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Chrono Trigger - KWhazit's Re-Retranslation

Started by wakkoswami, April 12, 2022, 03:02:31 AM

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wakkoswami

I'm working on inserting KWhazit's updated translation from https://kwhazit.ucoz.net/trans/ct/index.html into Chrono Trigger, in addition to trying to fix all the remaining issues that the old retranslation patch had.

The old retranslation patch, and the addendum patches based off it, use KWhazit's original literal retranslation of the japanese text which can come off very unnatural and is hard to read in many places. The addendum patches do clean it up by fixing errors and mixing in text from the official translations, but in doing so they made the old patch more into a frankenstein's monster of various translations rather than having it be its own thing.

This updated translation, while not perfect, is much closer to an official retranslation and stands on its own as something different. A more literal translation than the SNES/DS versions that still sounds natural and is easy to read.




All that being said, this re-retranslation does have its share of problems and some alterations have been made as well, these are the biggest ones:

KWhazit didn't cover all the text in the game in his updated retranslation, so I'm still using the original one for a lot of the side NPCs and miscellaneous text. As a result of this, some of the re-retranslation can still sound rather awkward and unnatural. I've improved a small handful of the worst lines that just don't make sense or work in english by comparing all the various translations to come up with something that does work while trying to keep the original meaning. (EX: How is your awakening? -> Did you sleep well?)

Only 10-11 spaces are available for enemy/item/tech names with item/tech descriptions and enemy battle messages being quite short as well, so I had to cut a lot of text here. I tried to avoid abbreviations in favor of finding something shorter that still gets the point across, and I really tried to avoid going back to the SNES/DS translation unless it just seemed like the best alternative. Crono's weapons probably get it the worst here, I ended up having to use "Swd" for Sword or Katana to get most of them to fit. (EX: Miracle Shot -> WonderShot)

Similarly, Sylbird is too long to fit as a name. If I added in the 6 letter name hack "Sybird" would fit, but removing even 1 letter just makes it a different name, so I decided to stick with Epoch as the default.

Crono's "Aether" element has been changed to "Heaven". I don't want to remake and insert the element graphic and Heaven is a more accurate translation anyways.

"The Magus" has been changed back to just "Magus". The "The" was added in to show that Magus is meant to be more of a title than a name, but there isn't enough room for "The Magus" in a few places. Also, unlike the japanese version, it doesn't end up making much sense if you decide to change his name to something else later on.




I've included every bug fix that I was able to find and implement into the patch. Fixes made outside of the Temporal Flux editor include:

Targeting AI Low HP fix - The lead character wouldn't be properly targeted in some cases if their HP was the lowest in the party.
Character Name Empty Space fix - Trailing spaces removed on names with less than 5 letters.
Third Eye Menu fix - The Third Eye accessory actually raises Evade by 2.5x, the menu now shows this properly.
Double/Triple Tech ATB Delay fix - The mostly broken ATB delay mechanic that only applied to supporting characters in double/triple techniques has been cut out of the game entirely for consistency.




Setting aside bug fixes, I've also included some gameplay changes that I wanted. I may take these out of the main patch later, but for now they're baked in:

Specchio's final form can be fought starting from Level 50 instead of 99.
The 1 respawning Rokk(Rubble) enemy on Grief Mountain no longer respawns.
Robo, Ayla, and Magus learn techniques faster, at the same rate as Marle, Lucca, and Frog.

Dark Matter: Power changed from 38 to 42, same as Flare.
Line Bomb: Damage changed from MegatonBomb's x1 to MegatonBomb's x2. About the same damage as Flare x1.5.
PainMantle(Gloom Cape): Speed +1, Absorbs Dark damage.

And the "Frog Power Up":
Suzaku(Shiva Edge): 4x damage during criticals removed, Critical rate increased from 7% to 20%.
Reborn Grandleon: 4x damage during criticals added
Hero Badge: Raises the Grandleon's Critical rate from 50% to 100%. (0x3DB3F7, changed 32 to 64)




Credits:

KWhazit, ZeaLitY, Geiger, JLukas, Vehek, Lena Andreia, and Kyronea for the original CT Retranslation, and KWhazit again for the updated translation
Doctor L for the Heaven element graphic
belthegor for the JP Title Screen hack
Chronosplit for the Time Menu Update hack
Mike Ferrell for the Unsightly Pixel hack
Mauron and the Chrono Compendium community




Re-Retranslation v1.0 - Apply patch to an unmodified, headered Chrono Trigger rom

https://easyupload.io/120ufn

v1.0 covers everything up to the first trip to the Future. Any text not tied to a location like enemy/item/tech names is done as well.

