Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion

[Red Soul]

I want you to use bugfix 1.8, Balance (do not use No Skill Counter), and Monsters.  Optional: Black Rabite, Items, Starting Stats, and Less Grinding.

Do not use my Evade Changes, as I want to see how v1.8's default Eva works -- is it too little?  Is it too much?

Please save often (and save state), as both soul_knight and I have come across game freezing.

Once again, thanks.

I think I will use as few patches as possible, in the off-chance there is a bad interaction somewhere.

Edit: You know, repatching from scratch is all is a bit of a pain. Maybe we should look into a special patch integration system like Secret of Mana Turbo has?

Edit 2: It's insanely hard to get accurate damage figures because the AI players get in the way.
I probably won't have good numbers until I get the Chibikko Hammer.

[soul_knight]

When exactly did it freeze?
During the spell animation? Directly after? Or at a "random" point in battle?

Right before the spell animation starts.  And as hmsong said, when too many casts are active, it seems to freeze.  They may be the same bug.  Try it.  Have all 3 chars cast spells during the battle, and keep casting spells.  Eventually, it'll freeze while the menu is being open.

[travel27]

Some games are perfect as is, this would be one of them.  Excellent game that surpasses secret of mana and cleans up some of that game's flaws, which was itself a great game.

[hmsong]

I think I will use as few patches as possible, in the off-chance there is a bad interaction somewhere.

Edit: You know, repatching from scratch is all is a bit of a pain. Maybe we should look into a special patch integration system like Secret of Mana Turbo has?

Edit 2: It's insanely hard to get accurate damage figures because the AI players get in the way.
I probably won't have good numbers until I get the Chibikko Hammer.

Thanks.  I don't need precise number (although it would be great -- please watch out for element day bonus).  I just want a feeling on how viable Angela's spells are in the beginning.  And how powerful she is at the end.  And how often she gets countered if she levels up her Luck.  And numerous other things.  Thanks.

Yeah, I wish I can do a compilation like SoM Turbo, but I have absolutely no idea how to do that.

Some games are perfect as is, this would be one of them.  Excellent game that surpasses secret of mana and cleans up some of that game's flaws, which was itself a great game.

I think this game is far from being perfect.  That's why I created numerous hacks -- to mitigate some of the flaws of the game in my image.  Of course, my hacks are full of flaws too.  But hopefully, it's better than vanilla.

[Red Soul]

Thanks.  I don't need precise number (although it would be great -- please watch out for element day bonus).  I just want a feeling on how viable Angela's spells are in the beginning.  And how powerful she is at the end.  And how often she gets countered if she levels up her Luck.  And numerous other things.  Thanks.

Yeah, I wish I can do a compilation like SoM Turbo, but I have absolutely no idea how to do that.

I'm also compiling this data for Praetarius, perhaps he can find some use for it.

As for compiling patches, I guess contacting the author(s) of SoM Turbo about the .zps format they use could be a good start if there's interest.

Edit: Did something change in the shop patch and Dreamsee Herb is no longer sold? because it's a pretty convenient way to test werewolf damage.

[hmsong]

I'm also compiling this data for Praetarius, perhaps he can find some use for it.

As for compiling patches, I guess contacting the author(s) of SoM Turbo about the .zps format they use could be a good start if there's interest.

Edit: Did something change in the shop patch and Dreamsee Herb is no longer sold? because it's a pretty convenient way to test werewolf damage.

I already talked to Queue a long time ago, and it's a lot more complicated than I thought to create a ZPS for a new game.  There's a lot of prerequisite knowledge that needs to be applied, and I don't have them.  It's a different story if someone creates a ZPS for SD3, in which case I can modify, add, delete, etc.  But as of now, no such thing exists.

As for how the shops work, there are two item shops.  The "first" shop is active from the beginning of the game until you clear the Corbokkle Forest, and after that, all item shops change their contents to their "second" shop.  I have absolutely no idea how that works, nor why Corbokkle.  But it is what it is.  The only think I could was change the contents of the shops.  The first shop does not have Dreamsee Herb -- I wanted people to explore the Item Seed.  The second shop has all the items from Item Seed and Mysterious Seed.

