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### Author Topic: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion  (Read 82828 times)

#### BLESSED

• Newbie
• Posts: 1
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2021, 04:20:38 am »
Does the v1.2 bugfix patch include the critical hit fix? Reading the patch notes it doesn't mention a fix for it. So, can I use useful energy ball along with v1.2 bugfix?

#### praetarius5018

• Full Member
• Posts: 172
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2021, 05:22:41 am »
"Atk*1.125 + Luck*1.5"?  Wouldn't that just result in even bigger damage output?  I know what you intend is, "(Atk*1.125) + (Luck*1.5)", as that's how real math works when using multiplication, but because of how old games work, I have a feeling it'll end up as, "Atk*1.125 + Luck * 1.5".
By the rules of math I know "Atk*1.125 + Luck*1.5" and "(Atk*1.125) + (Luck*1.5)" are the exact same thing, so no idea what you're thinking of there.

As for Hawk&Kevin, technically we could give only them -25% final damage but then we'd be far away from a bug fix and deep in rebalance territory.

I have one thought I wanted to just get out there with criticals: regardless of the damage calculation, we really need some kind of differentiating sound for them
Doesn't the beeping from (almost) dieing count?

#### Vanya

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1942
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2021, 06:48:05 am »
By the rules of math I know "Atk*1.125 + Luck*1.5" and "(Atk*1.125) + (Luck*1.5)" are the exact same thing, so no idea what you're thinking of there.

Math in assembly code is handles very differently than in normal written out equations.
It doesn't quite work that way in most higher programming languages either.

In the case of assembly you have to specify each step of the equation in the order you want it done.
So it would look something like:

Atk * 1.125 = x;
Luck * 1.5 = y;
x + y = z;

For contrast in C++, "Atk * 1.125 + Luck * 1.5" would processed from left to right executing each pair of statements in the order they appear.
So it would end up like this:

Atk * 1.125 = x;
x + Luck = y;
y * 1.5 = z;

That will give you a very different result than if you were to use the parenthesis.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 06:55:38 am by Vanya »

#### hmsong

• Hero Member
• Posts: 747
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2021, 08:28:23 am »
By the rules of math I know "Atk*1.125 + Luck*1.5" and "(Atk*1.125) + (Luck*1.5)" are the exact same thing, so no idea what you're thinking of there.

I know that's how real math works, but I meant to say, I have a feeling that the game would interpret it as (((Atk*1.125) + Luck) *1.5), just as Vanya said.  Although mine was based on gut feeling, rather than Vanya's actual programming knowledge.  I think *2 is better than *1.5, to make Luck more meaningful (crit, I'm not too worried about, but Lv1 tech is used more often).  In any case, I'm sure you know what you're doing.  Well, I leave it in your hands.

As for Hawk&Kevin, technically we could give only them -25% final damage but then we'd be far away from a bug fix and deep in rebalance territory.

True that.  Some balancing may be necessary (like what you're doing with critical hit), but there's a line, and reducing Hawk/Kevin's final damage by 25% may be too much into rebalancing territory (although I would absolutely love that).  I would like to request you to do numerous other things, like reducing Kevin's +1/7 werewolf bonus to +1/10 (I think that's more reasonable bonus) and reducing saber elemental weakness bonus of +50% to +20%, but again, that may be crossing the line into rebalance than bugfix.

On the other hand, I know you made the critical chance into 2+Luck, but given how frequent the critical hits are, could you reduce it to 0+Luck instead?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 10:45:14 am by hmsong »

#### praetarius5018

• Full Member
• Posts: 172
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2021, 11:00:30 am »
I know that's how real math works, but I meant to say, I have a feeling that the game would interpret it as (((Atk*1.125) + Luck) *1.5), just as Vanya said.  Although mine was based on gut feeling, rather than Vanya's actual programming knowledge.  In any case, I'm sure you know what you're doing.  I leave that in your capable hands.
Ok, now I get what you meant.
But please consider that not everyone knows asm; so for the sake of allowing them to follow the train of thought as well, we should either keep it to normal math or at least mark it as low level code talk or something.

