Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion

[hmsong]

By the way, you refer to classes in branches in he readme. May I suggest you use the actual names? I say this because Kevin DL and DD were erroneously swapped around in the SNES version, and I'm not sure if your skill changes refer to Dervish or Death Hand.

The reason I didn't do that is because of 2 reasons:
1. If you only look at the SNES version, there's literally no indication that Death Hand belongs to DD class (nor Dervish belongs to DL class).   Therefore, it didn't make sense to think that Death Hand belongs to DD class.
2. The Balance patch can also be used by Trials of Mana, and that game uses different names for many classes, including Death Hand and Dervish (I think they're called Fatal Fist and Enlightened).

[Red Soul]

The reason I didn't do that is because of 2 reasons:

1. If you only look at the SNES version, there's literally no indication that Death Hand belongs to DD class (nor Dervish belongs to DL class).   Therefore, it didn't make sense to think that Death Hand belongs to DD class.

Sorry, but I disagree. The palete locations are exactly that indication. Inside the ROM's memory, the palettes are ordered by class and all follow the same order, the very last palette for Kevin is Death Hand, even though the class branching on the menu indicates otherwise.

The palettes are flipped and completely wrong for these two classes (and no other for any other character). What this results in is the palette for the status screen render and sprite to be horribly mismatched (I'm talking vanilla game here) and this doesn't happen to any other branch of any other class.

So, assuming they intended Dervish to be DD at some point, they certainly forgot to change things around (which I don't believe is the case, or the remake would also have made Dervish into DD, considering all the class branching is the same, except Kevin's final Dark ones; I can't see this as anything other than a correction.

Also the God Hand/Dervish pairing makes absolutely no sense at all as the extremes for Light and Darkness, IMO.

2. The Balance patch can also be used by Trials of Mana, and that game uses different names for many classes, including Death Hand and Dervish (I think they're called Fatal Fist and Enlightened).

Indeed, it's true the names change, but the branches themselves don't, so I had to ask what you consider as DL on your change list so I can choose a class for Kevin next time I play based on your changes.

So just to be sure, it's the Dervish that gets these?

Body Change, MT Moon Saber, Life Booster, Half Vanish.

I like these changes by the way, Dervish is my favorite Kevin class.

[hmsong]

So just to be sure, it's the Dervish that gets these?

Body Change, MT Moon Saber, Life Booster, Half Vanish.

I like these changes by the way, Dervish is my favorite Kevin class.

Yes, for my current patch, Dervish is indeed DD.  Anyways, you make a good point, and I certainly want my patches to be aligned to the bugfix patch, so for Kevin D classes specifically, I'll make sure to note that DL is Death Hand/Fatal Fist, and DD is Dervish/Enlightened.  That way, less people will be confused.

[Red Soul]

Yes, for my current patch, Dervish is indeed DD.  Anyways, you make a good point, and I certainly want my patches to be aligned to the bugfix patch, so for Kevin D classes specifically, I'll make sure to note that DL is Death Hand/Fatal Fist, and DD is Dervish/Enlightened.  That way, less people will be confused.

Thanks, and sorry for the text wall. Just sharing thoughts here, not trying to convince you or anything. I like your changes, by the way, though it's a pity completely new spells can't be made with proper names and such.

I now just beat Gildervine (Delver, Knight, Ninja) and Angela's melee is pretty paltry as you can imagine. Duran and Hawk are at about the same damage level, which is what I had observed early on, though Hawk will outdamage Duran when criting, which seems correct.

[hmsong]

Thanks, and sorry for the text wall. Just sharing thoughts here, not trying to convince you or anything. I like your changes, by the way, though it's a pity completely new spells can't be made with proper names and such.

I now just beat Gildervine (Delver, Knight, Ninja) and Angela's melee is pretty paltry as you can imagine. Duran and Hawk are at about the same damage level, which is what I had observed early on, though Hawk will outdamage Duran when criting, which seems correct.

No no.  I welcome all criticisms, as long as it's civil.  I just submitted updates for Class Balance (with your requests) and Item Shop (with soul_knight's request).  Check that out once it's approved.  Be sure to read the document, because there are two different effects, depending on the order of applying.

If Hawk and Duran do about the same normal damage, then that's a perfect balance.  That's exactly what I want.  Hawk may outclass Duran in crit, but Duran outclasses Hawk with Lv2/3 techs.

I'm working on another patch that uses Acc/Eva more, but that'll take some time.  I hope you try it out once I complete it.  That patch is only relevant if it's used with the bugfix patch though.

[Red Soul]

No no.  I welcome all criticisms, as long as it's civil.  I just submitted updates for Class Balance (with your requests) and Item Shop (with soul_knight's request).  Check that out once it's approved.  Be sure to read the document, because there are two different effects, depending on the order of applying.

If Hawk and Duran do about the same normal damage, then that's a perfect balance.  That's exactly what I want.  Hawk may outclass Duran in crit, but Duran outclasses Hawk with Lv2/3 techs.

