Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion

[hmsong]

@praetarius5018

Hey.  I know that most enemies use Lise's stats (prob because she's the most rounded character), but which class of Lise do the enemies take?  LL?  DD?  Or does it depend on which class Lise chose, if she's on the team?

[Mr X]

I think I will try to combine some of these hacks with the bugfix patch, especially the less experience to grind def that one

If there's one thing I would like even less exp required to level up. Imo level ups should he done naturally by simply beating enemies on your way through the dungeon instead of going in a grindfest, in the original game I barely even learned all the spells of the characters due to the tedious grind, so I ended up facing the final boss without learning all spells.

[praetarius5018]

@praetarius5018

Hey.  I know that most enemies use Lise's stats (prob because she's the most rounded character), but which class of Lise do the enemies take?  LL?  DD?  Or does it depend on which class Lise chose, if she's on the team?

always regular -> L -> L/L
the game just uses the "brightness" 0 value.

If there's one thing I would like even less exp required to level up. Imo level ups should he done naturally by simply beating enemies on your way through the dungeon instead of going in a grindfest, in the original game I barely even learned all the spells of the characters due to the tedious grind, so I ended up facing the final boss without learning all spells.

Any suggestion how to accomplish that? Like, how much increase would be necessary?
We've hmsong's less grinding patch, fix patch has some rubber banding (up to +100% gain if 3 or more level behind), what more should be done?

Btw. someone has feedback on how much the rubberband helps for actual play?

[soul_knight]

Btw. someone has feedback on how much the rubberband helps for actual play?

It helps a lot.  SOOO much less grinding.  It does sort of "punish" players if the player decides to not catch up the level and plow through the dungeon for the higher level enemies in the next dungeon, because the players would run out of money for the weapon/armor before fighting the said higher enemies (which will get you killed, or at least have you use up items).  Luckily, hmsong's less grinding gives a bit of surplus of money, but not enough to offset the "dungeon skippers".  And that's a good thing, imho, because it encourages players to catch up a bit before moving on.

Btw, it's not exactly 25%, 50%, and 100% (not that I'm complaining -- just reporting something I noticed).  For example, for Lampflower Mega Crawler, vanilla Lv22 drops 115 exp, Lv23 drops 129 exp, and Lv24 drops 145 exp.  If I were Lv21, then Lv22 drops 144 (+25.2%), Lv23 drops 203 (+57.3%), and Lv24 drops 286 (+97.2%).

I know someone is gonna disagree with this (I forget who), but can you make Mana Holy Day boost all elements, instead of none of them?  Mana Holy Day is so... mundane.

[praetarius5018]

Btw, it's not exactly 25%, 50%, and 100% (not that I'm complaining -- just reporting something I noticed).  For example, for Lampflower Mega Crawler, vanilla Lv22 drops 115 exp, Lv23 drops 129 exp, and Lv24 drops 145 exp.  If I were Lv21, then Lv22 drops 144 (+25.2%), Lv23 drops 203 (+57.3%), and Lv24 drops 286 (+97.2%).

Sounds about right, asm based rounding (whole numbers each step) and all.
Truth be told, I just run a loop and increase the exp by 25% and +1 each iteration (max 3), so it should be more like 25%, 56.25%, 95.3125% at a minimum.
Easier to increase the max level difference that way instead of having a billion cases for each possible level difference.

I know someone is gonna disagree with this (I forget who), but can you make Mana Holy Day boost all elements, instead of none of them?  Mana Holy Day is so... mundane.

Glass cannon day!!
Maybe as an extra patch.

[hmsong]

I know someone is gonna disagree with this (I forget who), but can you make Mana Holy Day boost all elements, instead of none of them?  Mana Holy Day is so... mundane.

That was me.  I requested Mana Holy Day to boost Light or Dark, depending on the time of the day.  I still think that's a good idea, but apparently, nobody else thinks that.

[kaine23]

Im down for that

[praetarius5018]

That was me.  I requested Mana Holy Day to boost Light or Dark, depending on the time of the day.  I still think that's a good idea, but apparently, nobody else thinks that.

I'm not splitting that by day/night time though.
It would go a bit far against Kevin - I know I'm bashing a lot on him for being OP but making it so almost all endgame bosses deal extra damage during the only time Kevin is "operational" would make him a liability.

Not sure if that day should include non-elemental.

[hmsong]

I'm not splitting that by day/night time though.
It would go a bit far against Kevin - I know I'm bashing a lot on him for being OP but making it so almost all endgame bosses deal extra damage during the only time Kevin is "operational" would make him a liability.

Not sure if that day should include non-elemental.

Huh?  I don't think most endgame bosses will do any extra damage due to light/dark boost, because their powerful attacks are all non-elemental (which is why I don't want any day to boost the non-elemental attacks -- all godbeast unique skills, all final boss unique skills, etc).  I mean, I understand why they're non-elemental, since the devs didn't want those to be reflected.  Anyways, there are only 5 dark element skills -- Evil Gate, Dark Force, Crescent (no enemies have this skill), Black Rain, and Ghost Road.  I think only Gorva can use Ghost Road and Black Rain (other than Black Rabite using Black Rain on himself).

[Messianic]

Jagan also uses Black Rain and Ghost Road.


So what is going on with melee counters? Has a balanced rate been decided on?

[praetarius5018]

So what is going on with melee counters? Has a balanced rate been decided on?

Not yet.

[hmsong]

Also, when I said light and dark boost, I was just talking about during Mana Holy Day, not everyday.  So both light and dark will get half a day each, out of 7 days.