True that.  Some balancing may be necessary (like what you're doing with critical hit), but there's a line, and reducing Hawk/Kevin's final damage by 25% may be too much into rebalancing territory (although I would absolutely love that).
Kevin is OP either way, in wolf form without extra nerf he is basically Duran at double speed.
Whether Hawk or Duran is stronger just depends on target def or presence of power up buff; and nerfing Hawk a little bit would ease my mind with giving a bit more oomph to the luck stat on a crit.
Maybe even dare scale it relative to the equipped weapon:
just flat +(luck * weaponfactor)/3 (monster have no weapon but could probably substitute a pseudo weaponfactor by level/4 or so)
ok that is probably a bit too much

I would request you to simply reduce Kevin's +1/7 werewolf bonus to +1/10 (I think that's more reasonable bonus), but that may be crossing the line of bugfix.
Let's be honest, I already crossed that line when I enabled crits.
Random chance to deal Lv1 tech damage is a massive balance change; not that it helps with how OP melee already was (relatively to magic casting being effectively suicide)
crit chance =50% from energy ball breaks the game as well... should probably interpret it as x1.5 (+50%) instead of set to 50%

On the other hand, I know you made the critical chance into 2+Luck, but given how frequent the critical hits are, could you reduce it to 0+Luck instead?
+0 would make the beginning of the game even slower than it already is; 2% crit chance for Duran&Kevin basically means they always deal vanilla damage.

what are the opinions on spell damage by scaled by the target's "rank" (class change for player) instead of the user's
rank0 (L0-19) / base class = 100%
rank1 (L20-39) / 1st class = 160%
rank2 (L40+) / 2nd class = 190%
imo that is backwards but I've never seen it called out as a bug

dunno, at this point I should probably give it a real name instead of just "bug fix" and go a step further...
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 11:06:30 am by praetarius5018 »

#### hmsong

• Hero Member
• Posts: 747
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2021, 07:49:35 pm »
Whether Hawk or Duran is stronger just depends on target def or presence of power up buff; and nerfing Hawk a little bit would ease my mind with giving a bit more oomph to the luck stat on a crit.
Maybe even dare scale it relative to the equipped weapon:
just flat +(luck * weaponfactor)/3 (monster have no weapon but could probably substitute a pseudo weaponfactor by level/4 or so)
ok that is probably a bit too much

Yeah, I think that's a little too much too.

Let's be honest, I already crossed that line when I enabled crits.
Random chance to deal Lv1 tech damage is a massive balance change; not that it helps with how OP melee already was (relatively to magic casting being effectively suicide)
crit chance =50% from energy ball breaks the game as well... should probably interpret it as x1.5 (+50%) instead of set to 50%

Hmm.  Instead of increasing critical hit rate, I would prefer if you increase the critical damage (to the original +50%).  That way, Energy Ball won't be as overpowered, but not useless either.

That reminds me.  I know you said that Speed Up changes ACC to +10/-15, but could you perhaps raise that slightly?  Also, the same for EVA (instead of +x%, add a fixed EVA point).  I'm asking you this, because Speed Up is still pretty useless, based on my fights against Tzenker.  I used Kevin, and I never raised speed stat (I was at Lv10), and I still felt that I missed Tzenker no more than I typically do.  The same with when that mole boss, when he used Speed Down on me.

+0 would make the beginning of the game even slower than it already is; 2% crit chance for Duran&Kevin basically means they always deal vanilla damage.

I thought the speed in the beginning is fine.  Even if it's true that it's slower, the problem is that enemies have high chance of doing critical hit.  I think that's the bigger issue in the beginning, esp since you don't have many healing option.  But that's just me.

what are the opinions on spell damage by scaled by the target's "rank" (class change for player) instead of the user's
rank0 (L0-19) / base class = 100%
rank1 (L20-39) / 1st class = 160%
rank2 (L40+) / 2nd class = 190%
imo that is backwards but I've never seen it called out as a bug

Sorry, I didn't quite understand you.  I know that spells damage output changes, based on how many class ups you had, but you want to change it, so that enemies' levels will affect the boost, instead of player's class?

