Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion

[hmsong]

Say, for the recent new skill "Grand Slam" (which is just a Lv2 ST), I don't like that name, because it's already being used by one of the bosses.  So I'm thinking of giving it a different unused name.  What do you think is the best name, among the following?

1. Sky Attack (90)
2. Revenge Spike (99)
3. Bloody Axe (AC)
4. Whirlwind (DA)

That is, assuming none of those are actually used by any of the enemies.  I don't think they are.

[soul_knight]

Say, for the recent new skill "Grand Slam" (which is just a Lv2 ST), I don't like that name, because it's already being used by one of the bosses.  So I'm thinking of giving it a different unused name.  What do you think is the best name, among the following?

1. Sky Attack (90)
2. Revenge Spike (99)
3. Bloody Axe (AC)
4. Whirlwind (DA)

That is, assuming none of those are actually used by any of the enemies.  I don't think they are.

They all have some sort of problem.  1, 2, and 3 doesn't really fit, as there's nothing that resembles "sky" nor "revenge" nor "axe" in that attack, and I think Evil Sword uses an ability called Whirlwind.

[hmsong]

They all have some sort of problem.  1, 2, and 3 doesn't really fit, as there's nothing that resembles "sky" nor "revenge" nor "axe" in that attack, and I think Evil Sword uses an ability called Whirlwind.

1~3 may be weird (1 is sort of okay, but still far from matching the animation), but 4 actually isn't used by anyone, as far as I know.  Evil Sword uses "Whirlwind Sword" and "Gale", but not "Whirlwind".  And Whirlwind's default animation is that of Armor Knight's Whirlwind Sword.  As far as I know, only 2 enemies use that -- Armor Knight and Darkshine Knight.  Based on the skill's order, I thought Dangaard may use it, but it doesn't seem like it (as far as I know).

EDIT:  Better Monsters and Class Balance are updated.  I seriously need some testers, esp for Better Monsters.  Play the game with it and see if you can break it (crash, accessing things early, plot error, etc).

[bmathew]

praetarius5018, hi, I'm new here, so perhaps you already answered this already.  Could you perhaps make a bugfix patch for the official Trials of Mana rom?  I'm sure the new features (like double hitter getting powered down) may not be possible, but maybe just the "bugfixes"?  Like agility working, luck working, kevin bugs, level up bugs, etc.

[soul_knight]

@hmsong

Hey, didn't Angela LL's Double Spell able to ST?  Looking at the log, you got rid of that at some point.  Why did you do that?

[joje]

Thanks for the patches

[hmsong]

@hmsong

Hey, didn't Angela LL's Double Spell able to ST?  Looking at the log, you got rid of that at some point.  Why did you do that?

The original Double Spell was MT-only spell.  I simply included the ST option with the new animation.  But the ST spell animation had 1 frame glitch screen, and the thunder part only did half thunder.  I didn't like that.  In addition, "Double Spell" is called "Doppelganger" in ToM, meaning ST animation not having Angela duplicate is too weird.  And I don't think her not having the ST option is too much of loss, since it's a non-elemental spell (and therefore no one can element-defend the spell).

These will most likely be my final versions.  I did everything I can do, and I ran out of ideas.

Thanks for the patches

You're welcome.

[lexluthermiester]

I did everything I can do, and I ran out of ideas.

And we appreciate you! Great work IMHO!

[Mr X]

@hmsong some ideas I wanted to give, if I remember correct Hawk's spells are AGI based spells (except Wanderer's Poison Bubble), how about in order to make speed up useful, that spell boosts spell power of AGI based spells?

So Speed Up - boosts agility based spells power and evasion (the defensive stat to decrease damage from such spells), Speed Down - decreases the effect of agility based spells and also lowers evasion (stat used to defend against such spells). For defense you can take the characters evasion stat for defending against such spells so Duran's high evasion shields can be useful.

Energy Ball - since power up/down effect got lowered (rightfully), hoe about making Energy Ball be like an upgraded power up boosting attack more?

Magic Shield - boosting Magic Def and Physical Defense

Counter Magic - Instead of reflect how about a support dpell that boosts Spell Power more than Mind Up does, similar concept as Energy Ball


Any reason also btw in the class balabce - equipment patch why all accessories can be equiped by any character? Do they have different effects?