[Red Soul]

I already talked to Queue a long time ago, and it's a lot more complicated than I thought to create a ZPS for a new game.  There's a lot of prerequisite knowledge that needs to be applied, and I don't have them.  It's a different story if someone creates a ZPS for SD3, in which case I can modify, add, delete, etc.  But as of now, no such thing exists.

As for how the shops work, there are two item shops.  The "first" shop is active from the beginning of the game until you clear the Corbokkle Forest, and after that, all item shops change their contents to their "second" shop.  I have absolutely no idea how that works, nor why Corbokkle.  But it is what it is.  The only think I could was change the contents of the shops.  The first shop does not have Dreamsee Herb -- I wanted people to explore the Item Seed.  The second shop has all the items from Item Seed and Mysterious Seed.

I see, so it's no a simple thing to do. Thanks for the shop info. I wasn't sure what the thresholds were for the inventory to change. I guess to ease data collection I might modify my save game to contain Dreamsee Herbs and the hammer from the get go.

[soul_knight]

@praetarius5018

I don't think Luck Denies Counter is working.  Specifically, it's working as if Luck Denies Counter is No Skill Counter.  I haven't seen any bosses countering Angela's spells.  Specifically, I haven't seen Black Rabite countering any spells (other bosses are a bit hard to tell).  I mean, I leveled up her Luck, but there ought to be some chance that the bosses will counter, right?  I spammed Evil Gate on Black Rabite (after using the anti magic item), but not once did Black Rabite counter.



@hmsong

I'll answer about max mp for Angela.  The answer is yes and no.  For Angela DD, the max mp she can reach (at PIE 18) is 96.  She stops getting max mp after Lv46 or so.  But she starts gaining max mp starting Lv55 or so.  So if you level her up to Lv60 or something, she'll max out her max mp, even as Angela DD.  I'm guessing literally every character can max out their hp and mp, assuming they level up enough.  Yeah... let's see if anyone ever tries that (without the par code or something).  In any case, I never had mp issue anymore than I had with vanilla.

[hmsong]

@soul_knight

Thanks for the info.  Yeah, it was expected that DD is gonna max out at 96.  Praetarius5018 already said that her base maxes out at 78 (so 78 + 18 PIE = 96).  I guess that means none of her classes will get 99 MP, even in her LD, which has 20 PIE (which results in 98 MP).  That's no problem though -- Kevin doesn't max out his HP ~Lv50, so why should Angela max out her MP around the same level?  At least the game gives the players the option of maxing out the HP and MP (lots of grinding).  I usually level up until Lv56, because that's when you can max out every stat for most characters (some max out before that level), so for the most part, Angela will max out her MP.



@praetarius5018

Hey, for your next update, maybe you can correct Angela's Luck stat error.  I mean, I think that's an error -- she's supposed to have decent Luck stat.  She started with decent Luck (3rd highest), but for whatever reason, her class ups didn't get the same Luck update.  Here's the code, relative to vanilla and other characters (I'm sure you can do this yourself, but I'll save you the time, if you decide to apply this).

Code Select Expand


@OFF $D14468 ' Angela L (+luck correction)
RAW 0A 0A 0A 0E 0D 0C
RAW 0A 0A 0A 0E 0D 0C
RAW 0A 0A 0A 0E 0D 0C
RAW 0B 0B 0B 0F 0E 0D
RAW 0B 0B 0B 0F 0E 0D
RAW 0B 0B 0B 0F 0E 0D
RAW 0C 0C 0C 10 0F 0E
RAW 0C 0C 0C 10 0F 0E
RAW 0C 0C 0C 10 0F 0E
RAW 0D 0D 0D 11 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0D 11 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0D 11 10 0F
RAW 0E 0E 0E 11 11 10
RAW 0E 0E 0E 11 11 10
RAW 0E 0E 0E 11 11 10
RAW 0E 0E 0E 11 11 10

