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Author Topic: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion  (Read 27734 times)

hmsong

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Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« on: October 22, 2021, 09:05:40 pm »
SEIKEN DENSETSU 3 (aka Trials of Mana) HACKS DISCUSSION

This is the thread for Seiken Densetsu 3 hacks for SNES.  Most of the links are patches by me, but I'm willing to put others' works, as long as they are compatible with my hacks (if they're not, then I'm willing to work with you to make them compatible).  I created this thread, because I've been getting similar questions from multiple people, and I felt that this is a great way share information.  Feel free to talk about anything SD3 related, including other people's works.  I'll be updating this particular post, whenever I feel that there's a change that I need to address to everyone.  Everything listed below is compatible with each other.

Better Monsters and Maps, by hmsong

Better Starting Stats, by hmsong

Black Rabite, by hmsong

Class Balance + No Skill Counter, by hmsong
- You have an option to either use No Skill Counter or not use it.

Gemstone Valley Dorian Bug Fix, by hmsong
- This won't be necessary if you use either Better Monsters patch or praetarius5018's Bugfix patch.

Item Shop Changes, by hmsong

Less Grinding, by hmsong
- Compatible with Better Monsters patch and Class Balance patch.  However, apply them first, then apply the Less Grinding patch.

Useful Energy Ball, by hmsong
- Compatible with Class Balance patch.  However, apply the Balance patches first, then apply the Useful Energy Ball patch.
- If you are using praetarius5018's bugfix patch, then I suggest you to NOT use this Useful Energy Ball patch, since his bugfix patch fixes the critical hit bug, and the Useful Energy Ball will overwrite that.

Evade Changes, by hmsong
- Praetarius5018's bugfix patch is REQUIRED for this patch to have any effect.  Also, apply this AFTER applying the bugfix patch first.
- Compatible with Better Monsters patch and Less Grinding patch.  However, apply them first, then apply the Evade Changes patch.  If all are applied, the order goes:
  1. Bugfix.
  2. Better Monsters.
  3. Less Grinding.
  4. Evade Changes.

Bugfix Edition, by praetarius5018
- Compatible with Seiken Densetsu 3 (J) and fan translation, but not with the official Trials of Mana (U).

Hues of Mana, by Red Soul

Trials of Mana Sample Swap, by _aitchFactor



Applying Notes (regarding hmsong's hacks):
  • This is specifically for No Header ROM.  If you only have a Headered ROM, then you can use TUSH to remove the header.
  • Compatible with the English NCorlett-translation patch.  But again, you need a No Header ROM.  If you are using the translation patch from Romhacking.net, then you need to apply the translation to a Headered ROM first, then use TUSH to remove the header.  And then you can apply these patches.  It might be easier to find the English version of No Header ROM.
  • Compatible with the new Trials of Mana ROM, released in 2019.  But again, you need a No Header ROM.
  • Compatible with praetarius5018's bugfix patch.  However, some of my patches (ex: Class Balance, Better Monster, Less Grinding) overwrite some minor things from the bugfix patch.



I got multiple questions about the No Header ROM (and about the compatibility with the 3-player hack, in which case is NOT compatible due to it being for Headered ROM), so I'm gonna post a link to the SD3/ToM ROM site.  It has the pre-patched 3-player No Header ROM, so use that, if you desire so.

MOD EDIT: No ROM links. It's 2021, people know how to find SNES ROMs themselves. People interested in SNES hacks would be advised to learn about the very easy ways of applying patches and learning how to add/remove headers themselves.

My Edit: Whoops.  I didn't know you can't post links to ROM sites.  My bad.  Won't happen again.  In any case, just use google, "Seiken Densetsu 3 Rom 3 player", and you should be able to find the pre-patched 3-player No Header ROM in one of the sites.