And I wanted to apply a bunch of your patches into a single rom is there any specitic order I need to apply them? Wanted to try better monster, starting stat, less grinding, useful energy ball, and some of the clsdd balance patches, which order do you recommend to apply them or it doesn't matter which order I do?

[Mr X]

Another idea I had in mind:

Since you want to use the idea of dark classes having more power oriented, how about let's say Lise as Light-Light (Vanadise class) is physically the weakest of her classes but learns to multi-target spells that help buff spell caster oriented teams fast. While Star Lancer is physically a bit stronger than her (Light->Dark), so she learns to multi-target spells that buffs physical oriented parties fast.

Similar logic with Dragon Master, lower attack than Fenrir Knight and Star Lancer (Dragobmaster is Dark->Light), learns multi target debuffs that weaken enemies defenses against spells (spell caster oriented party), while Fenrir Knight is Lise's physically strongest class (Dark-Dark) while learning to multi target debuff enemies stats beneficial physical oriented teams.

For Duran you could use a similar logic:

- His light classes offer greater defense compared to his dark classes, with Paladin (Light-Light) class providing more defense to magic than tp physical attacks while Lord (Light->Dark) more defense to physical attacks (and agility based spells) than Paladin, with Lord even gaining the shield eith the highest evasion.
His Swordmaster class (Dark->Light) having more noticably attack power than his light classes but weaker than duelist, in exchange for that providing support with saber spells in an more effective manner, while Duelist gains a lot more attack power than Swordmaster and strongest level 3 tech in the game to make it true to the in-game description. If you want to stay true to ingame description perhaps have Paladin's Flashy Sword be a light elemental tech damage. Applying and enforcing logic from in-game decsription would also be a good way without convoluting too many ideas.

For someone like Angela - Her Magician (basic) class learns 6 m elemental level 1 spells. Sorceress class (Light) learns additionally Saint Beam and 4 main elemental level 2 Spells, while Delvar (Dark) learns Dark Force. From here:

Grand Divina (Light-Light) - How about Double Spell, being a non elemental spell, has the spell power of two Thunderstorm, Lava Wave and Ice Smash combined, three spells shown in the spell animation. Being Light-Light means she gains the Saint-Beam too, she has higher physical defense but lower magic defense, same spell power as Archmage. She doesn't learn to multi-target the 4 main elemental spells except Saint Beam
Archmage (Light->Dark) - Using in-game descriptions she's the master of the four main elemental spells, so she learns to multi-target those spells but not Saint Beam. And learns Rainbow Dust (how about making this spell be like a weakness to non elemental enemies)
Runemaster (Dark->Light) - Level 3 spells with status infliction should be her speciality, and learns Death Spell, Dark Force from Delvar class remains single target, might wanna giver her Poison Bubble and Lunatic too to make her a master of status infliction/level 3 spells, she has lower magic defense and physical defense to Angela's light classes
Magus - Learns to Multi-target Dark Force, learns Half Vanish, Iceicle (from Fiegmund), Lava Wave or Heat Beam (used by Xan Bie), Learns Counter Magic (using above Counter Magic version as mean to super buff her spell power), Ancient (strongest spell power in the game, non elemental), this class has the highest spell power among her classes but again has less magic defense and physical defense than her light classes

Some similar ideas with other classes as I didn't want to convolute all in one post, just wanted to give you some suggestions and ideas

[hmsong]

@hmsong some ideas I wanted to give, if I remember correct Hawk's spells are AGI based spells (except Wanderer's Poison Bubble), how about in order to make speed up useful, that spell boosts spell power of AGI based spells?

So Speed Up - boosts agility based spells power and evasion (the defensive stat to decrease damage from such spells), Speed Down - decreases the effect of agility based spells and also lowers evasion (stat used to defend against such spells). For defense you can take the characters evasion stat for defending against such spells so Duran's high evasion shields can be useful.

Energy Ball - since power up/down effect got lowered (rightfully), hoe about making Energy Ball be like an upgraded power up boosting attack more?

Magic Shield - boosting Magic Def and Physical Defense

Counter Magic - Instead of reflect how about a support dpell that boosts Spell Power more than Mind Up does, similar concept as Energy Ball

First, thanks for your input.  I always enjoy new ideas, although for the most part, I lack the skills to actually apply the ideas into reality (such as what's about to happen).

