Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion

[hmsong]

mapped Kevin's transformation from power up to berserk, watched his status ailments in ram watch, then he got hit by a carmilla and the status was gone and he could use tech again.

I don't know about Kevin's transformation and how that affects SE (what an interesting concept, although putting that to Pressure Point would be better), but Carmilla causes Poison with her normal attack, so maybe that has something to do with removing Berserk.  But knowing how much you know, you must have counted that for your factor.  Hmm.  But based on what I can tell, Berserk SE isn't being canceled when I simply get hit (phyical attack or screen freezing skill).  If you have more detail, I'd love to know -- I can only test things by applying and literally seeing what effect it has, but you can actually see the codes and understand.

Just for fun, try applying poison to Lugar or Heath.

Holy crap.  I was deader than dead (against Lugar).  They were defiling my corpse so badly.  Are all small bosses like that, or just those two?  Any regular enemies that do that?

I'm not sure what you're saying. I don't have progressively increasing prices. They are static.

Oh man, it seems so.  I thought I remember seeing the price increasing as the game progressed.  It must've been another game or something.  I played so many different hacks, I'm confused.

Btw, Stone Cloud is nowhere near as deadly as I thought it would be (against you).  Apparently, the petrify effect can't actually kill you, since it only halves your current hp (after the raw damage from the spell).  So if you can survive the initial damage, then you'll survive Stone Cloud.  I'm not sure if other enemies can damage you while you're petrified though.

[Mr X]

1) Demon Breath is used very often by enemies/bosses by that point in game, and I wanted to weaken the effect of Counter Magic (it can't reflect NE skills)

Counter Magic can reflect so many spells, having one more be reflected or less wouldn't matter much. I would rather change the effect of counter magic entirely. Anti-Magic serves for that purpose, especially multi-target anti-magic you gave evil shaman. I don't remember beyond Great Demon using it, Archdemon and maybeee Blaxk Rabite

I focused on enemies making YOU weak with that attack, and Power Down is more deadly to you than Mind Down

Mind Down is just as valuable. Inflicting more damage with various spells. It invalidates the Evil Shaman class, unless she became a physical attacker or something. She benefits a lot more from the mind down effect. Same for many enemies too, but not a whole lot of them use it anyway (of the top of my head, Great Demon, Black Rabite maybe can't remember for sure if it used it, Archdemon in his second phase).

I didn't want Carlie DD to be too much stronger than Carlie DL (mostly because Black Curse can be bought if you used Item Shop patch and used Carlie D classes)

But specters eye can be bought for cheap too in black market. Necromancer is def better than Evil Shaman in every way it even has her own anti-magic, which isn't multi target bur factor in she has black curse too, you don't even need it anyway.

4) Carlie is supposed to be a supporter, therefore she shouldn't make enemies weaker to her spells

She's a supporter with a lot of summons in her DD class, it varies from class. Mage+supporter maybe. And she would still be a supporter keeping the spell as originally intended wont change that, if power down effect is a supporting spell so is mind down effect.

Angela DD would be better without her change?  Are you sure about that?  Angela DD is undoubtedly the most powerful of all Angela classes, despite her lack of Lv3 spells.  And how would vanilla Angela DD be better anyways?  Angela DD sucked ass in vanilla.  She couldn't even MT her Lv2 spells, and had no Lv3 spell, nor any buff spells.

For sure she would be better if Demon Breath had mind down effect in a party with carlie. She benefits a lot more from that than power down.

Yeah... I wish I could up the item price as the game progresses, like what Sin of Mana did.  Really, items are pathetically cheap by the time you get to... I don't know, Diorre.  But that's most likely something too complicated for my skills

I stock up on Poto Oil, Drake Scales, sahagin scales for eaely game, and for god beasts if I lack a saber user simply buy claws (by the time I class chanhe to swordmaster or sage let's say it wont matter as they still need a good level ups to multi-target their sabers, so I use claws to help them buff party faster)

That's specifically why praetarius5018 put multiple versions in his patch.  Pick and choose.  Just choose the earlier version before he put the cast time fix.  At worst, choose v1.2, as that fixes only the well known bugs.

Happened on an very early version too

[praetarius5018]

but Carmilla causes Poison with her normal attack, so maybe that has something to do with removing Berserk.  But knowing how much you know, you must have counted that for your factor.

He didn't get poisoned even after several hits. I might have removed that from the test rom or only the carmilla queen is poisonous.

Holy crap.  I was deader than dead (against Lugar).  They were defiling my corpse so badly.  Are all small bosses like that, or just those two?  Any regular enemies that do that?

Tbh, I've no clue why that's even there.
Though, I think it is related to why silver knights or priests spam heal light/tinkle rain multiple times when the relevant conditions are met.

Btw, Stone Cloud is nowhere near as deadly as I thought it would be (against you).  Apparently, the petrify effect can't actually kill you, since it only halves your current hp (after the raw damage from the spell).  So if you can survive the initial damage, then you'll survive Stone Cloud.  I'm not sure if other enemies can damage you while you're petrified though.