If so, then I... disagree.  Some people who never played this game don't even know the existence of 2nd class up.  I've seen other people gameplay, and they just beat the game as 1st class up, because they don't know the existence of 2nd class up (based on their commentaries).  Maybe some people will choose to not get 2nd class up.  But if enemies' power scale jumps, then those players are pretty much doomed.

dunno, at this point I should probably give it a real name instead of just "bug fix" and go a step further...

The name could be, "mechanic fix", but I think "bug fix" gets the attention of people.  That name has a lot of hook.

#### mkwong98

• Full Member
• Posts: 142
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2021, 11:07:47 pm »
Is it impossible to apply the crit bonus after defense? I'm interested to see the steps in the calculation.

#### EvilJagaGenius

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 92
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2021, 11:15:36 pm »
Maybe it would be a good idea to add the three-player hack to the list as well.  Does it work with the other patches too?  https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/179/

#### Red Soul

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 303
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2021, 05:12:31 am »
Maybe it would be a good idea to add the three-player hack to the list as well.  Does it work with the other patches too?  https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/179/
It does work, but it requires some "header dancing"
The 3-player patch and the translation patch require headers, while most other patches (correctly) don't.

There's also the ghost ship caveat to take into account.

October 29, 2021, 05:18:13 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@HMSong

Personally, I think magic is too weak and slow to have any real merit. It should cast almost instantly to be able to even remotely keep up with melee, DPS wise, not to mention mounting mana costs with every class up (speaking strictly of offensive magic here).

Frankly, it's more than a little absurd that Wanderer Hawk can be a better caster than Angela in practice (decent damage via Poison Bubble + virtually infinite MP) and Ninja Master Hawk is, for all intents and purposes, a better caster-debuffer than Rune Master Angela (cheap MT Jutsus with debuffs).

I'm not saying I have a good idea on how to balance it, but it is grossly underpowered compared to melee, that much is clear.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 05:18:13 am by Red Soul »

#### soul_knight

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 67
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2021, 05:59:42 am »
@hmsong

Can you make it so that Dragon Shield can be gotten from ??? Seed, after the 2nd class up?  The bugfix patch makes Dragon Shield awesome, but you can't even get it, unless a very specific situation occurs in a limited time frame.  Or make it only available to Duran LL.  I mean, Duran LD has 2 shields.  So why shouldn't Duran's LL have 2 shields?

#### praetarius5018

• Full Member
• Posts: 172
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2021, 06:00:13 am »
Is it impossible to apply the crit bonus after defense? I'm interested to see the steps in the calculation.
In all calculations subtracting def is the last step.

I think having it as a % increase after def would just make Duran and Kevin better and nerf everyone else; like Angela and Charlie can barely get through endgame mob defense (I think the highest has 245) with their best weapon and maxed STR (can they even reach 250?), so a crit for them would give maybe 2 points of extra damage without using power up. And that despite those 2 having some of the highest luck stats.

Yeah, I think that's a little too much too.
Hawk, 270 atk, 15x weapon, 22 luck: 270+15x22/3=270+110=380
before: 270x1.5=405
Duran, 350 atk, 15x weapon, 18 luck: 350+15x18/3=350+90=440
before: 350x1.5=525
lv50 monster, lets say 400 atk dark lord with saber (don't know the real value, just an estimate):
400+12x18/3=400+72=472
before:400x1.5=600

wasn't as bad as I thought and would give luck very slightly more value, +5 damage on a crit when STR gives +15 all the time.

Hmm.  Instead of increasing critical hit rate, I would prefer if you increase the critical damage (to the original +50%).  That way, Energy Ball won't be as overpowered, but not useless either.
+25% -> +50% on 20% crit rate would be like 5% more average damage, doesn't sound worth casting to me.

keeping +25% damage and upping crit rate from 20% to 30% is more or less the same

remember that power up is like +50% effective damage and can be bought in the black market while energy ball is the only spell that death hand gets. we could give energy ball both effects and it would still be weaker than power up.