@OFF $D144E0 ' Angela D (+luck correction)
RAW 0A 0A 0A 0E 0D 0C
RAW 0A 0A 0A 0E 0D 0C
RAW 0A 0A 0A 0E 0D 0C
RAW 0B 0B 0B 0F 0E 0D
RAW 0B 0B 0B 0F 0E 0D
RAW 0B 0B 0B 0F 0E 0D
RAW 0C 0C 0C 10 0F 0E
RAW 0C 0C 0C 10 0F 0E
RAW 0C 0C 0C 10 0F 0E
RAW 0D 0D 0D 11 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0D 11 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0D 11 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0E 12 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0E 12 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0E 12 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0E 12 10 0F

@OFF $D157B8 ' Angela LL (+luck correction)
RAW 0E 0E 0E 11 11 10
RAW 0F 0F 0F 12 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 0F 12 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 0F 12 12 11
RAW 10 10 10 13 13 12
RAW 10 10 10 13 13 12
RAW 10 10 10 13 13 12
RAW 11 11 11 14 13 12
RAW 11 11 11 14 13 12
RAW 11 11 11 14 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12

@OFF $D1591A ' Angela LD (+luck correction)
RAW 0E 0E 0E 11 11 10
RAW 0F 0F 0F 12 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 0F 12 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 0F 12 12 11
RAW 10 10 10 13 13 12
RAW 10 10 10 13 13 12
RAW 10 10 10 13 13 12
RAW 10 10 11 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 11 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 11 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13

@OFF $D15A7C ' Angela DL (+luck correction)
RAW 0D 0D 0E 12 10 0F
RAW 0E 0E 0F 13 11 10
RAW 0E 0E 0F 13 11 10
RAW 0E 0E 0F 13 11 10
RAW 0F 0F 10 14 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 10 14 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 10 14 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 11 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 11 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 11 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12

@OFF $D15BDE ' Angela DD (+luck correction)
RAW 0D 0D 0E 12 10 0F
RAW 0E 0E 0F 13 11 10
RAW 0E 0E 0F 13 11 10
RAW 0E 0E 0F 13 11 10
RAW 0F 0F 10 14 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 10 14 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 10 14 12 11
RAW 10 10 11 15 12 11
RAW 10 10 11 15 12 11
RAW 10 10 11 15 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11

And this will still make my balance patch compatible, since my Balance Stat simply overwrites this.

[praetarius5018]

I don't think Luck Denies Counter is working.  Specifically, it's working as if Luck Denies Counter is No Skill Counter.  I haven't seen any bosses countering Angela's spells.  Specifically, I haven't seen Black Rabite countering any spells (other bosses are a bit hard to tell).  I mean, I leveled up her Luck, but there ought to be some chance that the bosses will counter, right?  I spammed Evil Gate on Black Rabite (after using the anti magic item), but not once did Black Rabite counter.

Unless I mixed up directions (< vs >) he should have like 60% to get his counteraction.
Are you 100% certain you don't also have hmsong's no skill counter on?

So if you level her up to Lv60 or something, she'll max out her max mp, even as Angela DD.  I'm guessing literally every character can max out their hp and mp, assuming they level up enough.  Yeah... let's see if anyone ever tries that (without the par code or something).

Can't see anyone ever doing that; at about Lv55-60 every stat should be max, so you only gain a handful of HP/MP. And even reaching 50 is a grind and a half.
Neither worth it nor are there any decent grind spots.
In SoM it was at least somewhat worth it because of low drop chance for endgame gear and extra orbs.

Thanks for the info.  Yeah, it was expected that DD is gonna max out at 96.  Praetarius5018 already said that her base maxes out at 78 (so 78 + 18 PIE = 96).  I guess that means none of her classes will get 99 MP, even in her LD, which has 20 PIE (which results in 98 MP).

I feel like the vanilla base MP growth is even a bit too much; +1 MP per stat is kinda meaningless when you have 70 MP base and 108x 20mp walnuts total; but that would be deep in rebalancing territory.