They still count as dead.

Happened on an very early version too

It happens as early as v0.0, a.k.a. vanilla.

[Mr X]

He didn't get poisoned even after several hits. I might have removed that from the test rom or only the carmilla queen is poisonous.

Tbh, I've no clue why that's even there.
Though, I think it is related to why silver knights or priests spam heal light/tinkle rain multiple times when the relevant conditions are met.

They still count as dead.

It happens as early as v0.0, a.k.a. vanilla.

You are most likely right, it's just I couldn't get to make that bug pop up in vanilla or even vanilla with hmsong patches only, even while playing the game normally (some spellcasting, buffs, debuffs, heal light, reapply buffs when needed, recovery items, silence or debuff some mobs etc). While it happens in both bugfix and sin of mana every run I do at least once if not more than that, bugfix is more surprising as I still simply play the game as I played it before, for that to happen too.

[soul_knight]

You are most likely right, it's just I couldn't get to make that bug pop up in vanilla or even vanilla with hmsong patches only, even while playing the game normally (some spellcasting, buffs, debuffs, heal light, reapply buffs when needed, recovery items, silence or debuff some mobs etc). While it happens in both bugfix and sin of mana every run I do at least once if not more than that, bugfix is more surprising as I still simply play the game as I played it before, for that to happen too.

Dude, if you don't want to use particular patch, then don't use it.  Hackers are simply providing you with options.  You can choose to not use that option.  If the freezing bothers you, then don't use the bugfix.  But if you're not using the bugfix, then you should play ToM.  I hear it's got a better translation.  Me, I personally find far more pluses than minuses from the bugfix, so I use it.

[Mr X]

Dude, if you don't want to use particular patch, then don't use it.  Hackers are simply providing you with options.  You can choose to not use that option.  If the freezing bothers you, then don't use the bugfix.  But if you're not using the bugfix, then you should play ToM.  I hear it's got a better translation.  Me, I personally find far more pluses than minuses from the bugfix, so I use it.

I am simply providing my experience as a player.

[hmsong]

Counter Magic can reflect so many spells, having one more be reflected or less wouldn't matter much. I would rather change the effect of counter magic entirely. Anti-Magic serves for that purpose, especially multi-target anti-magic you gave evil shaman. I don't remember beyond Great Demon using it, Archdemon and maybeee Blaxk Rabite

First of all, I can't modify Counter Magic.  I wish I can modify now many times it can defend you (similar to Secret of Mana), but I don't know how.  And indeed, Demon Breath is used by those 3 enemies (plus Zable-Fahr).  And that's a lot, because most skills outside of the 8 element magic isn't used as much.  But there's more.  Fire is 2nd worst element by that time in game (Dark is the worst, obviously), because it is effective against 0 enemies, but 5 enemies defend against it (2 bosses weak to it, 3 bosses defend it).  That is, not counting enemies that defend against all elements.  Btw, water is the 2nd best element by that time (5 enemies and 3 bosses are weak to it, and 1 enemy and 2 bosses defend it).

Mind Down is just as valuable. Inflicting more damage with various spells. It invalidates the Evil Shaman class, unless she became a physical attacker or something. She benefits a lot more from the mind down effect. Same for many enemies too, but not a whole lot of them use it anyway (of the top of my head, Great Demon, Black Rabite maybe can't remember for sure if it used it, Archdemon in his second phase).

Okay, first of all, Evil Shaman already has a M.Def down skill to make her spells more effective -- Flame Breath.  Also, one of SD3's primary concern is that your melee is too powerful relative to spells, so having a common spell that weakens that makes sense.

But specters eye can be bought for cheap too in black market. Necromancer is def better than Evil Shaman in every way it even has her own anti-magic, which isn't multi target bur factor in she has black curse too, you don't even need it anyway.

Carlie DL and DD are like apple and orange.  They're both pretty good, but in different ways (the point of "Balance").  Carlie DL is meant to save/support, while Carlie DD is meant to save/attack.  I just figured people like to attack, esp since she can do some of the debuffs too.  That's why I had to give DL some cool skills, such as ability to absorb MP and revive fallen allies (albeit very low HP).  But that's just my humble opinion.

But okay, let's say that DD is weaker than DL.  What I know for certain is that if Demon Breath has fire element, then Carlie DD will be even weaker.  And if Demon Breath has Mind Down instead, then it'll be redundant (because of Flame Breath).  I don't want that.

Happened on an very early version too

Based on what I tested a long time ago, v1.2 never had any issues (it's what I used to use a long time ago).  It might not fix as much as the later versions nor have cool gimmicks, but it's WAY better than vanilla.  I think the cast time fix was applied in v1.8 or something, so just use the version right before that, and you're gold.  If you want the fix with none of the new gimmicks, then use v1.2.  Either way, you're not gonna come across the freezing issue, at least, no more than vanilla.

He didn't get poisoned even after several hits. I might have removed that from the test rom or only the carmilla queen is poisonous.

