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Older Games with Epilepsy

Started by julayla, March 23, 2022, 09:58:37 AM

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julayla

You know, looking at some of the games, I notice many of the older games that can cause seizures for those that are highly sensitive. I know because I felt a little dizzy at playing one of those. But the thing I'm talking about is what older games are the ones that do have epilepsy?

Jorpho

Quotewhat older games are the ones that do have epilepsy?

I hope you realize this question makes no sense?

If you're looking for a comprehensive list of games that might be problematic for people sensitive to such things, it is probably hopeless to compile such a list, as some people will inevitably be more sensitive than others.

I for one never really heard of any such concerns until the news of the infamous Porygon episode of Pokemon appeared, so anything after that point (the start of 1998?) is probably safer.
This signature is an illusion and is a trap devised by Satan. Go ahead dauntlessly! Make rapid progres!

julayla

What I meant were games that causes seizures and since there now exists a few rom hacks to fix these, I wanted to know what other games causes seizures and which of them needs to be fixed?

FAST6191

You would probably be better served going to an epilepsy specific forum to get a list of known trouble games. Though I imagine they would be more likely to have a whitelist than a blacklist. Someone might be able to adjust a game accordingly, though it is a tricky task -- if we can barely be assured of having good line length in a game without having to revise that then making some kind of medical assurance in a hacked game that could dip back into things... tricky.

As above though I don't know how troubling such things are likely to be -- rules on what goes have been fairly strict for a while ( https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0021/16248/gn_flash.pdf , ofcom being the UK equivalent of the FCC in the US in that they are concerned with broadcast standards and such like, referencing 90s though that would be newer than some games, also having some guidance on limits for things albeit for PAL).

xenophile

Quote from: julayla on March 24, 2022, 03:46:46 PM
What I meant were games that causes seizures and since there now exists a few rom hacks to fix these, I wanted to know what other games causes seizures and which of them needs to be fixed?

Zelda II was the first one I ever heard mentioned. There are hacks for that and a few others mentioned in this thread: https://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=31500

I've done a hack of Final Fantasy to remove flashing on casting spells, and a few other effects. I'm not sure if it causes seizures, but it can't be great. I've been meaning to release this, but I never seem to get around to it.

I also did a hack of Dragon Warrior to remove flashing in combat and walking through swamps, but somehow about one in ten times it still flashes.

KingMike

If I remember, the flashing when casting spells might have been from lacking a proper casting animation like FF4.
Then again, it could have been just as pointless as the flashing and palette cycling when opening/closing the main menu and I think entering/leaving shops.
I think the Virtual Console releases removed them and that was for the better. It was ugly and slowed down the game anyways.
"My watch says 30 chickens" Google, 2018

xenophile

Quote from: KingMike on March 25, 2022, 03:02:35 AM
If I remember, the flashing when casting spells might have been from lacking a proper casting animation like FF4.
Then again, it could have been just as pointless as the flashing and palette cycling when opening/closing the main menu and I think entering/leaving shops.
I think the Virtual Console releases removed them and that was for the better. It was ugly and slowed down the game anyways.

I released what I'm calling Final Fantasy Flash Reduction. I don't know anything about Virtual Console, but the NES Mini version still had the flashing and that was the platform my friend was using. I think the Mini is supposed to have a anti-flashing filter in at least Kirby's Adventure, but it seemed easier to just make a rom hack then to figure out how their filter works.

gamingcat02261991

There was Kirby Super Star, which had flashes of light that happened whenever a boss was defeated. The Virtual Console and Nintendo Switch Online rereleases of it not only removed the flashing, which sped up gameplay, but also received a somewhat unrelated major bug regarding both Combo Cannon and Marx exhibiting odd behavior during their respective beam attacks, which also may have caused epilepsy. To my knowledge, there's no known patches or bugfixes for the original and rereleases, respectively.

MathOnNapkins

A few years ago someone asked me to look at some of the slight differences they found in the Wii Virtual Console rom of TLoZ: A Link To the Past from the original USA release, and I found that they dulled the colors of the flashes that occur when the sword meets the shield in the title screen. Normally it would cycle through full saturation red, green, and blue, but I found in the VC version that the intensities for each were roughly halved. It seemed plausible to me at the time that they did this to cut down on the risk for photosensitive / epileptic people. On the other hand, it's also possible they thought that it looked too garish as originally implemented, I can't say for sure what it was, but I've heard that a handful of games on Virtual Console had similar modifications, so it does appear to have been somewhat systematically changed across various titles.

MD_Prometh

One of Quistis' Blue Magic spells in FFVIII has some intense flashing

Jorpho

Link's Awakening GB also got a few screen flashes fixed.
https://tcrf.net/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Link%27s_Awakening_(Game_Boy)/Version_Differences#Screen_Flashes

Quote from: gamingcat02261991 on March 27, 2022, 08:47:16 PMbut also received a somewhat unrelated major bug regarding both Combo Cannon and Marx exhibiting odd behavior during their respective beam attacks
Are there more details about this somewhere? It's always neat to hear about what major bugs Nintendo deems worthy of fixing. TCRF notes this too but doesn't go into it much.
This signature is an illusion and is a trap devised by Satan. Go ahead dauntlessly! Make rapid progres!

