Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion

[praetarius5018]

To me it looks like it displays the same weakness twice... maybe bandaid solution because they couldn't make a textbox variant with just one entry?

[hmsong]

@praetarius5018

It seems that the new bugfix patch doesn't give the bonus EXP to the enemies with 00 Exp flag (ex: Armor Knight, Silver Knight, Dark Lord, Ninja Master, Wizard, Evil Sword, Black Fang, etc).  Changing that value to 80 fixes the problem, as 80 and 00 give the same EXP.

Okay.  Just submitted an updated version of Less Grinding, to fix the compatibility issues.  People using v1.8 may want to use that.

[praetarius5018]

@praetarius5018

It seems that the new bugfix patch doesn't give the bonus EXP to the enemies with 00 Exp flag (ex: Armor Knight, Silver Knight, Dark Lord, Ninja Master, Wizard, Evil Sword, Black Fang, etc).  Changing that value to 80 fixes the problem, as 80 and 00 give the same EXP.

What enemy did you experience that against?

[hmsong]

What enemy did you experience that against?

Armor Knight, from Corridors of Wind.  I was at Lv9, and it still dropped 16 EXP, while all other monsters dropped more than usual.  This was confirmed again in the Rolante Castle.  All other monsters got EXP boost, while Armor Knight and Evil Sword did not.

[soul_knight]

I'm not sure what's causing this (as it seems so random), but sometimes, when I cast some spells with Angela (it happened with both Air Blast and Evil Gate in the desert), the game freezes.  The game also froze when an enemy (Dark Priest in the desert) tried to cast some kind of attack spell.  Maybe it happened when I tried to open the menu when the spell was about to be cast, and the animation is about to start?  It happens so randomly, that I can't pinpoint how it's done.  Does anyone else notice?  Maybe it happens if you play the game for an extend time?  Not sure.

Oh, I'm using v1.8, Balance patch, Black Rabite patch, Item patch, Less Grinding patch, and Evade patch, patched in that order.

[praetarius5018]

Armor Knight, from Corridors of Wind.  I was at Lv9, and it still dropped 16 EXP, while all other monsters dropped more than usual.  This was confirmed again in the Rolante Castle.  All other monsters got EXP boost, while Armor Knight and Evil Sword did not.

sigh noted

Maybe it happens if you play the game for an extend time?  Not sure.

I could take the easy way out and just blame it on this; the game has some kind of memory leak and spell animations amplify that effect, that's at least what we've observered over the years. I recall reading an article some years back that hypothesized we didn't get SD3 overseas because exactly that behaviour was observed on console.
Well, its not like I've accidently drawn the menu sprites on the game screen by playing around with snowman status... this game has issues.

Just saving ingame (NOT save states!!), resetting back to the main menu and then loading again resets the time until issues crop up.
If you resume playing via loading savestates it would be like you never left, so that "doomsday clock" is still at the exact same spot as it was before.


tl;dr: when did it start coming up?
shortly after loading from ingame menu? or after a couple hours without reloading?

[soul_knight]

tl;dr: when did it start coming up?
shortly after loading from ingame menu? or after a couple hours without reloading?

I loaded from the last save point of Seashore Cave.  I was Lv14.  I immediately cleared it, then I went to the Forcena, then went to the desert, and bought the equipments and proceeded to grind until Lv18 (I used Angela's Air Blast a lot, and grinding was very fast).  I went back to inn to recover MP from time to time, but I don't think I loaded from the inn.  Anyways, I then fought Bill and Ben (used Evil Gate frequently, as it was night), and that's when the game got stuck.  I think it was only about an hour or two, from loading to the point of getting stuck.

Edit: It seems that there might be some problem, not with v1.8, but with hmsong's Evade patch.



@hmsong

Something is wrong with your Evade patch.  Whatever it's doing, it's causing a problem in Mintos.  I can't get into the Moonlight Forest from Mintos, if I apply your Evade patch.

[praetarius5018]

used Evil Gate frequently, as it was night

day/night has no influence on light/dark damage.

[soul_knight]

day/night has no influence on light/dark damage.