The next patch will cover everything up to 12,000 BC, and the final patch will come after that.

Midnight Metronome

Literal translations are a brain dead waste of time.

wakkoswami

I guess it's good that this isn't one then?

Red Soul

I'll take a literal translation over a Working Designs style script gorefest, but meeting somewhere in the middle is a good idea. Hopefully the Japanese terminology is kept intact.

Zeality

Let me know if you keep going on this. We'll definitely host it on the Compendium. Putting the dialogue in the ROM the first time around back then literally killed an entire summer.

wakkoswami

Hey! Progress continues at a very, very sloooow pace. I'm not surprised that it took all summer for you the first time around lol.

At this point pretty much everything in 600 & 1000 A.D. is done, the other eras are still being worked on. I'll go ahead and post an update since its been so long. If you're interested in this, you can still play through the whole game. Some parts will just be using the older retranslation.

https://easyupload.io/w3fpa7

Chicken Knife

Word of warning: when my partner and I analyzed Khwazit's Link to the Past retranslation in conjunction with our recent translation project, we found that it was not only literal, but in many cases, it's accuracy was inferior to the original localization. There were an unfortunate number of translation errors. I had that general sense when I played through his original CT translation as well. I hope the new one is a lot more accurate.

julayla

I know how that feels. Some times having the translation be too literal is not always a good idea. It's kind of how I felt with the two of the Sailor Moon SNES games (R and Another Story) for some reason.

Midnight Metronome

Why even bother updating KWhazit retranslation? It's a total waste of time. You never and I mean NEVER translate something literally. It's objectively wrong. There is no debate.

wakkoswami

#9
Quote from: wakkoswami on April 12, 2022, 03:02:31 AMThis updated translation, while not perfect, is much closer to an official retranslation and stands on its own as something different. A more literal translation than the SNES/DS versions that still sounds natural and is easy to read.

https://kwhazit.ucoz.net/trans/ct/index.html

Once again - for the most part, this is no longer a literal translation as you can easily see by looking at this website where all the text is laid out.

How accurate is kwhazit's original retranslation and did they do a good job with the way they chose to later localize the text on their website? I don't know, I don't read or speak Japanese. The website has an email address you can contact for suggestions/corrections and the changelog spans from 2005-2018. I'm going to give kwhazit the benefit of the doubt that some effort was put into this and more of it is right than wrong.

If someone else wants to make further corrections to this when its done, upload their own retranslation, or perhaps the best option of all - stick the DS version's translation into the snes version for all of us to download - then please feel free to do so.

Until then, if you want a snes version of CT where Frog speaks normally like everyone else and gets to call Magus a bastard, or a version where the 3 philosophers/gurus from Zeal aren't turned into biblical references, or a version where alcohol isn't turned into soda, or a version where the magical Excalibur inspired european broadsword isn't named after a Japanese katana/katana-maker, etc., etc., etc., then this may be something you want to try out.

wakkoswami

And I don't know exactly what the rules are on this forum, but posts like these:
Quote from: Midnight Metronome on November 25, 2022, 11:09:20 AMWhy even bother updating KWhazit retranslation? It's a total waste of time. You never and I mean NEVER translate something literally. It's objectively wrong. There is no debate.
Quote from: Midnight Metronome on April 12, 2022, 06:21:28 PMLiteral translations are a brain dead waste of time.
are not very constructive...

Chicken Knife

#11
Quote from: Midnight Metronome on November 25, 2022, 11:09:20 AMWhy even bother updating KWhazit retranslation? It's a total waste of time. You never and I mean NEVER translate something literally. It's objectively wrong. There is no debate.
Agreed that 1:1 literal translation is never a good idea (maintaining Japanese sentence structure, maintaining figures of speech that don't correlate to English, etc.)

But by "literal," some people are really referring to a conservative, Japanese faithful approach, where necessary language modifications are made in order to make things sensible and natural sounding, but the content is never fundamentally changed from the Japanese. This is a great kind of "literal" translation approach.

There are those translations that take a great deal of adaptive license and significantly change the content for whatever reasons, and those translations can have their merit if done well, but conservative translations that are faithful to the source material can be perfectly respectable if executed correctly.

Red Soul

There needs to be a proper distinction established that is sometimes lost to some.
No, literal translations aren't braindead, no, they are not wastes of time, and extreme opinions like that rarely contribute to anything useful. It's all down to the approach, as with most things.

Literal is good as an initial yarding stick. It needs to work in favor of accuracy, and only then, after the script is accurate as possible, you go on to adapt things that require it.

The other extreme is excessive embellishment and additions that have nothing to do with a given context and are just there "for the lols"; it is silly and downright unprofessional.