For Speed Up, Energy Ball, and Counter Magic, I'm afraid I lack the skills to make that.  I actually wanted to have Speed Up do exactly as what you said, but I have no idea where to even start.

For Magic Shield, my patch already does that (plus Evasion Up).

Any reason also btw in the class balabce - equipment patch why all accessories can be equiped by any character? Do they have different effects?

Some accessories provide Status Effect immunity (such as Cobra Earring).  I wanted all characters to have access to those, given that the character of the accessory is in your party.  In addition, all characters have at least one accessory that gives immunity to a SE.

And I wanted to apply a bunch of your patches into a single rom is there any specitic order I need to apply them? Wanted to try better monster, starting stat, less grinding, useful energy ball, and some of the clsdd balance patches, which order do you recommend to apply them or it doesn't matter which order I do?

Many of them do, so I specifically made it so that if you apply the patches in spelling order, you're good to go.  It's much easier than to have a ton of instructions.

Another idea I had in mind:

Since you want to use the idea of dark classes having more power oriented, how about let's say Lise as Light-Light (Vanadise class) is physically the weakest of her classes but learns to multi-target spells that help buff spell caster oriented teams fast. While Star Lancer is physically a bit stronger than her (Light->Dark), so she learns to multi-target spells that buffs physical oriented parties fast.

Similar logic with Dragon Master, lower attack than Fenrir Knight and Star Lancer (Dragobmaster is Dark->Light), learns multi target debuffs that weaken enemies defenses against spells (spell caster oriented party), while Fenrir Knight is Lise's physically strongest class (Dark-Dark) while learning to multi target debuff enemies stats beneficial physical oriented teams.

For Duran you could use a similar logic:

- His light classes offer greater defense compared to his dark classes, with Paladin (Light-Light) class providing more defense to magic than tp physical attacks while Lord (Light->Dark) more defense to physical attacks (and agility based spells) than Paladin, with Lord even gaining the shield eith the highest evasion.
His Swordmaster class (Dark->Light) having more noticably attack power than his light classes but weaker than duelist, in exchange for that providing support with saber spells in an more effective manner, while Duelist gains a lot more attack power than Swordmaster and strongest level 3 tech in the game to make it true to the in-game description. If you want to stay true to ingame description perhaps have Paladin's Flashy Sword be a light elemental tech damage. Applying and enforcing logic from in-game decsription would also be a good way without convoluting too many ideas.

For someone like Angela - Her Magician (basic) class learns 6 m elemental level 1 spells. Sorceress class (Light) learns additionally Saint Beam and 4 main elemental level 2 Spells, while Delvar (Dark) learns Dark Force. From here:

Grand Divina (Light-Light) - How about Double Spell, being a non elemental spell, has the spell power of two Thunderstorm, Lava Wave and Ice Smash combined, three spells shown in the spell animation. Being Light-Light means she gains the Saint-Beam too, she has higher physical defense but lower magic defense, same spell power as Archmage. She doesn't learn to multi-target the 4 main elemental spells except Saint Beam
Archmage (Light->Dark) - Using in-game descriptions she's the master of the four main elemental spells, so she learns to multi-target those spells but not Saint Beam. And learns Rainbow Dust (how about making this spell be like a weakness to non elemental enemies)
Runemaster (Dark->Light) - Level 3 spells with status infliction should be her speciality, and learns Death Spell, Dark Force from Delvar class remains single target, might wanna giver her Poison Bubble and Lunatic too to make her a master of status infliction/level 3 spells, she has lower magic defense and physical defense to Angela's light classes
Magus - Learns to Multi-target Dark Force, learns Half Vanish, Iceicle (from Fiegmund), Lava Wave or Heat Beam (used by Xan Bie), Learns Counter Magic (using above Counter Magic version as mean to super buff her spell power), Ancient (strongest spell power in the game, non elemental), this class has the highest spell power among her classes but again has less magic defense and physical defense than her light classes

Some similar ideas with other classes as I didn't want to convolute all in one post, just wanted to give you some suggestions and ideas

The intent of the Class Balance patch is to make things as similar as possible to the original game, but at the same time, give the weaker classes better things to give some more "umph".  In addition, to make the 1st class change more skills, as you'd be spending most time in that class.

