Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion

[praetarius5018]

I don't know what hmsong meant by "3 times in a row": did one of the character strike the enemy between each counter?
If not - that is, that counters are are checked for each strike and stacked until all occur - said stack could be emptied after one counter?

it probably works the same way as poisoned silver knights spamming 3-5 tinkle rains - I'm not dealing with that.

Regarding a correct percentage for melee counters... The ideal should be a ratio of damage inflicted/damage received equilavent to that of the use of skills?

ok, so lets assume death spell or a lv2 spell with mind up, mind down and correct day hitting a weakness or something; should put us into the 800-999 range.

what do we compare it to?
duelist duran, power up, elemental saber vs def down'd final boss?
so 350 atk x 1.2 x 1.5 - (220 x 0.8 ) = 630 - 176 = 454
that is not even getting to techs or crits...
you're right, I should increase the 1/8 of spell counter rate to 1/2

[Messianic]

Melee Counter is a fascinating thing to me, and perhaps 1/16th of Spell Counter is the way to go. I think having melee possibly trigger stuff lends to solving the whole "I don't want to nuke enemies, so I'll just melee all day" issue.

My only concern is if your party is positioned in such a way that each party member is hitting multiple enemies per swing, the chance of getting "juggled" with counters becomes quite high.

[hmsong]

The whole thing is a textbook example of "be careful what you wish for you might get exactly what you ask".
Even if it was only 1%, nothing stops you from getting 3 of those within like 5-7 hits. Since it is chance per hit it penalizes Hawk and Kevin extra. though that may be fair since they also gain TP at twice the rate.

So what now? How do you want to proceed with this?

Well, I think the idea of creating any hack is to improve what was done (including your own hacks).  A person presents an idea, and someone creates it, then tests it out to see the flaws of the creation, then correct those flaws.  That's why I value feedback.  I'm sure you feel the same way, although it can get annoying from time to time.

Anyways, there are 3 ways I can think of to resolve the comboing issue.

1. Make the small bosses (and enemies) do what the big bosses do -- use magic/tech every 10 sec or something (maybe you can make it so that [char Luck vs target Level] is a factor in determining the magic attack frequency).  Yes, that means Counters (melee or magic) are no longer used.  That'll resolve any combo issues.  This was actually my request, although I admit I worded my request very poorly.

2. Disable counters for magic (this will encourage players to use magic/tech), but enable melee counter.  The melee counter rate should be ~3% (as recent experiment indicated, ~7% is too high).  Not sure how to apply Luck stat here though.  And yes, this may result in the bosses still using "skill combo" which may result in total party kill, but the rate of that happening will be significantly less.  Of course, if it still happens, then you gotta reset and start over, but the idea is to reduce the chance.  And again, it'll encourage players to use magic and Lv2/3 techs more frequently, which is good.

3. This may be a bit confusing.  I'll try to articulate as best as I can.

Using 20 Luck vs Darkshine Knight example, the counter rate being out of 51 made the players (err, me) be very afraid of using skills.  I mean, even at 20 Luck (that's the highest of all char/class at Lv44), the magic counter rate is still whooping 61%?  I think that's too much.  Also, I don't know where you got "51".  If your previous formula for boss is (25+target level/2), then DSK's Lv being 44, the number must be out of 47.  A typo?

Therefore, I think the number should be out of (5+target level/2) for regular enemies or (10+target level/2) for bosses, and melee counter should be 1/16 instead of 1/8.  Hawk LD's max Luck (highest Luck char/class) at Lv44 is 20.  So against Lv44 enemies, regular enemies have 7/27 (26%) chance to magic counter and 1.6% of melee counter (this is significantly more reasonable, because most dangerous regular enemies have HP threshold techs), and bosses have 12/32 (37.5%) chance to magic counter and 2.3% of melee counter.  And that's the best case scenario, since Hawk has the highest Luck.  Most characters will have ~16 Luck (if it's raised), which results in higher counter rate.



@kaine23, @ifightdragons

First of all, the reason for having multiple hacks is so that people can choose what hacks to use and what not to use.  I can't make something that can use "toggle" function, like SoM Turbo.  If you have some suggestion (something specific, like "use program xxx to make a toggle function"), then please point it out to me.  If it's viable (and I'm intelligent enough to learn it), then I shall use it to meet your request.