Fan translations get lambasted when they do this in a very crass manner (J2E's FF4 comes to mind). It may have been important at the time as an alternative to the official thing, but scripts that can (and should) be improved in their accuracy shouldn't be sanctified as holy relics that are "holier than thou" and shouldn't be touched, be they official products or otherwise.

Yes, the CT retranslation is overly literal and can be improved, but it doesn't, by any means, mean the official script is perfect, or that it is even the best possible experience. This very much subjective and you can't "close the matter" with all encompassing statements like we've seen on this thread.

The reason it is subjective is at the very core as to why retranslations even exist. They should exist, for those that want them. For those that do not, the original script will always exist.

All in moderation.

Red Soul

Quote from: wakkoswami on November 25, 2022, 12:55:02 PMUntil then, if you want a snes version of CT where Frog speaks normally like everyone else and gets to call Magus a bastard, or a version where the 3 philosophers/gurus from Zeal aren't turned into biblical references, or a version where alcohol isn't turned into soda, or a version where the magical Excalibur inspired european broadsword isn't named after a Japanese katana/katana-maker, etc., etc., etc., then this may be something you want to try out.

This is the most critical part for me, and a big reason why I enjoy the retranslation, so seeing those elements retained and the rest of it polished will be a great way to enjoy the game. Also the Guns n' Roses stuff for Magus' generals... ugh.
It barely qualified as a good pun in Mega Man X5, much less so here.

Heaven Piercing Man

Quote from: Midnight Metronome on November 25, 2022, 11:09:20 AMWhy even bother updating KWhazit retranslation? It's a total waste of time. You never and I mean NEVER translate something literally. It's objectively wrong. There is no debate.

Calm down, someone in Discord might be conjuring up the ultimate Woolsey-Ireland style retranslation for your tastes.

TheChristoph

We don't need to create a dichotomy.

Some localization choices work for some people and not for other people.
-- I think renaming the gurus after three magi was kinda clever and appropriate to their place in the game. Was anything lost by changing their Japanese names (Hasch, Bosch, and Gasch, IIRC)?
-- I categorically dislike naming the citizens of Medina as Fiends. A Fiend is something that is unambiguously evil, but those living in the village are not evil. They're just people living lives. Adds fun subtext that people that look like monsters can still just be people, and maybe Chrono doesn't need to shove his sword through the face of every nonhuman he meets.
-- Semi-related: I like Frog's anachronistic speech. "Why is he the only one who talks like that?" Perhaps because he's been turned into a monster and he overcompensates by acting overly proper. The subtext that his charms worked on Leene is fun if you let your imagination work a little.

Some localization choices, well, it's hard not to call them just wrong. Grandleon / Masamune was a good example brought up earlier. I'm guessing that they used Masamune as a hamfisted Final Fantasy reference.

Some will find that aspects of the original Japanese are just as bad as some of the egregious localization choices. Magus' goons' food pun names in the Japanese versions are about ten times sillier to me and are just as inappropriate to their place in the tale as Ozzie, Flea, and Slash. Ozzie can have a silly name, the others are fairly serious villains.

And the censored stuff (I feel like that's a dramatic word to use but I don't know a better one)... Toma's soda is silly and it wouldn't have lost any impact if it was 'cider' or even just 'drink'. Changing it to 'sprits' or 'booze' would be better. Swearing and other religious references always seem try-hard or goofy to me in these older, cartoony games, so I don't miss them when they're gone (I know, funny that I like the three wise men names, but they're more like easter eggs to me).

Well, that was a lot more than I intended to say which nobody cares about, but whatever.  :laugh:

PowerPanda

Quote from: TheChristoph on December 04, 2022, 03:11:04 PMSome localization choices, well, it's hard not to call them just wrong. Grandleon / Masamune was a good example brought up earlier. I'm guessing that they used Masamune as a hamfisted Final Fantasy reference.

I've wondered about that, and I've wondered if it had more to do with Masa and Mune in their separate forms. In Japanese, Grandleon is グランドリオン, which can be separated into 3 parts: グラン.ド .リオン. The middle character is Do (ド), the voiced form of To (ト), which means "and". Note that changing from an unvoiced consonant to its voiced equivalent when creating compound words is fairly common in Japanese. So, taken together, it is literally "Gran and Leon". One could argue that "Gran" and "and" could form "Grand" in English, but it's not obvious that you're throwing the word "and" in there. Also, "Gran" is a weird name in English, as that is a common shortening of "Grandma". So I tend to give a bit of grace on that one.

On a sidenote, I learned today that Chrono Cross's "Mastermune" in Japanese is "Grand Dream", since Dream and Doreen are both written similarly in Japanese. That's some clever word play.