For example, I could give L classes weaker p.attack power for the girls (for the guys, L classes already have weaker power), but the original game specifically made things so that girls of L classes have the higher attack power (except for Carlie).  In addition, Lise's stats (base, L and LL) affect the ENEMY's stats, meaning any change made to her changes things for the enemies.  I didn't want to mess with that too much, because it would affect things way too much in ways I may not be able to predict.

I'm pretty sure the reason why you suggested your ideas is so that class shades would have some consistency.  I can understand that, and that was indeed one of my initial ideas.  But I ultimately decided against that, mainly because of Lise's stats affecting enemy's stats (most spells would do less damage against the enemies, which is not what I wanted).

As for Angela, let's cover one at a time.
- Your idea for 1st class change is the same as the original game.  The problem I had with her in the original game is that D class is severely underpowered as a result (she only learned 1 spell, which isn't even good because of its Dark element).  I really really didn't like that.  But at the same time, there are only 12 slots of spells that a character can have, so I had to change things around to make all classes (1st and 2nd class) useful.
- Double Spell having the power of Thunderstorm, Lava Wave, and Ice Smash is kinda hard, because that's not how the spell system's damage output works.  The spell damage output works like this -- [(INT multiplier + additional power) * buff] - (M.DEF * buff).  Thunderstorm has the power multiplier of 8 (of INT stat), Lava Wave has multiplier of 10, and Ice Smash has the multiplier of 6, so if I were to add them up, it'll be multiplier of whooping 24.  The upper limit of multiplier is 15 in the game.  And the default power of Double Spell already has that.  I simply changed the "additional power" slightly, to make it not so underpowered, relative to Ancient.
- Your idea of Runemaster would be unbelievably powerful.  All Lv3 spells + Poison Bubble + Death Spell?  Also, Angela doesn't have enough spell slots to learn those (+ 6 Lv1 spells + Dark Force + 4 Lv3 spells + Poison Bubble + Death Spell = 13 -- the limit is 12).  It's a different story if I can make the character "forget" or "replace" the learned skills, but I have no idea how to do that.

[Mr X]

First, thanks for your input.  I always enjoy new ideas, although for the most part, I lack the skills to actually apply the ideas into reality (such as what's about to happen).

For Speed Up, Energy Ball, and Counter Magic, I'm afraid I lack the skills to make that.  I actually wanted to have Speed Up do exactly as what you said, but I have no idea where to even start.

For Magic Shield, my patch already does that (plus Evasion Up).
Some accessories provide Status Effect immunity (such as Cobra Earring).  I wanted all characters to have access to those, given that the character of the accessory is in your party.  In addition, all characters have at least one accessory that gives immunity to a SE.
Many of them do, so I specifically made it so that if you apply the patches in spelling order, you're good to go.  It's much easier than to have a ton of instructions.
The intent of the Class Balance patch is to make things as similar as possible to the original game, but at the same time, give the weaker classes better things to give some more "umph".  In addition, to make the 1st class change more skills, as you'd be spending most time in that class.

For example, I could give L classes weaker p.attack power for the girls (for the guys, L classes already have weaker power), but the original game specifically made things so that girls of L classes have the higher attack power (except for Carlie).  In addition, Lise's stats (base, L and LL) affect the ENEMY's stats, meaning any change made to her changes things for the enemies.  I didn't want to mess with that too much, because it would affect things way too much in ways I may not be able to predict.

I'm pretty sure the reason why you suggested your ideas is so that class shades would have some consistency.  I can understand that, and that was indeed one of my initial ideas.  But I ultimately decided against that, mainly because of Lise's stats affecting enemy's stats (most spells would do less damage against the enemies, which is not what I wanted).