That reminds me.  I know you said that Speed Up changes ACC to +10/-15, but could you perhaps raise that slightly?  Also, the same for EVA (instead of +x%, add a fixed EVA point).  I'm asking you this, because Speed Up is still pretty useless, based on my fights against Tzenker.  I used Kevin, and I never raised speed stat (I was at Lv10), and I still felt that I missed Tzenker no more than I typically do.  The same with when that mole boss, when he used Speed Down on me.
I think the issue with Tzenker is that she has actually 0 evade stat but you miss her based on position/flying state.

I thought the speed in the beginning is fine.  Even if it's true that it's slower, the problem is that enemies have high chance of doing critical hit.  I think that's the bigger issue in the beginning, esp since you don't have many healing option.  But that's just me.
"high chance" is like 5% there...

Sorry, I didn't quite understand you.  I know that spells damage output changes, based on how many class ups you had, but you want to change it, so that enemies' levels will affect the boost, instead of player's class?
Currently it checks for the target's class rank; monster are treated as class 1 at lv20-39 or class 2 at lv40+.
That means that it is currently detrimental for the player to class change a second time.
First need to grind for a rare drop (??? seed) on a handful of specific enemies, then you need to pray again to get the right 1/3 item from it and all you get immediatly is TAKING MORE DAMAGE - thanks game.

Personally, I think magic is too weak and slow to have any real merit. It should cast almost instantly to be able to even remotely keep up with melee, DPS wise, not to mention mounting mana costs with every class up (speaking strictly of offensive magic here).
Given the mess that fixing the casttime bug caused last time I should probably just make all spells cast instantly instead here; items and boss spells would still have priority though.
Would it seem overpowered if you can instantly stone cloud some mob to death? Yes but that requires levels that are already past what you need to finish the game comfortably with just the buffs you can buy; and you can already do the same by opening the menu with a second character once - so really, this is just a QOL change...

#### mkwong98

• Full Member
• Posts: 142
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2021, 01:06:19 pm »
Instead of crit increasing the attack, how about making crit reduce/ignore def?

#### praetarius5018

• Full Member
• Posts: 172
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2021, 01:10:34 pm »
Instead of crit increasing the attack, how about making crit reduce/ignore def?
The basic formula is at its core ATK - DEF, so whether we increase atk by 50 or lower def by 50 is the same.

Full ignore def would be insane; endgame monster have 200-245 def, so you'd get that much extra def.
Not to be talking about the player taking up to 300 extra damage that way...

#### hmsong

• Hero Member
• Posts: 747
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2021, 07:33:53 pm »
@praetarius5018

wasn't as bad as I thought and would give luck very slightly more value, +5 damage on a crit when STR gives +15 all the time.

Well, everyone knew that Str and Vit are 2 most important values in the game.  The idea is to reduce the gap between Str and Luck, but I don't think anyone expects Luck to be just as valuable as Str.

remember that power up is like +50% effective damage and can be bought in the black market while energy ball is the only spell that death hand gets. we could give energy ball both effects and it would still be weaker than power up.

Well, isn't that why you reduced Power Up from +33% to +20%?  That way, it's nowhere near as devastatingly powerful?  What I do know is that if the critical hit rate is upped to 50%, it'd be insane.  As you said, giving the damage boost to critical damage (aka +50%) and increasing the critical hit rate of fixed +10 would be good enough.  Maybe +15 (22 + 15 = 37% critical rate, which is quite powerful).  Not sure.

I did create a hack that changes the black market item, so that Power Up isn't available as early.  And there's significantly more merit than vanilla in that hack, so I think people will use it (and therefore deny themselves the early Power Up).

I think the issue with Tzenker is that she has actually 0 evade stat but you miss her based on position/flying state.