Hey, for your next update, maybe you can correct Angela's Luck stat error.  I mean, I think that's an error -- she's supposed to have decent Luck stat.  She started with decent Luck (3rd highest), but for whatever reason, her class ups didn't get the same Luck update.  Here's the code, relative to vanilla and other characters (I'm sure you can do this yourself, but I'll save you the time, if you decide to apply this).

I'm not sure I understand what exactly the error is; care to elaborate?

[hmsong]

I'm not sure I understand what exactly the error is; care to elaborate?

I'm saying that I think Angela was supposed to have higher Luck in her class changes.  For example, vanilla Duran starts the game with 4 AGL.  Eventually, he ends up with 17~19 AGL (depending on which class).  The same with all characters of all classes.

Code Select Expand

Start Class 1 Class 2 stat
---- ---- ----
2 13~14 15~17
3 14~15 16~18
4 15~16 17~19
5 16~17 18~20
6 17~18 20~22

All characters of all classes follow the exact same pattern, except Angela's Luck (well, Duran's STR starts with 6, and ends with 21~22, but that's an acceptable exception).  Angela starts with 4 Luck, and therefore she should end up with 17~19 Luck, just like all other stats of all characters for all classes (following the table above).  The problem is, she doesn't end up with 17~19 Luck -- she ends up with 15~17 Luck.  Therefore, I think Angela's Luck stat is an error.  And I'm sure Angela wasn't supposed to start the game with 2 Luck.

[soul_knight]

Unless I mixed up directions (< vs >) he should have like 60% to get his counteraction.
Are you 100% certain you don't also have hmsong's no skill counter on?

Yes.  Just for test, I made a rom with only v1.8 and Black Rabite.  And then attacked BR with loads of spells.  No counter at all.  I did use the previous run save, but I'm guessing that won't affect anything in regards to counter frequency rate.  So unless hmsong's BR patch disabled counters or something, I think something is going on that disables counters.  While I prefer the counters to be rare (assuming Luck is relatively decent), I don't want there to be no counter whatsoever.

Can anyone else confirm?  Test it against Lugar or Black Rabite, as those two can counter, but neither use their skills unless their HP is low.

[praetarius5018]

I'm saying that I think Angela was supposed to have higher Luck in her class changes.  For example, vanilla Duran starts the game with 4 AGL.  Eventually, he ends up with 17~19 AGL (depending on which class).

I don't have a strong opinion on this, so could do that; what do other people think about it?

Yes.  Just for test, I made a rom with only v1.8 and Black Rabite.  And then attacked BR with loads of spells.  No counter at all.

Ok, will check next time I have time for SD3.

[Messianic]

I'm fine with Angela having a little higher Luck, as long as it doesn't make her have higher total stats than everyone else.

[hmsong]

I'm fine with Angela having a little higher Luck, as long as it doesn't make her have higher total stats than everyone else.

She used to have the lowest total stats (tied with Kevin).  With the Luck update, she has the 2nd lowest total stat (tied with Duran).

[Zimgief]

I'm fine with it too!

[Red Soul]

Yeah, being she is a mage in the purest sense, some of her STR or VIT could be sacrificed for more luck, and she'd be all the better for it, given luck's important role in survivability now.

[soul_knight]

When you apply stat up magic, the one being applied sometimes have that green aura.  But sometimes, it doesn't.  And I think I also saw the yellow aura before at some point.  Does anyone know what those aura color means?  Also, if you apply stat up, and then someone applies stat down, then do you go back to being neutral (neither stat up or down), or do you just have stat down?

[hmsong]

First of all, I can confirm that v1.8 made the enemies (at least Black Rabite) not counter any skills.  I just tried it.  I spammed the attack skills, and BR didnt' counter at all.