As for Angela, let's cover one at a time.
- Your idea for 1st class change is the same as the original game.  The problem I had with her in the original game is that D class is severely underpowered as a result (she only learned 1 spell, which isn't even good because of its Dark element).  I really really didn't like that.  But at the same time, there are only 12 slots of spells that a character can have, so I had to change things around to make all classes (1st and 2nd class) useful.
- Double Spell having the power of Thunderstorm, Lava Wave, and Ice Smash is kinda hard, because that's not how the spell system's damage output works.  The spell damage output works like this -- [(INT multiplier + additional power) * buff] - (M.DEF * buff).  Thunderstorm has the power multiplier of 8 (of INT stat), Lava Wave has multiplier of 10, and Ice Smash has the multiplier of 6, so if I were to add them up, it'll be multiplier of whooping 24.  The upper limit of multiplier is 15 in the game.  And the default power of Double Spell already has that.  I simply changed the "additional power" slightly, to make it not so underpowered, relative to Ancient.
- Your idea of Runemaster would be unbelievably powerful.  All Lv3 spells + Poison Bubble + Death Spell?  Also, Angela doesn't have enough spell slots to learn those (+ 6 Lv1 spells + Dark Force + 4 Lv3 spells + Poison Bubble + Death Spell = 13 -- the limit is 12).  It's a different story if I can make the character "forget" or "replace" the learned skills, but I have no idea how to do that.

Thanks for taking your time for the detailed input

I always sort of liked the idea of classes specializing around the strengths displayed in the in game menu of the character (the menu where you view their spell slots and get an overview), but enforce those strengths to be more or less on par in their own ways.

I see the existing problm with Lise and enemies using the same stats.

As for Double Spell, Ancient how about Double Spell staying non elemental while Ancient being actually a level 4 so to speak elemental spell (if it's possible to make spells stronger than Angela's level 3 spells), so let's say Ancient becomes a Fire or Earth elemental Level 4 spell, and with that logic making Rainbow Dust a level 4 Light elemental spell, while Double Spell stays non elemental.

I think Runemaster wouldn't be able to learn every status based spell anyway, so probably just Death Spell and the four main elemental level 3 spells should be the max. Tho Blaze Wall inflicts no status maybe replace that with Poison Bubble? With that in mind:

Sorceress only learns 4 level 2 main elemental spells, Grand Divina learns then Blaze Wall and Double Spell, meanwhile Archmage learns Saint Bwam (to multi target) and multi targets the 4 level 2 main elemental spells. And learns rainbow dust (would be cool if light elemental attribute gets added to this spell same with ancient to make them different from double spell). While Magus gimmick being learning forbidden spells, like ancient and spells that aren't owned by the 8 spirits being the logic.


Also have got to check the readme for some of your patches, not a huge fan of Bigieu having her weakness completely removed just because Koren and Heath are non elemental, I think that's one of the features that made her different from them, others being she's physical oriented (or a red mage), and is a monster cat, while the other two are more like true spell casters and are humans.

Is it possible also to lower the experience required slightly more than it already is in your patch? I kinda like the idea of playing the game with the majority of the classes being the final, iirc in the trials of mana remake you could start the quests for hunting the benevodons with final class changes ready. Thoughts on following the same logic?

[Mr X]

Not that big of a fan weapon/armor seeds also being moved so late in the game, at least I hope when those enemies frop the chest it's a guaranteed drop as there's 12 of them to upgrade, that's a lot only to be used for a little. I think they should be more spread out.

Unless they break stat cap past 300 or offer some bonus there's no reason to get them except the weapons and Duran's shields which do offer bonuses.

Edit:
By the time I got 12 seeds and used the cheat methods to get the desired item I wanted on the pots, I reached cap stat with level ups alone, only weapons offered a noticeable stat bonus. Some armor raised +1 magic defense but no physical defense as it was already 300, some not even 1, but  one point is worthless anyway unless it offers some other bonus which I couldn't identify in gameplay, otherwise I spent worthless time grinding in the final dungeon, for one boss fight, for no bonus (except weapons to an extend).

Tho maybe not that big of a deal for a lot of people, just my initial thoughts overall.

[hmsong]

As for Double Spell, Ancient how about Double Spell staying non elemental while Ancient being actually a level 4 so to speak elemental spell (if it's possible to make spells stronger than Angela's level 3 spells), so let's say Ancient becomes a Fire or Earth elemental Level 4 spell, and with that logic making Rainbow Dust a level 4 Light elemental spell, while Double Spell stays non elemental.