Second, while I can complie all my hacks into one, that's only ~7 hacks (most people seem to only use ~4 hacks), which takes less than 20 sec to patch.  I think it's pretty reasonable to ask people to spend their 20 seconds to patch the hacks.

Third, everytime I update my hack (which is rather frequent, as you pointed out), the compilation hack will have to be updated too, which instantly doubles my work (and it's a pain to submit hacks to RHDN).  Now, I can make it so that I have one whole compilation and get rid of everything else (that'll make my work much simpler, as I'll only have to deal with one hack whenever I update), but then, people won't have a choice on what to use and what not to use.  I'm fairly certain that most people want to choose.

[Zimgief]

it probably works the same way as poisoned silver knights spamming 3-5 tinkle rains - I'm not dealing with that.
ok, so lets assume death spell or a lv2 spell with mind up, mind down and correct day hitting a weakness or something; should put us into the 800-999 range.

what do we compare it to?
duelist duran, power up, elemental saber vs def down'd final boss?
so 350 atk x 1.2 x 1.5 - (220 x 0.8 ) = 630 - 176 = 454
that is not even getting to techs or crits...
you're right, I should increase the 1/8 of spell counter rate to 1/2

My second point (fixed ratio) was assuming the first one (resest stack of counters).
Still, it gives perspectives: the ratio is in favour of melee, and still, the stackability is far more dangerous.

Maybe the wisest thing would be no counters at all (nor magic, nor melee), and a random chance to trigger the skill, with at least some frames between activations to allow players to recover even if they are unlucky.
The formula for the random activations could take into account the highest luck or a the average between all members?

[praetarius5018]

Maybe the wisest thing would be no counters at all (nor magic, nor melee), and a random chance to trigger the skill, with at least some frames between activations to allow players to recover even if they are unlucky.
The formula for the random activations could take into account the highest luck or a the average between all members?

You volunteer to program that? I abstain from that idea.

1. Make the small bosses (and enemies) do what the big bosses do -- use magic/tech every 10 sec or something (maybe you can make it so that [char Luck vs target Level] is a factor in determining the magic attack frequency).  Yes, that means Counters (melee or magic) are no longer used.  That'll resolve any combo issues.  This was actually my request, although I admit I worded my request very poorly.

I've no idea how to do that, so no.

2. Disable counters for magic (this will encourage players to use magic/tech), but enable melee counter.  The melee counter rate should be ~3% (as recent experiment indicated, ~7% is too high).  Not sure how to apply Luck stat here though.  And yes, this may result in the bosses still using "skill combo" which may result in total party kill, but the rate of that happening will be significantly less.  Of course, if it still happens, then you gotta reset and start over, but the idea is to reduce the chance.  And again, it'll encourage players to use magic and Lv2/3 techs more frequently, which is good.

Denied, goes too far away from vanilla.

Also, I don't know where you got "51".  If your previous formula for boss is (25+target level/2), then DSK's Lv being 44, the number must be out of 47.  A typo?

No idea, I used the DSK from the debug room and looked what the rate was in the code; maybe it is a higher level or something.

3. This may be a bit confusing.  I'll try to articulate as best as I can.

Using 20 Luck vs Darkshine Knight example, the counter rate being out of 51 made the players (err, me) be very afraid of using skills.  I mean, even at 20 Luck (that's the highest of all char/class at Lv44), the magic counter rate is still whooping 61%?  I think that's too much. 

(...)

Therefore, I think the number should be out of (5+target level/2) for regular enemies or (10+target level/2) for bosses, and melee counter should be 1/16 instead of 1/8.  Hawk LD's max Luck (highest Luck char/class) at Lv44 is 20.  So against Lv44 enemies, regular enemies have 7/27 (26%) chance to magic counter and 1.6% of melee counter (this is significantly more reasonable, because most dangerous regular enemies have HP threshold techs), and bosses have 12/32 (37.5%) chance to magic counter and 2.3% of melee counter.  And that's the best case scenario, since Hawk has the highest Luck.  Most characters will have ~16 Luck (if it's raised), which results in higher counter rate.

Considering that spells deal 1.5-4x damage at best (assuming some form of buffs because that should be our baseline and not very suboptimal play) 1/16th the rate seems very wrong.

[hmsong]

Denied, goes too far away from vanilla.

