolific as well -- in addition to the boatload of translations made then making own tools, forking existing projects with new functionality, decoding formats never previously decoded, and once or twice even improving emulators which is beyond anything but the Chinese scene and maybe Russian. European stuff gets the occasional official translation (though usually games for kids and puzzle games for the casual crowd as it were, though don't know what goes since phones took over that market) but whether by necessity, schooling or by culture* then a lot of mainland European types opt for English or a nearby popular language (multi5 you might see in ROM release discussions/names refers to English, French, German, Italian and Spanish which get the bulk of any translations), in this case presumably as they will tell me Spanish is simplified Portuguese then that.

*favourite link at times like this https://www.loekalization.com/urbanmyths.html

Raflos

I think even many of the titles in the spreadsheet labeled as "PT" are still "PT-BR"

However I agree, it would be fantastic if the search function differentiated between Portuguese (BR) and Portuguese (EU). Admins please!

danuffo

Is really that difficult to understand european portuguese? Which are the differences?

I always find brazilians complaning in other outside forums (not related to games) about this same portuguese subject.

Just like the names implies, portuguese is from Portugal, that its only true form.

The same case as spanish, we (mexicans) may use the spanish way more different than people in Spain and Argentina/Uruguay, but I have never seen anyone requesting a separated forum or category.

 
Creating adecuate spanish translations for mexicans players.


rari_teh

As a speaker of English, Spanish and Portuguese, I can attest that the differences between European and American Portuguese are much bigger than those in Spanish and English. To name a few key differences:

  • Many words are spelled differently in a way that directly affects pronunciation (not like color/colour, I mean. These are usually in the form of syllable-final plosive consonants that only exist in one (e.g. pt_BR recepção/pt_PT receção, reception; pt_BR ativo/pt_PT activo, active) or words that use an open vowel mark in Europe but have closed vowels in Brazil (e.g. pt_BR econômico/pt_PT económico, economic))
  • The 2nd person singular pronoun and respective verb forms are still used in Portugal while they're limited to some dialects in Brazil
  • A lot of the vocabulary, including many common words such as car and toilet, is just plain different and range from "you can figure out what it means if you stop for a bit to think" to "you must have previous knowledge of what that word means" (which, chances are, you don't – I don't know about the opposite, but the vast majority of Brazilians just do not consume media in European Portuguese at all, the only relatively recent exception being that up to the late 2000s we'd sometimes use computer programs in European Portuguese because it was more common as a locale than Brazilian Portuguese, and even that was a bit confusing at times)
    • On that note, there are many words that mean completely different things across both variants, with some being completely innocuous in one but sexual or offensive in the other (e.g. bicha (pt_PT: queue [of people], pt_BR: [a slur for effeminate gay men]); durex (pt_PT: condom, pt_BR: sellotape))
  • This point is only relevant for undubs, but the pronunciation is not mutually intelligible enough. Portuguese people being interviewed in Brazilian TV are captioned like any other foreigner speaking in a foreign language. In my admittedly anecdotal experience, it gets to the point that many people find some variants of Latin American Spanish to be easier to understand than European Portuguese speech, even some who can't speak Spanish themselves
  • The informal variants are even more different from each other than the standard variants, and most video game dialogue is translated in varying degrees of informality, especially in RPGs with a modern setting

This is by no means an exhaustive list, but I hope that's enough to get the point across that there's a very significant difference between both variants. There even have been some arguments towards formally dividing them by 'emancipating' Brazilian as an independent Romance language, but I am *not* going to open that can of worms lest I draw the ire of the Letras crowd

Master_Luke

Complementing what the colleague above exposed.
The main annoyance between the portuguese and brazilians is not much the exchange of words, because that exists in all languages, one word being different from the other.
the main annoyance is the way the verb is written, the pronouns, etc... Are totally different.

European Portuguese uses the verb in the infinitive, while Brazilian Portuguese uses the gerund.

  • e.g. "What are you doing?"
  • "O que tu estás a fazer?"(europe)
  • "O que você está fazendo?"(Brazilian)

Another point is personal pronouns, European Portuguese uses "tu" in the second person singular, while Brazilian Portuguese uses "você". (you)
"Você" it would be formal for a European Portuguese, while for a Brazilian it would be informal.
Words like "magoar" (hurt your feelings), which in European Portuguese means to hurt physically, in Brazilian Portuguese means to hurt emotionally.
In short, when a game or movie/series
it has subtitles in European Portuguese, it sounds very strange to Brazilians, it's as if the person is speaking a very polite, "archaic" Portuguese.
I don't know if Spanish has as many changes as European and Brazilian Portuguese have.

brazil is the fifth largest country in territorial extension, 217 million inhabitants, many immigrants came to brazil, diversifying peoples and changing portuguese dialect.
To the point that Brazilian Portuguese is very different from European Portuguese, mainly in terms of phonetics.
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danuffo

Mmm... the main difference in the spanish case are the pronouns used for second person in plural form.

Spain is the only country where speakers uses pronoun "vosotros" which would be a plural YOU, used for informal conversations.

In Latin america every spanish speaker uses only pronun "ustedes" which in Spain is the plural YOU used for formal conversations, but here in Mexico and rest of the countries "ustedes" is used for formal and informal conversations.

Also these two pronouns have their verb conjugations:
* "Vosotros sois".
* "Ustedes son".

* "Vosotros tenéis".
* "Ustedes tienen".

The pronouns in spanish are not always written so it can lead to more situations, such as people in Mexico mistaking or confusing verbal conjugations like "tenéis" with "tienes" since not many schools teach that pronoun "vosotros" anymore, they don't know "tenéis" comes from a plural pronoun.

Verbal conjugation "tienes" comes from pronun "tú", the singular person YOU for informal conversations.

"tú tienes" - One person
"vosotros tenéis" - More than one person

It's kinnda curious brazilians did a similar thing but opposite, In Brazil the single person YOU is the changed one, but here in Mexico and rest is the  plural person YOU.

There is still a light third variant: Argentina, Uruguay and some others are using a pronoun called "vos" instead of "tú" for singular, which is similar to that "você" in portuguese.

Other problem in spanish is how some words can mean a vulgar or sexual thing in other countries and how it can be missunderstood, this is the polemic part but maybe the internet will lead us to accept them in the next years since many people watch youtube and other media contents where they are exposed to listen other variants.






Creating adecuate spanish translations for mexicans players.