I'm saying Tzenker before Speed Up and Tzenker after Speed Up feels no different, in terms of me missing attacks.  But now that I know that she has 0 Eva, I know why (0 * 1.20 = 0).  I don't know how that's possible, since she has Lv10 Lise's stats, right? (meaning she should have ~8 Agi stat)  In any case, Speed Up/Down affecting the Eva stat by fixed amount would bring more merit to Speed Up/Down.

"high chance" is like 5% there...

Well, yeah.  But that additional +2% of critical hit for everyone is just... I don't think people will mind not seeing critical hit in the beginning.  They're gonna see plenty in the later parts of the game.

Currently it checks for the target's class rank; monster are treated as class 1 at lv20-39 or class 2 at lv40+.
That means that it is currently detrimental for the player to class change a second time.
First need to grind for a rare drop (??? seed) on a handful of specific enemies, then you need to pray again to get the right 1/3 item from it and all you get immediatly is TAKING MORE DAMAGE - thanks game.

Well, the damage output suddenly increasing at Lv40 is probably worse.  That is, unless the damage increase affects the players too.  Personally, I think leaving that particular mechanic as vanilla way is adequate.  Far from perfect, but adequate.

Given the mess that fixing the casttime bug caused last time I should probably just make all spells cast instantly instead here; items and boss spells would still have priority though.
Would it seem overpowered if you can instantly stone cloud some mob to death? Yes but that requires levels that are already past what you need to finish the game comfortably with just the buffs you can buy; and you can already do the same by opening the menu with a second character once - so really, this is just a QOL change...

I think all spells being insta-cast is a bit too much.  I much prefer if you fix the cast bug.  Sure, spells are not as useful as melee, but if we're talking about Angela, she would do more damage with magic than her own melee, and without putting herself in harm's way (as much).  You can't be comparing Angela's magic vs Kevin's melee (or something similar).  You have to compare Angela's magic vs Angela's melee.

Besides, my Class Balance patch neutralizes some of that, since I increased the spell damage (some by a lot), and decreased the cast time.

@Red Soul

Frankly, it's more than a little absurd that Wanderer Hawk can be a better caster than Angela in practice (decent damage via Poison Bubble + virtually infinite MP) and Ninja Master Hawk is, for all intents and purposes, a better caster-debuffer than Rune Master Angela (cheap MT Jutsus with debuffs).

That's why I got rid of Poison Bubble from LL Hawk (Wanderer), and gave him Leaf Saber instead (same as his enemy counterpart -- Porobin Leader).  I also gave Poison Bubble to DL Angela, to make her more useful.  But to be honest, by the time you get the 2nd class up, Magic Walnut x99 will be extremely cheap (less than 8000 Lucre).  Poison Bubble (aka tree element, which gives the MP gaining effect) is no more useful than other spells with the same strength.  Actually, tree-element is 2nd most useless element (worst being obviously dark), because nothing is weak against tree, while plenty resist it, while MP regaining ability is negligible by that point.

I also made it so that Jutsus use Agi for damage, instead of Int, to make them different from Angela.  It's not perfect, but it's an adequate solution, I think.  I hope.

And let's not forget.  All the girls (Angela, Carlie, Lise) get cast time bonus when they get 2nd class change.  That's why vanilla Carlie's 2nd class is able to cast insta Heal Light (I made it so that Heal Light cast time is not instant, although my motive was to make the healing items not obsolete).

@soul_knight

Can you make it so that Dragon Shield can be gotten from ??? Seed, after the 2nd class up?  The bugfix patch makes Dragon Shield awesome, but you can't even get it, unless a very specific situation occurs in a limited time frame.  Or make it only available to Duran LL.  I mean, Duran LD has 2 shields.  So why shouldn't Duran's LL have 2 shields?

That's a good idea, but I'm not sure if I can make it happen.  I'll look into it, but don't get your hopes up.

#### mkwong98

• Full Member
• Posts: 142
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2021, 09:28:00 pm »
The basic formula is at its core ATK - DEF, so whether we increase atk by 50 or lower def by 50 is the same.