Seriously?  Haha!  What the heck.  Man, dark damage spells just suck.  Well, I guess they suck in almost all games.  If you can make day/night affect the strength boost of light/dark spells, I would appreciate it.  That way, people will actually have reasons to use dark spells, as nights are common.  Sure, light spells will get powerful too, but at least it uses PIE for damage, meaning she will almost always do less damage than her INT based spells.

Speaking of light/dark spells, if the calculation is right, don't you think Heal Light will get a bit too powerful at the end of the game?  I get that Angela's spells need help at the end of the game (very wise decision, esp her MT spells), but Heal Light getting buffed may be a bit too much.  If Daytime gives Heal Light some buff, then that I can see, and even welcome it.  But Heal Light getting the same buff as Angela's spells is a bit too much imho.  Maybe make it so that M.Def affects Heal Light "damage"?  I don't know what's a good number, but yeah...

[hmsong]

@hmsong

Something is wrong with your Evade patch.  Whatever it's doing, it's causing a problem in Mintos.  I can't get into the Moonlight Forest from Mintos, if I apply your Evade patch.

Oh crap.  You're right.  Thanks for letting me know.  Nice job finding out that it was Evade patch that was the issue.  I shall submit an update with the fix.

Having said that, it probably doesn't have anything to do with freezing the game.  The problem with my Evade patch was that it screwed up something with Werewolf enemy, and the first part of Moonlight Forest had werewolf enemy which screwed things up.

[praetarius5018]

If you can make day/night affect the strength boost of light/dark spells, I would appreciate it.  That way, people will actually have reasons to use dark spells, as nights are common.  Sure, light spells will get powerful too, but at least it uses PIE for damage, meaning she will almost always do less damage than her INT based spells.

Imo there should NEVER be a day bonus for light/dark element based on day/night
1) Kevin is already "restricted" to night because of wolf bonus

2) getting the bonus 50% of the time to the OP element (a majority of endgame mobs are neutral or weak to light, other weaknesses rare) is nonsense if the average element only get theirs 1/7 of the time

3) about 25% of the bosses have a dark elemental attack, I'd guess 35% of regular enemies with any element at all have something with dark; this wouldn't make dark spells more useful to you, this would make the game harder.

[Red Soul]

I agree. Even the bonuses for the more common elements are of somewhat questionable, situational usefulness, IMO.

[soul_knight]

Imo there should NEVER be a day bonus for light/dark element based on day/night
1) Kevin is already "restricted" to night because of wolf bonus

2) getting the bonus 50% of the time to the OP element (a majority of endgame mobs are neutral or weak to light, other weaknesses rare) is nonsense if the average element only get theirs 1/7 of the time

3) about 25% of the bosses have a dark elemental attack, I'd guess 35% of regular enemies with any element at all have something with dark; this wouldn't make dark spells more useful to you, this would make the game harder.

I see.  It's just that both Wisp and Shade don't have any their "day", while all other elements get their day, and I feel sad for that.  But I agree with #2.  I don't mind #3 though.  As for #1, then there will be both pro and con for day/night, because of reason #3 -- at night, kevin gets werewolf bonus, but it also becomes dangerous, because enemies' dark spell damage will increase.

Then how about light/dark bonus can only happen during the Mana Holiday, day for light, and night for dark?  That way, the Wisp/Shade get their own "moment" in one of the days (half of all other elements).

[hmsong]

I agree. Even the bonuses for the more common elements are of somewhat questionable, situational usefulness, IMO.

I wouldn't want them gone though.  If the element bonus disappears, then there's literally no point of having different days in a week.

Then how about light/dark bonus can only happen during the Mana Holiday, day for light, and night for dark?  That way, the Wisp/Shade get their own "moment" in one of the days (half of all other elements).

That sounds good.  Mana Holiday doesn't give any bonus to any element (despite what many guides say), and it'd be cool to see that day having some purpose (other than free inn).  But I agree with praetarius5018 that having 50% of time being powered up in one element (esp holy) is ridiculous.

[praetarius5018]

If you had said "mana day should boost all elements" (incl. non-elemental? that one has no day either!!) I would have thought about it, but some weird day/night mana day-only split feels unintuitive.

[soul_knight]

If you had said "mana day should boost all elements" (incl. non-elemental? that one has no day either!!) I would have thought about it, but some weird day/night mana day-only split feels unintuitive.