The problem with giving elements to the final Angela's spells (Ancient, Double Spell, Rainbow) is that they become unbelievably bad during the final battles, for at least one enemy in the group would resist/immune/absorb/reflect the element.  Not to mention that if the enemies use it, you can reflect them with Counter Magic (or the equivalent item).  Besides, those spells (minus Rainbow, for I made it into a MT invis spell) have much more power than the Lv3 spells.  See for yourself.

I think Runemaster wouldn't be able to learn every status based spell anyway, so probably just Death Spell and the four main elemental level 3 spells should be the max. Tho Blaze Wall inflicts no status maybe replace that with Poison Bubble? With that in mind:

Sorceress only learns 4 level 2 main elemental spells, Grand Divina learns then Blaze Wall and Double Spell, meanwhile Archmage learns Saint Bwam (to multi target) and multi targets the 4 level 2 main elemental spells. And learns rainbow dust (would be cool if light elemental attribute gets added to this spell same with ancient to make them different from double spell). While Magus gimmick being learning forbidden spells, like ancient and spells that aren't owned by the 8 spirits being the logic.

First of all, if I were to make Runemaster learn the 4 Lv3 spells and Death Spell, then I would have to make the D class only learn 1 spell (which is Dark Force), which brings back the same problem as before (remember, my goal was to make her D class a bit more useful).  In addition, Poison Bubble is too powerful to combine with other powerful spells, because it absorbs MP from the enemy (usually 30~40 per spell), meaning whichever class has Poison Bubble + powerful spells (ex: DeathSpell), would dominate the game with impunity.  That's throwing out the "balance" part of the patch.

Having said that, Magus having different "forbidden" spells sounds nice.  Not sure which one to give, since all other spells are... pathetically weaker than Ancient, and sometimes even weaker than the Lv2 spells.  Not to mention some enemy spells use STR to damage enemies (which would be very weak if Angela were to use it).  And once again, if I leave too many empty slots for Class 2, then D class would be too weak.

Also have got to check the readme for some of your patches, not a huge fan of Bigieu having her weakness completely removed just because Koren and Heath are non elemental, I think that's one of the features that made her different from them, others being she's physical oriented (or a red mage), and is a monster cat, while the other two are more like true spell casters and are humans.

Bigieu having her weakness meant that she would die EXTREMELY fast against melee attacks, due to sabers being available in the black market.  I didn't like that.  Bigieu already was the weakest of them all (after bugfix patch -- use the Def Up items from the Black Market to make her pathetic), and I didn't want to make her weaker.  That's why I had to raise her attack power.

Is it possible also to lower the experience required slightly more than it already is in your patch? I kinda like the idea of playing the game with the majority of the classes being the final, iirc in the trials of mana remake you could start the quests for hunting the benevodons with final class changes ready. Thoughts on following the same logic?

Hmm.  Then I would have to make the ??? Seeds available a lot sooner, which would conflict with my other patches.  It's a different story if I were to make the whole thing into one giant patch (similar to what Sin of Mana did), but I don't want to do that.  The bugfix patch already reduces the grinding, so if you combine that with my Less Grinding patch, it would reduce the grinding by a lot.  But I get what you're saying.  More brainstorming is required.

Not that big of a fan weapon/armor seeds also being moved so late in the game, at least I hope when those enemies frop the chest it's a guaranteed drop as there's 12 of them to upgrade, that's a lot only to be used for a little. I think they should be more spread out.

Unless they break stat cap past 300 or offer some bonus there's no reason to get them except the weapons and Duran's shields which do offer bonuses.

Edit:
By the time I got 12 seeds and used the cheat methods to get the desired item I wanted on the pots, I reached cap stat with level ups alone, only weapons offered a noticeable stat bonus. Some armor raised +1 magic defense but no physical defense as it was already 300, some not even 1, but  one point is worthless anyway unless it offers some other bonus which I couldn't identify in gameplay, otherwise I spent worthless time grinding in the final dungeon, for one boss fight, for no bonus (except weapons to an extend).

Tho maybe not that big of a deal for a lot of people, just my initial thoughts overall.

"being moved so late in the game"?  I don't think I moved it.  They're available just as soon as the original game.  I think.