No idea then.  In any case, please try Berserk as a regular SE against you, and see if there's some sort of flaw.  I'm not seeing anything, but my vision is rather... limited.

They still count as dead.

Then I'm glad that it's not MT.  That would suck.  Insta game over.

[praetarius5018]

No idea then.  In any case, please try Berserk as a regular SE against you, and see if there's some sort of flaw.  I'm not seeing anything, but my vision is rather... limited.

Yeah, discard that then. They do inflict poison but for some reason it didn't trigger against Kevin.
Tried again against some swords and the status stayed.

[soul_knight]

Okay.  I used HxD and found 10D0A1, and changed 73 to 00.  The petrify status gets inflicted indeed from Stone cloud which results in halving the current hp halved in addition to the initial damage, which is what it's supposed to do, but for some reason, the inflicted character can still move and attack.  He shouldn't be able to move.  He turns grey and you can't control him, unless you were already in control of that character.  So basically the same as berserk, except he's grey.  This happens with Land Umber and Death Jester, at least.  Uhh, help?

[praetarius5018]

Yeah, not really surprised something like this would happen. Good thing I won't look at this further.

[soul_knight]

Yeah, not really surprised something like this would happen. Good thing I won't look at this further.

Aww.  That's a shame.

[praetarius5018]

The most you'd get out of me in that regard would be a "fix" that changes the popup damage to a constant 999 so the victim stops moving that way.

[soul_knight]

The most you'd get out of me in that regard would be a "fix" that changes the popup damage to a constant 999 so the victim stops moving that way.

Yeesh.  Oh well.  I guess the incomplete solution you gave is still better than nothing, hopefully with no weird side effect.  I know I know, I shouldn't count on it.

[praetarius5018]

Uh, you've already seen weird side effects. And to make it even better, the living statues don't even count as dead.

edit: wanna know what's even BETTER?
Petrify doesn't deal exactly HP/2 damage but HP/2 + rand(0..2) and there's no logic to kill a character with 0 HP. So if you survive Stone Cloud with 1-2 HP and get a high roll on that rand you'll be alive at 0 HP.

[hmsong]

Okay.  I used HxD and found 10D0A1, and changed 73 to 00.  The petrify status gets inflicted indeed from Stone cloud which results in halving the current hp halved in addition to the initial damage, which is what it's supposed to do, but for some reason, the inflicted character can still move and attack.  He shouldn't be able to move.  He turns grey and you can't control him, unless you were already in control of that character.  So basically the same as berserk, except he's grey.  This happens with Land Umber and Death Jester, at least.  Uhh, help?

You beat me to it.  I tested it and yeah, I got the same result.  I only tried with Deathjester, because he uses it most often, but I'm guessing that's true for the other 3 bosses (Land Umber, Black Rabite, and Arch Demon).

Yeah, not really surprised something like this would happen. Good thing I won't look at this further.

Dang it.  So close, but so far...

Uh, you've already seen weird side effects. And to make it even better, the living statues don't even count as dead.

edit: wanna know what's even BETTER?
Petrify doesn't deal exactly HP/2 damage but HP/2 + rand(0..2) and there's no logic to kill a character with 0 HP. So if you survive Stone Cloud with 1-2 HP and get a high roll on that rand you'll be alive at 0 HP.

Wait, what?  So after becoming the living statue, you can just fight as much as you want without having to worry about dying?  Or is it ONLY from Stone Cloud's petrify damage?  Because if it's the latter, then that's probably never gonna happen -- the initial Stone Cloud has to put you less than 4 HP, where the petrify will take effect and halve the remaining HP (+alpha), which may put you to 0 HP.

Still, that's funny as hell.  Black Rabite will keep attacking you with lethal attacks, and it won't know why you're not dying -- "Why won't you diiiiieeeee!!!"

[bmathew]

Hey, can you make the magic walnut restore more than 20 mp?  It's so little.

[praetarius5018]

It stays at 0 HP and the next hit is lethal.

[Mr X]

@hmsong when I press to check the description of "Mr Death God" spell icon in the menu screen the game freezes.

I never even check them but did that by accident, might want to check that out. Unsure if that happend also with other spells you added/tweaked.

[hmsong]

Hey, can you make the magic walnut restore more than 20 mp?  It's so little.

While I CAN change it, the description of the item (in the ring menu) will not match the effect.  So no, I will not change it.

@hmsong when I press to check the description of "Mr Death God" spell icon in the menu screen the game freezes.

I never even check them but did that by accident, might want to check that out. Unsure if that happend also with other spells you added/tweaked.

Hmm.  I'm not seeing the freeze.  What specific ROM and patches did you use?  I assume you used the typical (and only, as far as I know) fan translation if you used SD3.

Is anyone else experiencing the same freeze?

[bmathew]

While I CAN change it, the description of the item (in the ring menu) will not match the effect.  So no, I will not change it.

Bah.  Well, in that case, can you make one of the seeds restore more MP?  There's not enough MP restoring items.