PhyChris

yeah, its the flashing frequency matching the brains malfunctioning parts frequency on some level. Light intensity and eye's field of view coverage have a BIG effect on this.
It is normal to feel a little off around strobe lights tho, even without epilepsy.     

gamingcat02261991

Quote from: Jorpho on March 28, 2022, 10:21:22 AM
TCRF notes this too but doesn't go into it much.

TCRF needs to get with the times. The reason why I found out about the odd behavior is because when I used to play my Nintendo Wii that I got in Christmas of 2009 (R.I.P., Internal Disc Scanner; 2009-2019), I downloaded Kirby Super Star back when my parents (who were both still alive at the time) got me 2,000 Wii Points via the purchaseable $20 cards on occasion (usually, every month after I connected it to Wi-Fi for the first time). When I first played it, not only did I notice the speedup regarding when a boss is defeated, but also the aforementioned odd behavior regarding Combo Cannon and Marx. Keep in mind this was before the Wii U and Nintendo Switch came out in 2012 and 2017, respectively.

Jorpho

Quote from: gamingcat02261991 on May 17, 2022, 04:36:53 AMthe aforementioned odd behavior regarding Combo Cannon and Marx.
Yes, you did mention the "odd behavior" before, but I still have no idea what this behavior is and what makes it particularly "odd".
This signature is an illusion and is a trap devised by Satan. Go ahead dauntlessly! Make rapid progres!

gamingcat02261991

Well, it's available on NSO, Jorpho. Why not play it and see for yourself (unless you don't have a subscription)?

The Beaky Buccaneer

Quote from: Jorpho on March 23, 2022, 10:39:55 AM
I for one never really heard of any such concerns until the news of the infamous Porygon episode of Pokemon appeared, so anything after that point (the start of 1998?) is probably safer.
In the UK it's been well-known since the infamous "NINTENDO KILLED MY SON" newspaper headline in 1993. It led to better awareness of epilepsy and research into its links to video games, and most video game publishers included epilepsy-warning cards in their boxes after that. We still see issues with software to this day, though, unfortunately (the most recent one to make headlines was Cyberpunk 2077, as far as I know).

Quote from: gamingcat02261991 on May 28, 2022, 04:13:50 AM
Well, it's available on NSO, Jorpho. Why not play it and see for yourself (unless you don't have a subscription)?
I don't have a Nintendo Switch myself, so I'd be interested to know if a description or footage of this oddness is available anywhere. ;)

Jorpho

Quote from: The Beaky Buccaneer on May 28, 2022, 05:18:55 AM
I don't have a Nintendo Switch myself, so I'd be interested to know if a description or footage of this oddness is available anywhere. ;)
Indeed, I don't have a Switch either.
This signature is an illusion and is a trap devised by Satan. Go ahead dauntlessly! Make rapid progres!

KingMike

Quote from: The Beaky Buccaneer on May 28, 2022, 05:18:55 AM
In the UK it's been well-known since the infamous "NINTENDO KILLED MY SON" newspaper headline in 1993. It led to better awareness of epilepsy and research into its links to video games, and most video game publishers included epilepsy-warning cards in their boxes after that. We still see issues with software to this day, though, unfortunately (the most recent one to make headlines was Cyberpunk 2077, as far as I know).
I don't have a Nintendo Switch myself, so I'd be interested to know if a description or footage of this oddness is available anywhere. ;)
In the US, I know what Nintendo did amounted to putting warnings on the boxes, as well as including a safety warning booklet at least with every new SNES game I got as a kid, and I think every Game Boy game as well.
I would say it wasn't until after the Pokemon anime incident in December 1997 they got to being considerate of that in the game programming themselves.
"My watch says 30 chickens" Google, 2018

The Beaky Buccaneer

Quote from: KingMike on May 31, 2022, 04:31:53 PM
In the US, I know what Nintendo did amounted to putting warnings on the boxes, as well as including a safety warning booklet at least with every new SNES game I got as a kid, and I think every Game Boy game as well.
I would say it wasn't until after the Pokemon anime incident in December 1997 they got to being considerate of that in the game programming themselves.
Yeah, that's true - nobody really did much programming-wise until the Porygon incident. It's just unfortunate that it's still not dealt with as well as it should be in general (though I'd say that Nintendo's done better than most).

Nintendo's retro re-releases handle this stuff well by current standards (and it's easier on the eyes even if you don't have photosensitive epilepsy, I find), though I did notice that it made the Star Fox games on the SNES Mini a bit tricky to "read" at times, since the flash-reduction there replaces the bright whites with the same greys that are used on most ships, so you can't always tell if you've registered a hit on certain bosses.