Yeah, vanilla final armors are kinda pointless.  My Class Balance tried to make it so that they'd have more impact (accessory raises the M.Def by at least 5), but the cap made it impossible to make helmet and armor all that useful.  Luckily, bugfix patch made it so that the def can go past the cap (although only at half the rate).  So that's something.

As for the Weapon/Armor Seeds, the Better Monster patch made things so that almost all enemies in the final dungeon (the 2nd part) have the possibility to drop Weapon/Armor Seeds.  That way, you don't have to cherry pick a specific enemy, and just go for it (Carmilla Queen, Death Machine, Gold Unicorn, and Great Demon have the highest chance of dropping the Weapon/Armor Seed -- they seem to be the last to die in random battles).  I'm not sure if that's better or worse for the veterans, but I figured it's better for the newbies, since they don't have to look up which enemies drop the item and thereby save that specific enemy for last.

[soul_knight]

For example, I could give L classes weaker p.attack power for the girls (for the guys, L classes already have weaker power), but the original game specifically made things so that girls of L classes have the higher attack power (except for Carlie).  In addition, Lise's stats (base, L and LL) affect the ENEMY's stats, meaning any change made to her changes things for the enemies.  I didn't want to mess with that too much, because it would affect things way too much in ways I may not be able to predict.

Can't you switch things so that Lise's D classes have higher attack power?  I mean, you already gave Lise higher attack power than vanilla (Lise's power was 18-20, but your balance patch made them all have 20-21).  And they all have same Def.  Int and Spi affects magic attack and magic defense respectively, so I don't know how that'll work if switched.

As for Double Spell, Ancient how about Double Spell staying non elemental while Ancient being actually a level 4 so to speak elemental spell (if it's possible to make spells stronger than Angela's level 3 spells), so let's say Ancient becomes a Fire or Earth elemental Level 4 spell, and with that logic making Rainbow Dust a level 4 Light elemental spell, while Double Spell stays non elemental.

I wouldn't want the final spells to have any elements.  I mean, the game already lacks non-element spells, so having them remain non element seems necessary.  Esp Ancient.  And Rainbow being holy element doesn't make sense, since if you look at the animation, it uses the fire/water/wind/earth spirits.

First of all, if I were to make Runemaster learn the 4 Lv3 spells and Death Spell, then I would have to make the D class only learn 1 spell (which is Dark Force), which brings back the same problem as before (remember, my goal was to make her D class a bit more useful).  In addition, Poison Bubble is too powerful to combine with other powerful spells, because it absorbs MP from the enemy (usually 30~40 per spell), meaning whichever class has Poison Bubble + powerful spells (ex: DeathSpell), would dominate the game with impunity.  That's throwing out the "balance" part of the patch.

If you think making her D class learning only one spell is bad for class 1, then how about making it MT?  That'll put her in a different/unique situation, no?  It may be only 1 spell, but it can clear the entire room, assuming enemies don't have Dark defense (I think most enemies in the God Beast dungeons have no defense against Dark, except in the Moon dungeon).

And her LD is already the most powerful class, because she has Fire 3 spell, which lowers enemy's m.def, and she has Poison Bubble, which is very powerful and absorbs MP.  And if necessary, you can just buy all the Specter's Eye to use Anti Magic against the target, which disables all element defense.

[hmsong]

Can't you switch things so that Lise's D classes have higher attack power?  I mean, you already gave Lise higher attack power than vanilla (Lise's power was 18-20, but your balance patch made them all have 20-21).  And they all have same Def.  Int and Spi affects magic attack and magic defense respectively, so I don't know how that'll work if switched.

Hmm.  I suppose I can, but then that'll make Lise LL to be worse than she already is.  I mean, Lise LL in the current state is already worse than LD, but if I make her with worse attack power, then she'll be even worse.  This needs more feedback from other people (and I need to think a bit more).  If no one is particularly interested, then there's no point is such drastic change.

If you think making her D class learning only one spell is bad for class 1, then how about making it MT?  That'll put her in a different/unique situation, no?  It may be only 1 spell, but it can clear the entire room, assuming enemies don't have Dark defense (I think most enemies in the God Beast dungeons have no defense against Dark, except in the Moon dungeon).

Hmm.  I never thought about that.  I think it'll still be worse than L by a lot (because other Lv2 spells will go to L side).  If MT against the mob is needed, then you have Lv1 spells.  And MT Dark Force is no better against the bosses anyways.  Hmm.