I'd also like to share information about the game.  Here is some not-so-obvious information regarding the original game:
  • Many of the enemies and bosses will counterattack with powerful skills if you hurt them with screen-freezing skills (magic, techs, items, etc).  This threw off the balance for many characters/classes.
  • AntiMagic not only cancels the magic buff/debuffs (stat change, sabers, barriers, etc), but it also erases the target's natural element absorb/reflect.  That means that if you use AntiMagic on an enemy that normally absorb Fire, it will now receive normal damage from Fire.  However, AntiMagic does not erase element immunity/resist/weakness.
  • Saber magics not only give melee attacks the element, it also gives the melee power +10%.  It also overwrites whatever power buff/debuff you had earlier.  So if you use Power Up (+33%), then use a Saber magic, you will only get +10%.  But if you use the Saber magic first, then use Power Up, then you will get both the element effect and +33%.
  • Both Poison Breath and Fire Breath look like they do Tree and Fire damage respectively, but they both do Non-Elemental damage.
  • Demon Breath looks like it does Dark damage, but it actually does Fire damage.
  • Cutter Missile and Axe Bomber look like they do Fire damage, but they actually do Non-Elemental damage.
  • Many of the God-Beast unique skills (ex: Ice Cradle, Air Slasher, Hell Cross, etc) are actually Non-Elemental.  That means, they don't get power up from particular days.  Still, there are plenty of skills that have elements, so it's still wise to avoid fighting them on their elemental day.
  • Counter Magic reflects all spells/skills that does elemental damage.  That means, it's able to reflect back things like Rocket Launcher and Jutsus, but not Carlie/Lise's summons.  In addition, it wont' be able to reflect the skills that don't do damage, like Heal Light, Sabers, or any of the buff/debuffs.

Here is some bug information regarding the original game:
  • When a character/enemy casts a spell, the casting time still moves while paused.  This can be abused to erase the casting time.  On the other hand, this can also work against you, such as when the enemy is casting, or you use TransShape (its time still runs during the pause).
  • Agility raises both ACC and EVA, but the very concept of ACC and EVA doesn't work.  That means, Duran's shields and Speed Up/Down spells have NO EFFECT on anything.  Having said that, Agility affects the strengths of numerous skills, such as throw items (Dart, Hand Axe, etc) and skills (Silver Dart, Axe Bomber, etc).  It also slows down the chest trap wheel spinning speed (and how quickly it stops the wheel).
  • Luck is supposed to raise the Critical Hit rate, but the very concept of Critical Hit doesn't work.  Naturally, skills that raise critical hits, i.e Energy Ball (and its relative items) has NO EFFECT on anything.  Luck stat however still affects how many traps are on the chest trap wheel.
  • A character/enemy can only be inflicted with ONE status effect (SE).  So if a character is affected by one SE but attacked with an attack that causes another SE, then the first SE will be overwritten by the second SE.
  • There are skills that are supposed to cause Burn SE (Blaze Wall, Fire Breath, and Demon Breath), but Burn SE was never implemented, so if you use those skills on an enemy, it will instead overwrite whatever SE it had with the non-existent Burn SE (which is equivalent to curing SE).
  • When bosses use Counter Magic (i.e. Gildervine and Mispolm), it doesn't reflect all elements.  Specifically, it reflects only Air, Water, and Fire elemental attacks; it does not reflect Earth, Light, Dark, and Tree elemental attacks.
  • Skills/items that affect Magic Effectiveness (ex: Mind Up, Fire Jutsu) affect Magic Defense, even more than the skills that only affect Magic Defense (ex: Magic Shield).  Big thanks goes to soul_knight for this information.
Naturally, some of these were changed in my patches or praetarius5018's bugfix patch.  Read the attached documents of the hacks for details.