[praetarius5018]

Also, when I said light and dark boost, I was just talking about during Mana Holy Day, not everyday.  So both light and dark will get half a day each, out of 7 days.

Imo that would only change if I would have to waste 6x the gold in an inn or not to get the mana day daytime; light is already by far the best element.

[hmsong]

Imo that would only change if I would have to waste 6x the gold in an inn or not to get the mana day daytime; light is already by far the best element.

I agree it's the best, but it only gets half a day (and impossible during the final battle).  And most characters don't have holy attacks.

I just want a moment of the week that's specifically for Wisp and another moment specifically for Shade.  All other elements got their day.  The two elements deserve their moments, even if only for half a day.  That's all.

[praetarius5018]

I agree it's the best, but it only gets half a day (and impossible during the final battle).  And most characters don't have holy attacks.

I just want a moment of the week that's specifically for Wisp and another moment specifically for Shade.  All other elements got their day.  The two elements deserve their moments, even if only for half a day.  That's all.

I get that but I feel like that makes certain classes (and rare chest items) way too strong.
Getting the claw that simulates saint saber from a rare chest already gives you like double damage because of the whole atk increase before def, giving that yet another +25% goes way too far (we're now talking 250%+ compared to not having that lucky drop); it would probably encourage very stupid strategies (save scumming for the drop or even less variety in class "viability")

[hmsong]

I get that but I feel like that makes certain classes (and rare chest items) way too strong.
Getting the claw that simulates saint saber from a rare chest already gives you like double damage because of the whole atk increase before def, giving that yet another +25% goes way too far (we're now talking 250%+ compared to not having that lucky drop); it would probably encourage very stupid strategies (save scumming for the drop or even less variety in class "viability")

Wait, what?  Day boost gives +25%?  I thought it only gave fixed amount boost.

[praetarius5018]

Wait, what?  Day boost gives +25%?  I thought it only gave fixed amount boost.

+25% before defense

[hmsong]

+25% before defense

Err... I don't suppose there's a way to move that 25% to the end of the formula, right?  If not that, then reduce the element weakness exploit from +50% to +33% before defense? (yes, this will weaken Angela, but given that it weakens sabers, I think it's worth it)

Still, I think half day boost is a good idea.  Sure, players can take adv of day boost on Mana Holy Day (if they have holy saber or attack), but at least we won't see Kevin double boost.  Plus, having these tiny little elements make the game more fun.  Think about Castlevania SOTN.  People loved it because of so many ways to "exploit" the hidden features to overpower enemies.  Besides, enemies having melee counter (however little chance) will raise the difficulty significantly.  I think a little helping hand to players will be nice.

The most concerning is Dark Lord at night on Mana Holy Day.  MT Lv3 tech after Dark Saber, and everyone's dead.  At least for vanilla (I decreased the power of enemy MT Lv3 techs in balance).

[soul_knight]

That was me.  I requested Mana Holy Day to boost Light or Dark, depending on the time of the day.  I still think that's a good idea, but apparently, nobody else thinks that.

I have no problem with that.  I'm the same as you in that regards -- I just want Mana Holy Day to mean something.  Anything.  It's supposed to represent Sunday, the most grand day of the week.  So Mana Holy Day has to be grand.

Err... I don't suppose there's a way to move that 25% to the end of the formula, right?  If not that, then reduce the element weakness exploit from +50% to +33% before defense? (yes, this will weaken Angela, but given that it weakens sabers, I think it's worth it)

Hmm.  Saber is indeed strong, but with melee counter being a thing now, does it even matter if the melee is too strong?

Plus, having these tiny little elements make the game more fun.  Think about Castlevania SOTN.  People loved it because of so many ways to "exploit" the hidden features to overpower enemies.  Besides, enemies having melee counter (however little chance) will raise the difficulty significantly.  I think a little helping hand to players will be nice.

God, I love SOTN.  So many neat things in there.  I recently played SOTN on PSP, and found about Muramasa's secrets, and damn, it's awesome.  I had to leave my game on with a weight on my turbo button to to power it up, but still.  Awesome.

Not sure if that day should include non-elemental.

I was gonna say I want Mana Holy Day to boost the non elemental, but then after what hmsong said (apparently, all the signature enemy magic's non elemental), I changed my mind.  Please don't boost non element.  Thank you.

[praetarius5018]

Err... I don't suppose there's a way to move that 25% to the end of the formula, right?  If not that, then reduce the element weakness exploit from +50% to +33% before defense? (yes, this will weaken Angela, but given that it weakens sabers, I think it's worth it)

I think if I moved def there that'll cause a ton of additional problems.
If I remember right we're there before modifiers of crits and Lv1 techs, so those'd be nerfed as well.
Just consider Angela without power up: she'd NEVER be able to deal over 1 damage. (220ish atk? vs 220-245 def)

Still, I think half day boost is a good idea.  Sure, players can take adv of day boost on Mana Holy Day (if they have holy saber or attack), but at least we won't see Kevin double boost.

Sorry, but I'll not deal with day/night checks.

The most concerning is Dark Lord at night on Mana Holy Day.  MT Lv3 tech after Dark Saber, and everyone's dead.

Eh, that is only like ~400 atk after saber buff x2.5 x1.25 - def = 1250 - def so less than 999, you'll be fine.
I mean I suggested nerfing the L2/3 tech damage formula specifically for monsters but noone wanted that.

I was gonna say I want Mana Holy Day to boost the non elemental, but then after what hmsong said (apparently, all the signature enemy magic's non elemental), I changed my mind.  Please don't boost non element.

Debatable; they are probably only non-elemental because they don't matter vs players in vanilla so they didn't bother setting those flags.