Oh.  That's a shame.  I thought #2 was the most realistic and optimal outcome.  I don't think it's very far from vanilla (since you're just transferring vanilla magic counter to melee counter, at a reduced rate), but that's just my humble opinion.

No idea, I used the DSK from the debug room and looked what the rate was in the code; maybe it is a higher level or something.

The DSK from the debug room is map 983, and he's at Lv44 too.  Just a suggestion, but perhaps you should recheck your magic counter formula, because something may be up.  That may explain why the counter rate is so high (higher than you intended).

Considering that spells deal 1.5-4x damage at best (assuming some form of buffs because that should be our baseline and not very suboptimal play) 1/16th the rate seems very wrong.

I know it seems that way, but 1/8th has very high chance of melee counters stacking, which is pretty much a death sentence for your whole party.  I might sort of get by for the current melee counter rate (which is rather high imho), but the counters stacking on top of another and then everything coming at once is just... too much.  Nothing I can do, since I can't even access the menu to use any items to heal.  And always assuming that the characters are buffed and enemies are debuffed is... not right.  That just makes the game unnecessarily difficult, unless you're specifically fighting the secret boss or the final boss (those should always be hard).

Even if you're not inclined to reduce the 1/8th to 1/16th, reducing the magic counter chance may reduce the melee counter chance, since the melee counter chance depends on the magic counter chance (unless I'm wrong about that).  I don't know how much it'll be reduced though.

Obviously, it's up to you.  But I feel that making a hack that gives satisfaction to as many people as possible is the best way to go (to certain extent).  Making the game so difficult that it becomes frustrating seems... a bit counterproductive.  Don't get me wrong though.  I love your hack, and there's definitely more positives from it.  I'm sure most people here feel the same way.  But I feel that it could be improved further by overcoming certain flaws (assuming those are flaws in your eyes).  Of course, if you have betters ways to overcome the flaws, then I'm all for that too.

[praetarius5018]

The DSK from the debug room is map 983, and he's at Lv44 too.  Just a suggestion, but perhaps you should recheck your magic counter formula, because something may be up.  That may explain why the counter rate is so high (higher than you intended).

Does an active cheat count that gave him Lv60?

And always assuming that the characters are buffed and enemies are debuffed is... not right.

I'm of the opposite opinion; (de)buffs are there to be used, so at least for boss fights that MUST be taken into consideration.

Of course, if you have betters ways to overcome the flaws, then I'm all for that too.

Ok, so if 7% is too much for how about scaling it compared to the damage dealt?
Yes this does make it even worse for melee, I'm AGAINST still playing favorites with melee as it currently it.

[Messianic]

How about when Bill/Ben/Luger land 4 attacks they have a 25% chance to use a lv 1 tech or for the ninjas, shurikens. 3 hits later a 50/50 chance to use a lv 2 tech for Lugar or hits is for the ninjas, and a 50% chance to wait for 2 more hits to use a lv 3 tech. This way they imitate the party with building up the tech meter.

[hmsong]

Does an active cheat count that gave him Lv60?

Oh.  That's a different story.

I'm of the opposite opinion; (de)buffs are there to be used, so at least for boss fights that MUST be taken into consideration.

I guess you're right, for Lugar and the later bosses, but not before Lugar -- you don't even have access to Heal Light before that, unless you specifically have Carlie.  Or level grind.

Ok, so if 7% is too much for how about scaling it compared to the damage dealt?
Yes this does make it even worse for melee, I'm AGAINST still playing favorites with melee as it currently it.

I'm actually all for melee counters.  I didn't think about it, but when you created it, I thought it was a really great idea, hence why I suggested #2 method (melee counters, and no magic counters -- very much encourages magic/Lv2+ techs).  You can choose to not use magic, but you can't choose to not use melee (thank you, dumbass AIs).  The problem was the high frequency of melee counters, which resulted in counter combos.  And that resulted in a HUGE difficulty spike, which I don't think is a good idea, at least to such magnitude.

If you're gonna use scales to the damage dealt, then I guess it really depends on how much damage has been dealt (1/7th of Max HP sounds good, to avoid 25% and 50% HP threshold comboing).  If the "damage dealt" threshold is small, then it'll pretty much result in counters happening very frequently, which means counters will stack on top of another counter, which brings the problem right back.  As I and some others pointed out earlier, the biggest issue is the stacking combo counter.  I mean, DSK desecrated my corpses after total party kill with his three MT techs combo.  I can see that happening with the first Machine Golems and first Bill/Ben too, when you don't have much resource due to money still being an issue.

