Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion

[hmsong]

I mean I suggested nerfing the L2/3 tech damage formula specifically for monsters but noone wanted that.

I think that perhaps everyone misunderstood you.  At least I did.  I would like nerf, if it's for normal monsters and shadowzero, but not bosses.  Either that, or only nerf enemy and boss MT lv2/3 techs, but not ST techs.

Would that be possible?

[soul_knight]

Debatable; they are probably only non-elemental because they don't matter vs players in vanilla so they didn't bother setting those flags.

That too, but now that I replay the game again, I realize those damn Goblins in the beginning using the non-elemental Hand Axe, which do ~58 damage, when I only have ~110 HP and limited resource.  And it's pretty much guaranteed that those early ones will be during the Mana Holy Day.  Not cool.

[praetarius5018]

I think that perhaps everyone misunderstood you.  At least I did.  I would like nerf, if it's for normal monsters and shadowzero, but not bosses.  Either that, or only nerf enemy and boss MT lv2/3 techs, but not ST techs.

Would that be possible?

Technically possible but why?
If melee can provoke counters Bill/Ben, Lugar and Darkshine Knight with unnerfed L3 techs are kinda unreasonable?

That too, but now that I replay the game again, I realize those damn Goblins in the beginning using the non-elemental Hand Axe, which do ~58 damage, when I only have ~110 HP and limited resource.  And it's pretty much guaranteed that those early ones will be during the Mana Holy Day.  Not cool.

spell damage scaling for enemies is a whole can of worms...
like the tier1 spells are just stat x6 plus some base multiply with a level based value up to 190% at lv40 with stat from 3 to 20
so the damage starts very scary (60 damage vs 110 hp, limited resources to heal) and then becomes barely relevant (200 damage vs 900 hp, hundreds of heal items in storage and likely also heal spell known).

well, changing that would go way beyond the intend of the fix patch

[Mr X]

In my opinion, I think people might be asking too much out of a patch intending only the fixes of the original game, at that point just play the Sin of Mana mod or make a new SD3 mod for intentions more than that

Just my two cents

[soul_knight]

spell damage scaling for enemies is a whole can of worms...
like the tier1 spells are just stat x6 plus some base multiply with a level based value up to 190% at lv40 with stat from 3 to 20
so the damage starts very scary (60 damage vs 110 hp, limited resources to heal) and then becomes barely relevant (200 damage vs 900 hp, hundreds of heal items in storage and likely also heal spell known).

well, changing that would go way beyond the intend of the fix patch

Oh, I'm not asking you to change the damage scaling for enemies.  I'm simply asking you to not give Mana Holy Day the boost to non element.  That's all.

[praetarius5018]

In my opinion, I think people might be asking too much out of a patch intending only the fixes of the original game, at that point just play the Sin of Mana mod or make a new SD3 mod for intentions more than that

well, this is a topic for several SD3 mods not just the bugfix one, so brainstorming such changes is valid.

but as for me - I just wait for a suggestion or random idea of how to scale the "random" counter triggers against luck.
like in my thrown out idea of 15x or 40x LUCK_ADJUST what should LUCK_ADJUST be?

Oh, I'm not asking you to change the damage scaling for enemies.  I'm simply asking you to not give Mana Holy Day the boost to non element.  That's all.

Actually, that is even preferable to me since that should just be changing one date point from 00 into an FF, otherwise I'd have to change the day logic itself.

[hmsong]

Technically possible but why?
If melee can provoke counters Bill/Ben, Lugar and Darkshine Knight with unnerfed L3 techs are kinda unreasonable?

Well, Lugar and Darkshine Knight's MT techs are unreasonable, because currently, they can combo.  I know you're still brainstorming about the combo issue, so this is just one way resolve that issue, although it depends on how much they are nerfed.

And Shadowzero... Those are just so so deadly.  Unreasonably deadly.  They need to be nerfed, I feel.

[praetarius5018]

Well, Lugar and Darkshine Knight's MT techs are unreasonable, because currently, they can combo.  I know you're still brainstorming about the combo issue, so this is just one way resolve that issue, although it depends on how much they are nerfed.

It would also affect the MT techs they can cast whenever they feel like it, so those two issues aren't 100% related.

I'm taking ideas for that; could e.g. just reduce the atk to 75% its usual value.
E.g. vanilla is for 300 atk:
300 x2.5 - def = 750 - def, so at least 450
changed:
300 x0.75 x2.5 - def = 562 - def, so 262 at max def
or maybe only 7/8 penalty
300 x7/8 x2.5 - def = 655 - def, so 355 at max def

And Shadowzero... Those are just so so deadly.  Unreasonably deadly.  They need to be nerfed, I feel.

They copy 1:1 the stats of whoever they copy. The only thing they don't copy is spells known.

[hmsong]

It would also affect the MT techs they can cast whenever they feel like it, so those two issues aren't 100% related.