Hmm.  I feel that non-element shouldn't get any boost, because those spells don't use elemental spirits.  And non-elements are special in a way that you don't ever have to worry about the attack being ineffective or something.  And it'd be kinda weird that things like Dart getting boost in a particular day of the week.

I just want Wisp and Shade to have their unique "moments in the week dedicated to them only", even if their moments are shorter than other elements.

I'm against the Mana Holiday boosting all elements.  That takes out the uniqueness of the elemental days.  I want the "boost" on specific day to be something that players discover -- it certainly made me appreciate those days, esp now that you made the days affect sabers too.

Also, I think I sort of get when the game freezes.  I think if you use attack spells for certain amount of times after loading the game, the game freezes.  I used Angela, and I was up against Mispolm (I loaded from the nearest save point), and the game froze during the battle, probably because I used the attack spells so many times.  In all the times the game froze, they were all attack spells.  To be fair though, I used attack spells far more frequently than other types of spells, given that my team was Duran, Angela, and Kevin.

[hmsong]

Also, I think I sort of get when the game freezes.  I think if you use attack spells for certain amount of times after loading the game, the game freezes.  I used Angela, and I was up against Mispolm (I loaded from the nearest save point), and the game froze during the battle, probably because I used the attack spells so many times.  In all the times the game froze, they were all attack spells.  To be fair though, I used attack spells far more frequently than other types of spells, given that my team was Duran, Angela, and Kevin.

I came across freezing things too in v1.8, and in my case, the game froze when I tried to open the menu while the spell was about to start (enemy or ally).  I don't know if it's the same one as yours, or a completely different freeze.  I thought I should mention it.

[Red Soul]

@HMSong:

I'm about ready for the next playthrough now, sorry for the late pingback.
Could you refresh my memory on your requirements? (party, your patches and so on).

Since I'll be using bugfix 1.8, I'll be taking detailed notes for Praetarius as well, as I progress.

[hmsong]

@HMSong:

I'm about ready for the next playthrough now, sorry for the late pingback.
Could you refresh my memory on your requirements? (party, your patches and so on).

Since I'll be using bugfix 1.8, I'll be taking detailed notes for Praetarius as well, as I progress.

Thanks.  I would like to see Kevin LL/LD -- I want to see how his Heal Light works (rather, how much it has been nerfed), now that Balance v2.7 and bugfix 1.8 has affected the cast time.  Will heal items no longer be obsolete?

And Angela DD.  1. How much weaker will she be in doing damage due to the new mechanic in the pre-Desert/Snowland? (you'll have to keep upgrading her weapon)  2. How much stronger will she be in doing damage post-Moonlight Forest?  3. How will her new MP level affect her?  4. At what level will she reach 99 MP, if at all?  5. How often will she be countered, esp against bosses, assuming her Luck is always raised? (so her 3 primary stats will be Int, Vit, and Luck)

And Hawk LL.  How much weaker is he?  Can you think of good strategy to use him in a good way?

I want you to use bugfix 1.8, Balance (do not use No Skill Counter), and Monsters.  Optional: Black Rabite, Items, Starting Stats, and Less Grinding.

Do not use my Evade Changes, as I want to see how v1.8's default Eva works -- is it too little?  Is it too much?

Please level up decently before proceeding to the next dungeon (please grind to at least the dungeon enemy level, before proceeding to the next dungeon), as I want data of players who didn't run through all the mobs, just to access the higher EXP dropping enemies -- probably for enemies from Rolante and on, as that's when you probably need to start grinding.  Is +25%, +50%, and +100% too much?  Can money still keep up (relative to vanilla), assuming you level grinded before proceeding to the next level?

Please save often (and save state), as both soul_knight and I have come across game freezing.

Once again, thanks.

[praetarius5018]

Also, I think I sort of get when the game freezes.  I think if you use attack spells for certain amount of times after loading the game, the game freezes.  I used Angela, and I was up against Mispolm (I loaded from the nearest save point), and the game froze during the battle, probably because I used the attack spells so many times.  In all the times the game froze, they were all attack spells.  To be fair though, I used attack spells far more frequently than other types of spells, given that my team was Duran, Angela, and Kevin.

When exactly did it freeze?
During the spell animation? Directly after? Or at a "random" point in battle?