Feel free to post some strategies (more for post-hacks).  I'll update this section if the suggested strategy is practical.  I won't post the absurdly powerful game-breaking bugs though (ex: eliminating the cast by pausing the game).  Some of the strategies only work after certain hacks above are applied.  I'll start off:
  • If one of your characters is about to die (HP is fluctuating between 0 and 1), then immediately pause the game and have that character use a spell.  While that character is casting, use a recovery item (ex: Round Drop) on him to give him a second chance at life.  This can still fail though, but it is better than 0%.
  • An enemy/character can only be affected by one SE, so if you're affected by Silence SE, then you can use the Chibikko Hammer to overwrite the Silence SE with Chibikko SE, then use the Chibikko Hammer again to cure the Chibikko SE.  Chibikko Hammer is not only infinite usage, but it can multi-target, so this has many uses.
  • You generally want to start the boss battle by casting Lunatic (or Moon Coin) on the boss.  It lowers boss's Max HP by 20%, which means you just instantly did 20% of its HP damage (against Black Rabite, that's 10,000+ damage!).  Of course, this only applies when the boss's HP is at full health.  Using Lunatic after doing a lot of damage is meaningless.
  • Black Rabite is tough, and one of the reasons that it's so tough is because it uses powerful spell combo when it's HP gets below 50%, then uses dark spells on itself to get its HP to above 50%.  And when you damage it again and the HP goes below 50% HP again, it'll repeat the same spell combo pattern.  The most effective way to get past its deadly combo is to use AntiMagic (or Specter's Eye), so that it can't recover its HP with dark magic.  This all seems intentional by the the devs, as Specter's Eye was something you can buy in the Black Market, and instead of using normal Heal Light, it indirectly heals itself with dark magic.  Very clever.
  • DeathSpell and Turn Undead seem like excellent spells, as they can do 999 damage (esp DeathSpell).  However, they're not as good as they seem, because they cannot do any damage against any enemy above your level.  And by the time you get your 2nd class change, you'll pretty much be outleveled for the most parts of the game.  Of course, if you grind, then you'll get to actually use those spells effectively, but in order to grind, you need to fight a lot, and for the majority of those fights, those spells will be useless.  Still, if you level grind to the appropriate level, then you can use those against the bosses.
  • Use Aura Wave to increase the Tech gauge of a MT Lv2/3 Tech character, then immediately have the character use the Lv2/3 tech to do a lot of damage to all enemies on the screen.  While the spell is being casted, you can do some damage to tough enemies, and the Lv2/3 tech will finish them off.
  • If you want to make your characters' EXP the same, then you can use Gunpowder to kill one of the allies, then have the lower EXP character kill the enemies to even the EXP.
  • Against a tough group of normal enemies (ex: werewolves), use the Magic Seed to freeze all enemies, then quickly kill the tough enemies with the normal melee attacks, before they get the chance to counter you with powerful attacks.  Having said that, some enemies are naturally immune to Freeze SE, while others are temporarily immune to Freeze SE due to them in the middle of casting a skill.  Still, it's a viable (and maybe a bit expensive) strategy that works throughout the entire game.
  • Against Shadowzeros, use the Luna Statue x2 during the Luna Day to quickly finish them off -- this will not trigger the transformation, unless Shadowzeros are already damaged.  Other spells can work too, but it's a bit risky, because they either do too little damage or do too much damage (which triggers the transformation).



If you have any suggestions or find errors, feel free to post them here.  My skills are limited (I only have extremely basic understandings of hacks), but I might be able to work out a solution on some things.

If you want to PM me, then you can do so here.  If the link doesn't work, then you can click my name, then click the name next to "Forum Account", then click "Send PM").
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 05:10:26 am by hmsong »

EvilJagaGenius

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2021, 11:00:54 am »
Is there any combination of hacks you'd recommend using with praetarius5018's bugfix?

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2021, 05:50:15 pm »
Is there any combination of hacks you'd recommend using with praetarius5018's bugfix?

Use the bugfix patch first, then apply my patches in the spelling order. (Better Monster, then Better Starting Stat, then Black Rabite, then Class Balance, and so on).  Of course, if you don't want to use certain patches, you can skip them over.

But I suggest you to not use the Useful Energy Ball patch if you're using praetarius5018's bugfix.

Memorex

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2021, 09:00:55 am »
Great work, will definitely check it out! Been a fan of this game since the translation-patch was releasded some 20 years ago.

What I really would like for this game some day is a hack that makes your character move faster in combat, similar to Secret of Mana,
but I assume that is beyond the scope of your project!

Also the general short range of your weapons was always a bit annoying. Always coinsidered Hawk the coolest character but his tiny knives
forced you to get really close to the enemies..

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2021, 06:52:23 pm »
What I really would like for this game some day is a hack that makes your character move faster in combat, similar to Secret of Mana,
but I assume that is beyond the scope of your project!

Also the general short range of your weapons was always a bit annoying. Always coinsidered Hawk the coolest character but his tiny knives
forced you to get really close to the enemies..

It's not that I don't want to do it... it's that I lack the ability to make the characters move faster in combat.  If I had the ability to create that, I would.  It would have been one of the first thing that I tackled.  There's a SD3 hack called Sin of Mana (which changes a LOT of things, including mechanics on how combat and money system works), and there, the creator somehow enabled the run function in combat.  I found it a bit too tedious, because without reading his documented guide (that comes with his hack), you'll not know why certain things act certain way.  Not very intuitive.