This might be a dangerous thought, but is there a way to make the "countering enemies/bosses" (such as Bill/Ben, Lugar, and Black Rabite) use their counter skills randomly (instead of those skills being activated by being attacked by magic), just like the "non-countering enemies/bosses"? (such as Full Metal Hagger, Jewel Eater, and Tsenker)  Of course, all bosses should keep their unique HP threshold moves (such as Knights starting the fight with a Saber magic, and Lugar/Gildervine transforming, and Black Rabite using the spell combo and Ancient).  That way, the players will have to be always vigilant, instead of just using melee to not activate the counters (personally, I think Luck Denies Counter still discourages players to use skills, simply because there's an option to not activate the counter skills at all -- by just using the boring melee).  While I was testing, I fought against Black Rabite, and I specifically didn't use any skills (I only had v1.8 enabled), and honestly, BR was extremely easy.  But if BR used his counter skills randomly (like Supersonic, or Great Demon summon), then I would constantly have to be vigilant (esp my healers), which would make the fights more difficult and interesting.  Actually, some players might still die, because player damaged BR enough to activate the spell combo, while BR was activating a random powerful skill.  But that's half the fun.  Being vigilant while fighting.

Just a thought.

Also, I think M.Def buff is a bit too much.  Based on the number, M.Def Up should only raise the M.Def by 20%.  Duran had M.Def of 138, and with the buff, he got 165.  So he should only reduce the damage by ~27 points, right?  But when I got attacked by BR's Dark Force, the damage got almost halved (216 reduced to 114 points).  But that doesn't seem to be the case for M.Def Down (Angela did 367 damage with Evil Gate against BR, and the same spell did 467 when BR had M.Def down).  That seemed a bit weird.  Can you check that out, and if possible, make M.Def buff a bit less powerful?

When you apply stat up magic, the one being applied sometimes have that green aura.  But sometimes, it doesn't.  And I think I also saw the yellow aura before at some point.  Does anyone know what those aura color means?  Also, if you apply stat up, and then someone applies stat down, then do you go back to being neutral (neither stat up or down), or do you just have stat down?

I think the green aura is when you apply the same buff as before (and green aura indicates that whatever buff you did, you're not getting anymore buff).  I'm guessing yellow aura is the same thing, except for debuff.  And as for Stat up and down after another, I think it cancels each other out, making it neutral.  At least, that was true for HP Up/Down.  I'm guessing it's the same for other stat up/down.  So if an enemy did Power Down on you, and you want to increase your melee attack (relative to the normal state), then you need to apply Power Up twice.

[Zimgief]

First of all, I can confirm that v1.8 made the enemies (at least Black Rabite) not counter any skills.  I just tried it.  I spammed the attack skills, and BR didnt' counter at all.

This might be a dangerous thought, but is there a way to make the "countering enemies/bosses" (such as Bill/Ben, Lugar, and Black Rabite) use their counter skills randomly (instead of those skills being activated by being attacked by magic), just like the "non-countering enemies/bosses"? (such as Full Metal Hagger, Jewel Eater, and Tsenker)  Of course, all bosses should keep their unique HP threshold moves (such as Knights starting the fight with a Saber magic, and Lugar/Gildervine transforming, and Black Rabite using the spell combo and Ancient).  That way, the players will have to be always vigilant, instead of just using melee to not activate the counters (personally, I think Luck Denies Counter still discourages players to use skills, simply because there's an option to not activate the counter skills at all -- by just using the boring melee).  While I was testing, I fought against Black Rabite, and I specifically didn't use any skills (I only had v1.8 enabled), and honestly, BR was extremely easy.  But if BR used his counter skills randomly (like Supersonic, or Great Demon summon), then I would constantly have to be vigilant (esp my healers), which would make the fights more difficult and interesting.  Actually, some players might still die, because player damaged BR enough to activate the spell combo, while BR was activating a random powerful skill.  But that's half the fun.  Being vigilant while fighting.

Just a thought.

Interesting. It would definitely make skills stronger, without any feelbad using them. But it lowers one of luck's new strength. Overall, I think it would make the game better. Counters is a weak mechanic to begin with, but I never thought of getting rid of it. If praetarius5018 doesn't do it (if it strays too much from the original game design) I would appreciate that you make a patch for it.