I'm working on another patch that uses Acc/Eva more, but that'll take some time.  I hope you try it out once I complete it.  That patch is only relevant if it's used with the bugfix patch though.

I try to maintain the same posture. Also, it's an issue with the vanilla game (that the bugfix patch also rectified - that bugged me for years, you know?) and not caused by your modifications, so don't worry about that.

Yeah from what I could observe, Hawk is doing more or less the same Duran does, damage wise (split in two slashes). I thought the 1/4 was going to ruin Kevin and Hawk at first, but I dare say they are still incredibly good (though I still maintain Kevin should be a wee bit stronger than anyone else, being half beast man).

According to class lore, Kevin's dark branch relies on the power of the werewolf more than the light classes, so maybe Dervish and Death Hand should get their 15% power bonus reinstated for werewolf? just a thought mind you.

Oh I'm definitely using the bugfix all the time now. Currently my test run has the following, in this order:

Bugfix 1.7, Optional Insta-Cast (my personal preference here; I want to see if without casting delays Angela can compete with meleers. so far, she's been a real asset rather than a liability, but maybe with enemy counters toned down, insta-cast isn't needed to enjoy magic), Class Balance Bundle and Item Shop (Quarter).

[praetarius5018]

By the way on the description and readme of the bugfix you mention "fixed Kevin's Deathhand and Bashkar being mixed up in menu"  but it's actually Dervish and Death Hand being swapped around that you fixed, so you might want to correct the description on the RHDN entry and readme if you have the inclination to do so.

Also, it might be beneficial to modify the description to state that insta-cast is now independent and optional, so people don't dump bad reviews on your hard work just because they think it's included (the current description makes it sound that way).

Done. Thanks for pointing it out.

According to class lore, Kevin's dark branch relies on the power of the werewolf more than the light classes, so maybe Dervish and Death Hand should get their 15% power bonus reinstated for werewolf? just a thought mind you.

Since that is handled in the compressed section, no chance.
Even if that wasn't a restriction, remember that Death Hand was already Kevin's strongest class and now is even stronger with the fixed energy ball, so yet another buff there is out in my book.

my personal preference here; I want to see if without casting delays Angela can compete with meleers. so far, she's been a real asset rather than a liability, but maybe with enemy counters toned down, insta-cast isn't needed to enjoy magic

Here's where the issue starts: who do we compare her "dps" to?
Duran, Hawk or Kevin?
With insta-cast she'd probably be closer to Kevin, maybe even above him (which is fine with mp costs and counter reactions being a thing),
with fixed cast time she'd probably be a good bit below Duran.
With the bugged cast time she's bouncing between both extremes, so ironically this would be the more balanced option...

[Red Soul]

Since that is handled in the compressed section, no chance.
Even if that wasn't a restriction, remember that Death Hand was already Kevin's strongest class and now is even stronger with the fixed energy ball, so yet another buff there is out in my book.

True, there's energy ball. Well Death Hand is the "most evil" and darkest, as well strongest from the branch, I guess EB might as well account for the Death Wolf's incredible strength.

Here's where the issue starts: who do we compare her "dps" to?
Duran, Hawk or Kevin?
With insta-cast she'd probably be closer to Kevin, maybe even above him (which is fine with mp costs and counter reactions being a thing),
with fixed cast time she'd probably be a good bit below Duran.
With the bugged cast time she's bouncing between both extremes, so ironically this would be the more balanced option...

Well, you got me there. Your estimates seem on point based on my observations. I know it's not intended design, but insta-casting Angela is a serious powerhouse. I managed to pretty much lock Lugar down and he couldn't fire off more than two counters the whole fight (and Lugar is a pretty brutal fight for that point in the game).

By fixed cast time you mean if menu shuffling didn't run the magic counter down?
As for the cast bug, I guess it depends on how much the player is willing to cheat the system in regards to her casting.

If I had the means to fix it, I'd make her cast faster than anyone else by margin, since she's a dedicated caster. I suppose Carlie is too, and a half elf to boot, so maybe they both would cast faster? I guess.

[hmsong]

If I had the means to fix it, I'd make her cast faster than anyone else by margin, since she's a dedicated caster. I suppose Carlie is too, and a half elf to boot, so maybe they both would cast faster? I guess.

Both final Angela and Carlie have insta cast (or as close as to it), assuming the spell themselves have no cast time.  For example, let's take Heal Light (which has 01 cast time, which btw is the fastest).  Duran and Kevin in their final classes still take some time to cast Heal Light, but Angela and Carlie casts that immediately (I used PAR code to give Angela Heal Light).  In short, both of those characters have the fastest natural cast time.

praetarius5018 said that all characters get their cast time enhanced if they class up, so maybe both Angela and Carlie had faster cast time, even in their base classes, relative to other base class characters.

[praetarius5018]

praetarius5018 said that all characters get their cast time enhanced if they class up, so maybe both Angela and Carlie had faster cast time, even in their base classes, relative to other base class characters.