Full ignore def would be insane; endgame monster have 200-245 def, so you'd get that much extra def.
Not to be talking about the player taking up to 300 extra damage that way...

It is not the same if it is 50% as you stated earlier, not fixed 50 points.
Come to think of it, may be adding a fixed value to the final damage actually works better?

#### soul_knight

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 67
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2021, 09:35:55 pm »
For everyone, bugfix patch has been updated!  Everyone, try it out!

I'm gonna try it tomorrow when I go home.  Thanks, praetarius5018!

#### Red Soul

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 303
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2021, 11:43:49 pm »
Awesome, I'll definitely take a good look at it.

Edit: Love the changes there. I took a gander at the changes and they are all great; even as a Kevin main I recognize he's quite strong, so balancing things out is nice. I'm sure he'll remain very strong and viable, but more in line with the rest of the cast.

HMSong, I assume your patches will work okay with this one? I refer mostly to the skill redistribution patch you made.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2021, 12:26:41 am by Red Soul »

#### praetarius5018

• Full Member
• Posts: 172
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2021, 05:59:47 am »
Well, isn't that why you reduced Power Up from +33% to +20%?  That way, it's nowhere near as devastatingly powerful?
That and bringing it more in line with magic damage increase since that is only +25%; relatively speaking enemy p.def is higher than their m.def so I "include" that difference in damage gain in the corresponding def debuff.

I'm saying Tzenker before Speed Up and Tzenker after Speed Up feels no different, in terms of me missing attacks.  But now that I know that she has 0 Eva, I know why (0 * 1.20 = 0).  I don't know how that's possible, since she has Lv10 Lise's stats, right? (meaning she should have ~8 Agi stat)  In any case, Speed Up/Down affecting the Eva stat by fixed amount would bring more merit to Speed Up/Down.
It works the same way as all other stats; you have base stats based on Lise's (Koren uses Angela's and Heath uses Charlie's, all other -> Lise) stat cap for that level (Lv1-19 base class, 20-39 light class, 40+ L/L class) then apply a percentage modifier to the final value that varies by creature type. And Tzenker has -100% on evade.
Honestly I believe the evade modifiers were decided while drunk; most of them make little logical sense.
Examples:
ninja -98%
ninja master +8%
nightblade -57% (yes, the master of assassination evades worse than any of the mages)
magician -12%
wizard +5% (3rd highest out of all non-bosses, seriously)
high wizard -27%
specter +100%
ghost -44% (the evolved form of a typically incorporal creature, ladies and gentlemen)

bill/ben +0%
koren +15%
heath +70%(!!)
dangaard -100% (flying creature during high speed chase? free hits ofc!)

Well, yeah.  But that additional +2% of critical hit for everyone is just... I don't think people will mind not seeing critical hit in the beginning.  They're gonna see plenty in the later parts of the game.
I mean you could implement a kind of crit defense, something like:
crit rate = 5 + attacker.luck - (target.luck/2)
with that Hawk would go from about 10% to 17% over the course of the game or Duran 6% to 12%

Well, the damage output suddenly increasing at Lv40 is probably worse.  That is, unless the damage increase affects the players too.  Personally, I think leaving that particular mechanic as vanilla way is adequate.  Far from perfect, but adequate.
It counts for both sides, and also for heal light because why not.

In the patch I made it so that it uses the caster's level and ignores the class rank; so even if you don't class change you have +90% at Lv40.
And lets be fair, with enabled crits melee already got a bonus, so magic getting a little something here as well isn't necessarily wrong.

I think all spells being insta-cast is a bit too much.  I much prefer if you fix the cast bug.  Sure, spells are not as useful as melee, but if we're talking about Angela, she would do more damage with magic than her own melee, and without putting herself in harm's way (as much). You can't be comparing Angela's magic vs Kevin's melee (or something similar).  You have to compare Angela's magic vs Angela's melee.
No, I MUST compare Angela's magic to Kevin's melee, because both of them are choices for party members.
1) it is NOT a dps increase since you could already do the same by alternating casting of 2 party members since the cast time still ticks down while you select the spell of the other caster and during the spell animations
2) you still have to deal with mp costs, counter attacks and long spell animations

Also I won't fix the cast time, not again, once having to deal with that mess is enough; if you want to, be my guest, but I won't touch it.