I was told that despite what the graphic looks like, everyone has the same melee combat range (although some characters like Lise may use different attack animation that has longer range).  Based on what little I tested, I think that's true.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 07:02:57 pm by hmsong »

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2021, 11:53:08 pm »
HMSong, if there is interest, feel free to add Hues of Mana to your listing. By the way, I haven't forgotten that change you asked me about a long time ago, I just haven't found a solution for it I'm really happy with.

October 25, 2021, 05:05:46 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Use the bugfix patch first, then apply my patches in the spelling order. (Better Monster, then Better Starting Stat, then Black Rabite, then Class Balance, and so on).  Of course, if you don't want to use certain patches, you can skip them over.

But I suggest you to not use the Useful Energy Ball patch if you're using praetarius5018's bugfix.

I had no idea your patches worked with the Praetarius' bugfix, that's great to know!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 05:05:46 am by Red Soul »

soul_knight

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2021, 01:33:47 am »
Hello.  Just wanted to say hi.

You should put a link to this thread for all your patch introductions.  Almost nobody knows about this place's existence.  Thanks for giving me the credit for Magic Effectiveness bug.  Too bad you can't fix it though.

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2021, 08:31:40 am »
HMSong, if there is interest, feel free to add Hues of Mana to your listing. By the way, I haven't forgotten that change you asked me about a long time ago, I just haven't found a solution for it I'm really happy with.

October 25, 2021, 05:05:46 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I had no idea your patches worked with the Praetarius' bugfix, that's great to know!

Yes, I'd be happy to.  Awesome.  It's been a while, and I honestly forgot the changes I requested.  Sorry.  Whoops.

And yes, my patches work with praetarius's bugfix.  I specifically tried to make them work with his.  Having said that, I use his v1.2 (that I got a long time ago), instead of v1.4, because his v1.4 halves the melee attacks, and that's just too much of tradeoff.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 09:42:48 am by hmsong »

Greyfield

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2021, 01:51:43 pm »
Hi hmsong,

Thanks for this!  This game has been on my short list for awhile, so this seems like a good opportunity to jump in.  From all the reviews I've read, I'm sure I won't be disappointed.

A few questions for you:

- Do you prefer the SD3 NCorlette or the official Trials of Mana translation better?

- Do you know if praetarius5018's bugfix patch is compatible with the official Trials of Mana version?

- Do you feel like your Less Grinding patch adequately compensates for the damage loss in praetarius5018's bugfix patch?  If not, would you be up for integrating a damage buff into your class balance patch or additional XP bonus into your grinding patch for users of the bugfix patch?  You could even advertise it as such, "... praetarius bugfix buff.ips"

Thanks again for taking the time to aggregate this information.  :)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 01:57:28 pm by Greyfield »

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2021, 07:04:29 pm »
Hi hmsong,

Thanks for this!  This game has been on my short list for awhile, so this seems like a good opportunity to jump in.  From all the reviews I've read, I'm sure I won't be disappointed.

A few questions for you:

- Do you prefer the SD3 NCorlette or the official Trials of Mana translation better?

- Do you know if praetarius5018's bugfix patch is compatible with the official Trials of Mana version?

- Do you feel like your Less Grinding patch adequately compensates for the damage loss in praetarius5018's bugfix patch?  If not, would you be up for integrating a damage buff into your class balance patch or additional XP bonus into your grinding patch for users of the bugfix patch?  You could even advertise it as such, "... praetarius bugfix buff.ips"

Thanks again for taking the time to aggregate this information.  :)

1. It really depends on your preference.  The fan translation (we'll say SD3) is more "literal" translation, and ToM is more "spiritual" translation.  I got used to SD3 though.  The problem I have with ToM is that it's slower than SD3 (ex: the transition speed).  SD3 was already pretty slow, and ToM makes it worse.  So I would recommend to go for SD3.  But as stated in my first post, SD3 on Romhacking.net is for a headered rom, and all my patches (as well as most other patches) are for unheadered rom.  Find the unheadered rom (should be able to find it in google).