[praetarius5018]

Tbh, it should be a "flat" amount and not based on the actual damage dealt; if we went with the later it would be very hard to avoid a tripple combo of tripping the 3/7th, 50% and 4/7th (6428, 7500, 8571 for a 15k HP boss which is roughly the max before the two last boss fights) reactions in short order while you use (de)buffs (at least 800 from Angela + 2x 300 if Kevin uses a Lv1 tech, a bit of flag and another 1-2 swings from Kevin).

[hmsong]

Tbh, it should be a "flat" amount and not based on the actual damage dealt; if we went with the later it would be very hard to avoid a tripple combo of tripping the 3/7th, 50% and 4/7th (6428, 7500, 8571 for a 15k HP boss which is roughly the max before the two last boss fights) reactions in short order while you use (de)buffs (at least 800 from Angela + 2x 300 if Kevin uses a Lv1 tech, a bit of flag and another 1-2 swings from Kevin).

Not sure what you mean by "flat" amount, but you're definitely right about triple combo if it's 3/7th, 50%, 4/7th.  And there's probably more ways to get comboed (aka get killed violently).  Dang it, I have no idea how to overcome that.  But it seems you have some sort of idea.

[praetarius5018]

ok not "flat" but "fixed".
like spells and L2/3 techs add 40 x LUCK_ADJUST to aggro
and regular attacks and L1 techs add 15 x LUCK_ADJUST
and you trigger a counter when the total reaches 150-255 depending on enemy; maybe even have enemies lose some aggro points when they deal damage, dunno if that goes too far by now...

[Zimgief]

From a gameplay perspective, this equates to resetting the stack of counters, as it avoids cbeing comboed. It sounds great! 

[hmsong]

ok not "flat" but "fixed".
like spells and L2/3 techs add 40 x LUCK_ADJUST to aggro
and regular attacks and L1 techs add 15 x LUCK_ADJUST
and you trigger a counter when the total reaches 150-255 depending on enemy; maybe even have enemies lose some aggro points when they deal damage, dunno if that goes too far by now...

Oh, so you're considering on using aggro meter of some kind?  Great!  Not sure what's a good number for aggro, but you have more exp with that, so I'll leave that to you.  If you're not using aggro meter, then I don't see any other solution other than to lower the counter rate (the problem being the counter combo).

[praetarius5018]

Oh, so you're considering on using aggro meter of some kind?  Great!  Not sure what's a good number for aggro, but you have more exp with that, so I'll leave that to you.

Not really; the "exp" I have with such a system lives in an environment where regular attacks deal very low damage and there's a player skill based way to reset the meter.

[hmsong]

Not really; the "exp" I have with such a system lives in an environment where regular attacks deal very low damage and there's a player skill based way to reset the meter.

Oh.  Guess I misunderstood you.  Damn.  So any thoughts on how to overcome the flaws of counter combos?  Or maybe you explained, but I didn't understand well.

[praetarius5018]

Oh.  Guess I misunderstood you.  Damn.  So any thoughts on how to overcome the flaws of counter combos?  Or maybe you explained, but I didn't understand well.

I'll try to make an aggro meter system, mostly need to figure out what mentioned LUCK_ADJUST should be and whether or not there should be a aggro decay mechanic of sorts.

[soul_knight]

@praetarius5018

Hey.  Thank you so much for your work.

Is it possible for you to make something, so that only Black Rabite drops his treasure 100% of the time?  I have a feeling that BR was supposed to drop his treasure 100% of the time, but the devs screwed something up somewhere.  You can also make only bosses drop the chests 100%, but that only affects Machine Golem (2nd time) and BR, so the result is the same, more or less.

[praetarius5018]

Not really; that logic is in the compressed section.
Changing anything there beyond a constant value goes way beyond the effort I'm willing to put into SD3 these days.

Making the proposed change to counterlogic would maybe take an hour; changing that chest logic? Can say goodbye to a whole weekend.

[soul_knight]

Not really; that logic is in the compressed section.
Changing anything there beyond a constant value goes way beyond the effort I'm willing to put into SD3 these days.

Making the proposed change to counterlogic would maybe take an hour; changing that chest logic? Can say goodbye to a whole weekend.

Ah.  Oh well.  Thanks anyways.