And let's not forget.  All the girls (Angela, Carlie, Lise) get cast time bonus when they get 2nd class change.
Sorry, but this info is false or at least incomplete.
EVERYONE gets a drop of 60 ticks to their cast time per class change, not only the girls or only on 2nd class change.

That's a good idea, but I'm not sure if I can make it happen.  I'll look into it, but don't get your hopes up.
If you find out where the seeds get their item lists from, I'd like that info as well, please.

It is not the same if it is 50% as you stated earlier, not fixed 50 points.
Come to think of it, may be adding a fixed value to the final damage actually works better?
I went with fixed 50 as an example for how much a given value of luck could ignore; I was thinking not a fixed percentage but a value that scales by the luck stat. Problem is then that it doesn't matter if we reduce def or increase atk, since the result there is the same.

Ignoring fix 50% would again help Hawk and Kevin way too much since they hit twice as often for the flat 100-120 extra damage at the end.

#### hmsong

• Hero Member
• Posts: 747
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2021, 05:00:48 pm »
@Red Soul

Based on what I can tell, all of my patches are still compatible with the bugfix v1.5, as far as code compatibility is concerned.  Whew.  However, the new bugfix hack probably ignores any cast time edits that I did, meaning all casts are now super fast.  I haven't tested how well the melee works, so if anyone tests this patch (I will do so later), any empirical observation and posting how things work (and the flaws/bugs) would be great.

@praetarius5018

Honestly I believe the evade modifiers were decided while drunk; most of them make little logical sense.
Examples:
ninja -98%
ninja master +8%
nightblade -57% (yes, the master of assassination evades worse than any of the mages)
magician -12%
wizard +5% (3rd highest out of all non-bosses, seriously)
high wizard -27%
specter +100%
ghost -44% (the evolved form of a typically incorporal creature, ladies and gentlemen)

bill/ben +0%
koren +15%
heath +70%(!!)
dangaard -100% (flying creature during high speed chase? free hits ofc!)

Wtf!  Lol!  Wow.  I did notice that Specter and Heath have high evade, but I didn't know why.  That is incredible.

In the patch I made it so that it uses the caster's level and ignores the class rank; so even if you don't class change you have +90% at Lv40.
And lets be fair, with enabled crits melee already got a bonus, so magic getting a little something here as well isn't necessarily wrong.

Ah.  Then I guess that's more fair.  So to be clear, at Lv40 (for player), all screen-freezing skills (including Heal Light) will have increased power?  Does that include Lv2/3 techs?  Are there any other skills that gain power?

Sorry, but this info is false or at least incomplete.
EVERYONE gets a drop of 60 ticks to their cast time per class change, not only the girls or only on 2nd class change.

Oh, I didn't know that.  I said what I said based on empirical observation, not through code searching.

If you find out where the seeds get their item lists from, I'd like that info as well, please.

Yikes.  If you can't find it, then it's very unlikely I'll be able to find it.  But I'll look around.  Maybe I'll get lucky.

#### Red Soul

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 303
##### Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2021, 05:13:17 pm »
@Red Soul

Based on what I can tell, all of my patches are still compatible with the bugfix v1.5, as far as code compatibility is concerned.  Whew.  However, the new bugfix hack probably ignores any cast time edits that I did, meaning all casts are now super fast.  I haven't tested how well the melee works, so if anyone tests this patch (I will do so later), any empirical observation and posting how things work (and the flaws/bugs) would be great.

Sure thing. I intend to start a new playthrough soon, and I want it to contain Praetarius' 1.5 bugfix as well as your skill, stat and gear patches to shake things up. Any specific party you want field tested?