2. No, praetarius5018's bugfix is NOT compatible with ToM.

3. No, I don't think even Less Grinding is adequate enough to make up the difference of the damage reduction of the bugfix patch.  I haven't played the whole game with his recent patch, because it got too frustrating.  That's why I used his v1.2, which fixes many of the stuff (Agi, Crit, shield, etc), but not reduce the melee attacks.  And no, I'm not going to send you his v1.2, because praetarius5018 specifically did not want me to spread his old patch.  There used to be a site where you can download his old patch, but I heard it's down (either the site, or the download link).  I don't know.  I haven't checked.

If I had the ability to restore the original melee damage, I would... but to be honest, I don't have the skills to know which part of his bugfix patch deals with the damage reduction, so I can't even begin to revert it back.  So sad.  And as for increasing the EXP/GP drops for my Less Grinding (just for the bugfix users), I already pretty much got close to maxing out the EXP drops, so I don't think that's possible... at least for someone of my limited skills (I'll have to increase the EXP drop by at least 50%, and that's gonna be very difficult).  I have some rooms to increase the money drop (again, probably not by +50%), but not EXP.  Obviously, there's no point in just increasing the money drop.  I'll create a patch if I ever figure out the method though.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 11:15:59 pm by hmsong »

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2021, 11:49:47 pm »
Yes, I'd be happy to.  Awesome.  It's been a while, and I honestly forgot the changes I requested.  Sorry.  Whoops.

And yes, my patches work with praetarius's bugfix.  I specifically tried to make them work with his.  Having said that, I use his v1.2 (that I got a long time ago), instead of v1.4, because his v1.4 halves the melee attacks, and that's just too much of tradeoff.

No worries. It had to with Kevin's palette as a Warrior Monk in the "hair only" patch of mine, since the palette is exactly the same as the grapplers when you take the crazy hair out of the equation, but I haven't found a solution to this that doesn't involve either reverting his hair to the normal crazy colors or creating a different palette for Warrior Monk, and one solution would defeat the purpose of the other.

Ah, so your patches don't work with 1.4. It's a bit of a bummer to me (because Praetarius fixed the menu class branch for Kevin on that version on my request). It's a small thing to most, but for me it meant a lot to see that fixed.

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2021, 09:14:33 am »
Ah, so your patches don't work with 1.4. It's a bit of a bummer to me (because Praetarius fixed the menu class branch for Kevin on that version on my request). It's a small thing to most, but for me it meant a lot to see that fixed.

No, you misunderstood.  All of my patches work fine with v1.4, as intended.  It's just that I choose to not use v1.4 when I play the game (despite it being compatible), because I don't want to deal with halved melee attacks.

On the other hand, v1.2 that I have doesn't half my melee attacks, so I use that instead.  Of course, there are numerous bonuses (and fixes) that v1.2 doesn't have, but I think the tradeoff is still worth it.

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2021, 10:59:06 am »
On the other hand, v1.2 that I have doesn't half my melee attacks, so I use that instead.  Of course, there are numerous bonuses (and fixes) that v1.2 doesn't have, but I think the tradeoff is still worth it.
I think this is slightly off-topic but I still want to defend my decision for that:
crits are a massive damage increase. It is not double (after def like normal games) but +50% before def so for weaker characters like Hawk this can mean that he randomly deals like 5x damage.
And since that increase also applies to enemies, endgame you can randomly eat 200+ extra damage over normal hits - which other people have complained about; I can't win here  ::)
If I ever feel like working on SD3 again I'll probably revert the -50% general damage and change the crit damage formula, no promises on that front.

2. No, praetarius5018's bugfix is NOT compatible with ToM.
Correct on that one; some of the fixes I had to do were in the compressed code and ToM changed some of the logic there; don't feel like dealing with that headache from scratch yet again...

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2021, 05:56:10 pm »
No, you misunderstood.  All of my patches work fine with v1.4, as intended.  It's just that I choose to not use v1.4 when I play the game (despite it being compatible), because I don't want to deal with halved melee attacks.

On the other hand, v1.2 that I have doesn't half my melee attacks, so I use that instead.  Of course, there are numerous bonuses (and fixes) that v1.2 doesn't have, but I think the tradeoff is still worth it.

Oh I see, that's good to know. I personally didn't feel any real difference in combat even with 1.4. I prefer taking less damage from moves that would normally lead to wipes like the final tier werewolf enemies' specials for example.