I really wish there was a non-element INT/PIE spell that's not too weak nor too powerful that fits with Angela D theme (so no summon, as she's not a summoner).  I can't think of any.

And her LD is already the most powerful class, because she has Fire 3 spell, which lowers enemy's m.def, and she has Poison Bubble, which is very powerful and absorbs MP.  And if necessary, you can just buy all the Specter's Eye to use Anti Magic against the target, which disables all element defense.

Logically, Poison Bubble by itself isn't all that useful, because Magic Walnut is dirt cheap by that point in game (and Magic Walnut has no cast time).  That's why I put Blaze Wall with her, to make her somewhat useful.  But if it's combined with Death Spell or some other high-cost-high-damage spells, then it'll be nuts.

[Mr X]

I wouldn't want the final spells to have any elements.  I mean, the game already lacks non-element spells, so having them remain non element seems necessary.  Esp Ancient.  And Rainbow being holy element doesn't make sense, since if you look at the animation, it uses the fire/water/wind/earth spirits.

The problem with that it makes them the same spell with just a different animation, ancient freezing the screen the longest, that'a the only difference.

And I thought light spell because:
1) It's probably easier to attach one element instead if all four, but if hmsong can do that then cool. Or other alternative make non elemental enemies be weak to rainbow dust.
2) In case those are difficult then the next alternative being having an alternative level 3 light spell that's multi target which wisp lacks the equivalent of blaze wall, death spell, stone cloud etc., if it's easier than the other above mentioned options

Otherwise if all 3 remain non elemental there's no difference to what these spells do, only animation changes.

[soul_knight]

I really wish there was a non-element INT/PIE spell that's not too weak nor too powerful that fits with Angela D theme (so no summon, as she's not a summoner).  I can't think of any.

Aren't there some enemy spells that do n/e damage?  I remember you telling me that most god beast unique magic is n/e.

The problem with that it makes them the same spell with just a different animation, ancient freezing the screen the longest, that'a the only difference.

And I thought light spell because:
1) It's probably easier to attach one element instead if all four, but if hmsong can do that then cool. Or other alternative make non elemental enemies be weak to rainbow dust.
2) In case those are difficult then the next alternative being having an alternative level 3 light spell that's multi target which wisp lacks the equivalent of blaze wall, death spell, stone cloud etc., if it's easier than the other above mentioned options

Otherwise if all 3 remain non elemental there's no difference to what these spells do, only animation changes.

I think Rainbow Dust is now a MT buff spell (not a very useful one, due to its time running out so quickly).  So it's between Double Spell and Ancient.  And I think Ancient is simply stronger, similar to how Explode is stronger than Fireball.  Not entirely sure about that, but the MP cost is different, so I assume so.

[Mr X]

Aren't there some enemy spells that do n/e damage?  I remember you telling me that most god beast unique magic is n/e.

I think Rainbow Dust is now a MT buff spell (not a very useful one, due to its time running out so quickly).  So it's between Double Spell and Ancient.  And I think Ancient is simply stronger, similar to how Explode is stronger than Fireball.  Not entirely sure about that, but the MP cost is different, so I assume so.

Yeah my mistake rainbow dust in his modification gives transshape/invisibility effect on all 3 characters, iirc that effect is slightly more useful than it was in vanilla.

Tho I wont mind keeping double spell and ancient as non elemental tbh too much, simply offered a different alternative if he ever decided to modify spells. Maybe the lught equivalent of pevel 3 spell that's multi-target, maybe make double spell and rainbow dust as multi elemental spells, or some supportive spells but the way they are it's not that big of a deal for me.

The only time I ever use them anyway is on mob cleaning but even then I tend to use their weakness and snipe them if I have a mage while physical attackers take care of other but it depends on group pf enemy mobs too for that, for bosses I don't use them, if facing one that has no weakness or no available spell to use for his weakness and decide to use some spell, mind up+mind down+element day bonus is more effective in damage per time imo in a boss fight

Not a dealbreaker for me

[Mr X]

@hmsong do you have some list or anything of what each equipment or accesory protects you against, instead of having to try each accessory individually? And what does the wound status effect refer to (the shield that's supposed to protect you from)?