Duran&Kevin: 120/90/60
Hawk&Lise: 90/60/30
Angela&Charlie: 60/30/1
those values are added to the casttime for base/1st/2nd class
I think 30 is about 1 second

[hmsong]

Duran&Kevin: 120/90/60
Hawk&Lise: 90/60/30
Angela&Charlie: 60/30/1
those values are added to the casttime for base/1st/2nd class
I think 30 is about 1 second

Ahh.  That makes sense, although I think those numbers are frames/sec, meaning 60 is one second (I think the game runs at 60 frames/sec).  Based on empirical observation, final Kevin takes less than 2 seconds to cast Heal Light, although definitely more than 1 sec.  So my guess to the cast time is [initial pose time] + [character cast time] + [spell cast time].  That's why even for Carlie, her cast time for Heal Light isn't instant (it's about 1/4~1/2 sec, I think).

[Red Soul]

Ahh.  That makes sense, although I think those numbers are frames/sec, meaning 60 is one second (I think the game runs at 60 frames/sec).  Based on empirical observation, final Kevin takes less than 2 seconds to cast Heal Light, although definitely more than 1 sec.  So my guess to the cast time is [initial pose time] + [character cast time] + [spell cast time].  That's why even for Carlie, her cast time for Heal Light isn't instant (it's about 1/4~1/2 sec, I think).

So the shortest natural cast is Carlie's Heal Light? it would be interesting to know to have a baseline.

[hmsong]

So the shortest natural cast is Carlie's Heal Light? it would be interesting to know to have a baseline.

For vanilla, yes.  There are quite a lot of spells with 1 frame cast time in vanilla.  I upped the cast time for many of those spells (~30 frames), including Heal Light in Class Balance.  The only spells with insta casts in Class Balance are Pressure Point and Silver Dart.  Of course, I decreased the cast time for many other spells, but that's a different story.  But now that I know the specifics of "character cast time frame", I may have to readjust.

And that reminds me.  It seems Carlie and Angela really do have insta cast time.  I messed up my previous statement, because I was using my own Class Balance, and obviously, Heal Light had upped cast time.

[Messianic]

Probably more a question for praetorius;

I am wondering if it is possible to make a graded version of enemy skill countering instead of the all or nothing options that currently exist. Either something like 25-30% chance to counter for standard enemies and 50-60% chance for bosses, or if not, perhaps a flat 40-45% for everyone?

I find that no skill counter breaks the game balance to being too easy and the vanilla 100% gives casters a headache.

[hmsong]

Probably more a question for praetorius;

I am wondering if it is possible to make a graded version of enemy skill countering instead of the all or nothing options that currently exist. Either something like 25-30% chance to counter for standard enemies and 50-60% chance for bosses, or if not, perhaps a flat 40-45% for everyone?

I find that no skill counter breaks the game balance to being too easy and the vanilla 100% gives casters a headache.

His bugfix patch did that.  Just don't use No Skill Counter when you use Class Balance, and his bugfix makes it so that all enemies (normal and bosses) may not use their skills, depending on your Luck stat.  If you have higher Luck stat, the enemy has less chance of using the skills.  It's out of 30, and the highest Luck stat (Hawk has this) is 22, so there's still 1/3 of chance that the enemy will use skills.  Angela and Carlie also have high Luck stats, so that makes sense.

[Messianic]

Ah, so that is what the luck counter is about. Well now that I understand this it seems using no skill counter and keeping luck counter is the way to go for that.

[soul_knight]

I wish Luck counter math was something like, [[Enemy's Luck] - [Attacker's Luck] + 3 ] / 5.  That way, if low level characters fought equally low level enemies, the enemies will have at least 1/3 chance of using counter attack, and if high level characters fought equally high level enemies, then the enemies will also have at least 1/3 chance of using counter attack.  I don't know how it is currently, but based on the description, at the beginning of the game, enemies will have high chance to counter (because you have low luck), while at the end of the game, enemies will have low chance to counter.

[Red Soul]

For vanilla, yes.  There are quite a lot of spells with 1 frame cast time in vanilla.  I upped the cast time for many of those spells (~30 frames), including Heal Light in Class Balance.  The only spells with insta casts in Class Balance are Pressure Point and Silver Dart.  Of course, I decreased the cast time for many other spells, but that's a different story.  But now that I know the specifics of "character cast time frame", I may have to readjust.

And that reminds me.  It seems Carlie and Angela really do have insta cast time.  I messed up my previous statement, because I was using my own Class Balance, and obviously, Heal Light had upped cast time.

So if I understand correctly, it's easier to manipulate the cast times of spells rather than characters?
If so, how about delaying cast times based on some sort of ratio between cost and spell power?

[jeffythedragonslayer]

Hi there, does anyone know how to recreate the 3rd player freezing up bug in the 3 player romhack?  I want to test my 65816 assembly skills and give it a shot.

[lexluthermiester]

So if I understand correctly, it's easier to manipulate the cast times of spells rather than characters?
If so, how about delaying cast times based on some sort of ratio between cost and spell power?

Oh, please no. The spells take long enough to cast as it is, we don't need a delay.