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2021, 07:34:29 pm »
@praetarius5018

I think this is slightly off-topic but I still want to defend my decision for that:
crits are a massive damage increase. It is not double (after def like normal games) but +50% before def so for weaker characters like Hawk this can mean that he randomly deals like 5x damage.
And since that increase also applies to enemies, endgame you can randomly eat 200+ extra damage over normal hits - which other people have complained about; I can't win here  ::)
If I ever feel like working on SD3 again I'll probably revert the -50% general damage and change the crit damage formula, no promises on that front.
Correct on that one; some of the fixes I had to do were in the compressed code and ToM changed some of the logic there; don't feel like dealing with that headache from scratch yet again...

Holy crap, I didn't think you would find this thread, after only few days of this thread's creation.  Wow.

Indeed, crits are quite dangerous by the middle~later parts of the game.  But the price that players have to pay for that is a bit... too much, at least for me.  Crit only comes up occasionally, but regular melee is used SO much, esp in the beginning.  And let's not forget that most bosses and tough enemies do full damage (because they use screen-freezing skills), whereas you only do half damage.  If it only affected Lv1 tech and crit, then I would actually prefer that (as Lv1 tech was too powerful for double hitters), but that's not the case here.

If you someday change the formula for crit (and consequently Lv1 tech), I hope you consider using Agi and Luck stats (instead of Atk*1.5, maybe Atk*1.25+Luck?  Atk*1.25+Agi+Luck?).  They're both rather underused stats (relatively), even after applying your patch.

Also, can I post your RHDN bugfix link in the first post? (in underline)



@Red Soul

Oh I see, that's good to know. I personally didn't feel any real difference in combat even with 1.4. I prefer taking less damage from moves that would normally lead to wipes like the final tier werewolf enemies' specials for example.

Yeah.  I had the same problem.  So except for the werewolves and Shadowzeros, I changed few things for all enemies with MT Lv3 techs, so that they'll do MT Lv2 techs (for damage).  Remember how Nightblades would sometime start with Lv3 SplitImage Slice, and consequently wipe out your whole party?  Now, they'll still use SplitImage Slice, but they'll only do Lv2 tech damage (which is still a lot).  I got that idea after seeing Darkshine Knight using Lv2 tech, then Lv3 tech, but they did the same damage.  It seems that many of those enemies had their own version of Lv2/3 techs, so I was able to modify them without affecting players'.

This only applies for MT techs, and not ST techs.  So Bill/Ben, and other normal enemies with ST Lv3 tech will still kill you if you're not prepared.  As long as it's not a total party kill out of nowhere, I'm good.

Unfortunately, werewolves didn't have their own version, so I couldn't reduce their Lv3 tech power.  And Shadowzeros... ugh.  Just avoid them, because they'll kill you all.  I put up a strategy against them though, assuming players use Class Balance and Item Shop patches.  Spoilers, as that'll make Shadowzeros a cakewalk.  But it's a reward, since in order to even use the strategy, you'd need to first kill Lv50 Shadowzeroes x2.  Good luck with that.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 07:44:28 pm by hmsong »

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2021, 09:35:21 pm »
@Red Soul

Yeah.  I had the same problem.  So except for the werewolves and Shadowzeros, I changed few things for all enemies with MT Lv3 techs, so that they'll do MT Lv2 techs (for damage).  Remember how Nightblades would sometime start with Lv3 SplitImage Slice, and consequently wipe out your whole party?  Now, they'll still use SplitImage Slice, but they'll only do Lv2 tech damage (which is still a lot).  I got that idea after seeing Darkshine Knight using Lv2 tech, then Lv3 tech, but they did the same damage.  It seems that many of those enemies had their own version of Lv2/3 techs, so I was able to modify them without affecting players'.

This only applies for MT techs, and not ST techs.  So Bill/Ben, and other normal enemies with ST Lv3 tech will still kill you if you're not prepared.  As long as it's not a total party kill out of nowhere, I'm good.

Unfortunately, werewolves didn't have their own version, so I couldn't reduce their Lv3 tech power.  And Shadowzeros... ugh.  Just avoid them, because they'll kill you all.  I put up a strategy against them though, assuming players use Class Balance and Item Shop patches.  Spoilers, as that'll make Shadowzeros a cakewalk.  But it's a reward, since in order to even use the strategy, you'd need to first kill Lv50 Shadowzeroes x2.  Good luck with that.