Oh, right.  Dang it.  I guess resolving the combo issue by simply weakening the MT tech has unwanted side effect.  Argh.

I'm taking ideas for that; could e.g. just reduce the atk to 75% its usual value.
E.g. vanilla is for 300 atk:
300 x2.5 - def = 750 - def, so at least 450
changed:
300 x0.75 x2.5 - def = 562 - def, so 262 at max def
or maybe only 7/8 penalty
300 x7/8 x2.5 - def = 655 - def, so 355 at max def

How much power is weakened for MT spells, relative to the ST spells?  is it 75%?  7/8?

[praetarius5018]

How much power is weakened for MT spells, relative to the ST spells?  is it 75%?  7/8?

ST spells and always-MT spells (ancient, summons, ...) get +25%; basically anything that has the one/all option and is all-casted doesn't get the bonus.

Could instead also try subtracting 2x target's AGL from enemy L2/3 techs before the multiplier, could help making that stat slightly more useful.

because their powerful attacks are all non-elemental (which is why I don't want any day to boost the non-elemental attacks -- all godbeast unique skills, all final boss unique skills, etc).

thinking about it - isn't that then also a bug?
I mean you specifically have the option for light Duran to adjust his shield to a given boss and then they "don't work" because what looks like a fire attack is non-elemental.

[hmsong]

ST spells and always-MT spells (ancient, summons, ...) get +25%; basically anything that has the one/all option and is all-casted doesn't get the bonus.

Could instead also try subtracting 2x target's AGL from enemy L2/3 techs before the multiplier, could help making that stat slightly more useful.

Interesting.  It could indeed.  I'm sure there are numerous case-in-points, but that'll save 30~44 HP by the end.  Seems a bit small though, so maybe x3 or x4 AGL? (typically, by the final dungeon, when enemies use Lv3 techs, and they usually do 300 damage or something.  Of course, you're only referring to the enemy MT techs, right?

thinking about it - isn't that then also a bug?
I mean you specifically have the option for light Duran to adjust his shield to a given boss and then they "don't work" because what looks like a fire attack is non-elemental.

True, but if they're given some kind of element property, then Matango Oil will become so powerful, because Matango Oil reflects anything with elements.  It's basically a repeat of Koren fight.  And unlike Secret of Mana, the reflected damage ignores the caster's elemental defense (ex: if Dangaard uses Thunderbolt, and I have Matango Oil on myself, then Dangaard takes damage, instead of absorbing the Thunderbolt damage).

[praetarius5018]

Interesting.  It could indeed.  I'm sure there are numerous case-in-points, but that'll save 30~44 HP by the end.  Seems a bit small though, so maybe x3 or x4 AGL? (typically, by the final dungeon, when enemies use Lv3 techs, and they usually do 300 damage or something.  Of course, you're only referring to the enemy MT techs, right?

2x before multiplier
so 60~88 for L2 techs or 75~99 for L3 techs

yes, only if the target is a player unit

[hmsong]

2x before multiplier
so 60~88 for L2 techs or 75~99 for L3 techs

yes, only if the target is a player unit

Oh.  That makes sense.  It's not gonna save players from combo, but it's definitely something.  Maybe that and reduced counter rate (half?) will be enough to survive the fight? (unless RNG hates you).

[praetarius5018]

Oh.  That makes sense.  It's not gonna save players from combo, but it's definitely something.  Maybe that and reduced counter rate (half?) will be enough to survive the fight? (unless RNG hates you).

RNG will always hate you; just like nothing stops it currently from throwing 2-3 nightblades at you that immediatly split image slice you when you enter the room.

[hmsong]

RNG will always hate you; just like nothing stops it currently from throwing 2-3 nightblades at you that immediatly split image slice you when you enter the room.

True that.  But reducing the chance of it venting its hatred on you is always good.

[Mr X]

Is there any reason why the defense cap wont go past 300 with max vit and final armors? It feels they are kinda useless when you can reach the 300 defense cap with pedan armor + vit

[hmsong]

Is there any reason why the defense cap wont go past 300 with max vit and final armors? It feels they are kinda useless when you can reach the 300 defense cap with pedan armor + vit

Probably because if it goes past 300 normally, most normal enemies' melee attacks won't do anything other than 1.

[praetarius5018]

Is there any reason why the defense cap wont go past 300 with max vit and final armors? It feels they are kinda useless when you can reach the 300 defense cap with pedan armor + vit

that's just the cap they were set to.
as for "why?", no idea. probably would've made Kevin too OP for square's tastes.

[Mr X]

that's just the cap they were set to.
as for "why?", no idea. probably would've made Kevin too OP for square's tastes.

Fair enough, don't want Kevin to have monstrous defense on top of his already monstrous strength, lol.

[praetarius5018]

Fair enough, don't want Kevin to have monstrous defense on top of his already monstrous strength, lol.

Writing it down it begs the question:
this it make him less OP (no imba defense) or more OP (just the VIT from class change alone should be enough to cap def)