The only safe way I found to deal with Shadowzeroes is killing them quickly before they transform, haha.

So enemy werewolves don't have individual specials? I had a feeling that was the case when I was dealing with palettes because Lugar/Ludgar and Moonreading Tower werewolves all share palettes and as far as I can tell there's no way to match palettes correctly for both cases, so it's no surprises it's the same for specials.

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2021, 05:48:56 am »
If you someday change the formula for crit (and consequently Lv1 tech), I hope you consider using Agi and Luck stats (instead of Atk*1.5, maybe Atk*1.25+Luck?  Atk*1.25+Agi+Luck?).  They're both rather underused stats (relatively), even after applying your patch.
In a discussion for crit I arrived at Atk*1.125 + Luck*1.5
for endgame that should reach around 60-85 extra damage.
Considering a ~20% crit rate that is only a laughable ~15 average extra damage per hit.
If we went with Atk*1.25+luck the bonus damage alone would reach around a third of Angela's max health, so we'd still be in sudden death mode for the squishier half of the cast. Can't really go higher without adding a "crit defense" and that would just make Hawk even more broken than he already is.


Also, can I post your RHDN bugfix link in the first post? (in underline)
Don't see why not.

Greyfield

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2021, 03:23:35 pm »
Hmsong, thanks for all your replies above.  I'll try the SD3+Translation+Bugfixes+Patches and see how that goes!  If grinding becomes too much, I'll try ToM+Patches.

Praetarius5018, I empathize with you on the balancing side of thing.  I've been putting together a Final Fantasy NES minimalist rebalance patch for a long while now and I can't win even in my own headspace.  There are so many broken, imbalanced pieces that fixing one thing always seems to create problems somewhere else.

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2021, 08:02:03 pm »
In a discussion for crit I arrived at Atk*1.125 + Luck*1.5
for endgame that should reach around 60-85 extra damage.
Considering a ~20% crit rate that is only a laughable ~15 average extra damage per hit.
If we went with Atk*1.25+luck the bonus damage alone would reach around a third of Angela's max health, so we'd still be in sudden death mode for the squishier half of the cast. Can't really go higher without adding a "crit defense" and that would just make Hawk even more broken than he already is.

Don't see why not.

"Atk*1.125 + Luck*1.5"?  Wouldn't that just result in even bigger damage output?  I know what you intend is, "(Atk*1.125) + (Luck*1.5)", as that's how real math works when using multiplication, but because of how old games work, I have a feeling it'll end up as, "Atk*1.125 + Luck * 1.5".  Or maybe I'm just totally wrong there.  In any case, *1.5 seems a bit weird, since Luck maxes out at 22, with minimum at 15 (which is additional +10 points by the end of the game from min to max (22-15 * 1.5), which is nothing).  I prefer Luck*2 (or Luck+Luck), or even Luck*3, but that's just me.  Perhaps I'm underestimating *1.125.  Wait, given how frequent critical hits are, and given that the final attack power is at minimum 250 (so 250*1.125 + (20*1.5) = 311.25), that's easily over +60 damage points each.  That's actually a lot more powerful than I thought.

Hawk may be broken, but as you said in the other thread, Kevin's even more broken, due to his werewolf form having stackable +1/7 attack power boost.  I think Kevin has the lowest Luck (same as Duran), so maybe that'll balance things out a bit.

I'll put the link above.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 08:17:29 pm by hmsong »

Chicken Knife

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2021, 10:02:57 pm »
The activity on this thread just so happened to get me playing a bit of Trials of Mana SFC again. I'm giving Red Soul's really neat recolor hack a spin, along with the latest version of the bug fix hack.

I have one thought I wanted to just get out there with criticals: regardless of the damage calculation, we really need some kind of differentiating sound for them, as seems to be standard in most games with critical hits. One of the reasons it's so easy to die from enemy criticals in SD3 is that you never get that audible que, and there is often too much going on on the screen visually to react to the higher damage number popping up. Obviously this would take some impressive hacking to cause criticals to trigger a different, more aggressive hit sound.

October 27, 2021, 10:18:26 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Edit:

Half the sounds in battle get skipped simply because there is too much going on for the audio sampling to follow. So this idea for a different crit sound may not ultimate be all that effective.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 10:18:26 pm by Chicken Knife »