Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion

[soul_knight]

@praetarius5018

Sorry for the late reply.  I didn't get a message in my email that a message was posted (I was following the topic too).  I think something is wrong with RHDN.

Anyways, what do you think is a good number?  I don't know how the division works for ST/MT spells, but -25% seems rather small.  I was thinking -33%, at least for techs.  Damage multiplier -0.5 seems pretty good too though.  I don't have the data to compare, so it's a bit hard to say.  Damn.  I wish I can give you a definite answer, but I don't know.  I'll leave it to your judgement.



@hmsong

I found a crash from your better monster patch -- if you use the jumping pad in the molebear highland, then go in the hole to go fight the mole boss, but use escape rope, the game crashes.

[hmsong]

I think multiplier -0.5 is pretty good.  Not sure about -25/33% though, although that depends on if the damage is calculated before defense or after defense.  If it's before defense, then -25% sounds good.  If it's after defense, then -25% seems a bit too little.

@hmsong

I found a crash from your better monster patch -- if you use the jumping pad in the molebear highland, then go in the hole to go fight the mole boss, but use escape rope, the game crashes.

Holy crud.  I can't believe you found that.  Thanks.  I'll fix that.  I'll probably update multiple patches the next time I release something, esp Class Balance (I added Mr Death God as a skill now).

[praetarius5018]

I think multiplier -0.5 is pretty good.  Not sure about -25/33% though, although that depends on if the damage is calculated before defense or after defense.  If it's before defense, then -25% sounds good.  If it's after defense, then -25% seems a bit too little.

everything in SD3 is before defense

[hmsong]

Ahh.  Gottya.  I vote for multiplier -0.5.  I have a feeling that it'll work well.

Btw, I noticed in the final fight (or was it against Land Umber?) that some spells do not cause Status Effects.  For example, enemies use Stone Cloud on me, but I don't get petrified.  Do enemies (at least the final bosses) have their own spells that differ from the player's spells? (ex: Is enemy's Stone Cloud something different than the one you use?)  Or perhaps your characters become immune to certain SEs after the 2nd class change?

[praetarius5018]

No, they use the same spell data as the player's spells. And neither do you get any status immunities.

One of Duran's shields protects against (most) status effects and while you're casting a spell the game doesn't inflict status effects either, but beyond that, no idea.

[soul_knight]

So... how does ST/MT spell damage calculation work?  Is it just attack -25% before defense?

[praetarius5018]

I think it was +25% atk before def if either:
1) you cast a ST spell
2) you cast an always-MT spell (e.g. Lise's summons)

[soul_knight]

Oh, so it's not that MT spells got -25%, but ST spells (and always MT spells) got +25% before def.  In that case, MT lv2/3 techs getting -25% doesn't seem much.  Yeah.  Please go with -0.5 for the multiplier for MT techs (for only monsters).  I think I have a higher chance of surviving if I end up eating two of those in a row (Lugar, DSKnight).  Thanks.

Wait, I think I may have done the math wrong.  If Lv2 tech is x2, and Lv3 tech is x2.5, then if it's -25% (before defense)...
2 x 0.75 = 1.5 <-- this is the same as multiplier -0.5
2.5 x 0.75 = 1.875 <-- this is multiplier -0.65

So that means -25% is actually better for survival for, right?  Or did I mistake something somewhere?  If that is correct, then I take back what I said about requesting multiplier -0.5, and rather go with -25%.  Sorry about changing my request.  Thanks.

[hmsong]

Okay, my patch updates are up.  Better Monster, Class Balance, Less Grinding, and Item Shop.

No, they use the same spell data as the player's spells. And neither do you get any status immunities.

One of Duran's shields protects against (most) status effects and while you're casting a spell the game doesn't inflict status effects either, but beyond that, no idea.

Damn.  I know it's not the shield, since I wasn't using Duran when I got hit by that spell (and I didn't have Lise's Earth Bracelet on when I got hit either).  I thought it was one of the weird behaviors like what happened with Gildervine and its incomplete Counter Magic.

I think it was +25% atk before def if either:
1) you cast a ST spell
2) you cast an always-MT spell (e.g. Lise's summons)

Actually, 2) doesn't get the extra boosted damage.  I just checked with Lise's summon against a single enemy (only one enemy on the screen), then I tested the same spell against a group of the same enemies, and it did less damage (2 enemies and 3 enemies don't make any difference though).  I only tested it with Lise's Freya spell though, but I'm guessing the same concept applies to all other always MT spells.

Wait, I think I may have done the math wrong.  If Lv2 tech is x2, and Lv3 tech is x2.5, then if it's -25% (before defense)...
2 x 0.75 = 1.5 <-- this is the same as multiplier -0.5
2.5 x 0.75 = 1.875 <-- this is multiplier -0.65

So that means -25% is actually better for survival for, right?  Or did I mistake something somewhere?  If that is correct, then I take back what I said about requesting multiplier -0.5, and rather go with -25%.  Sorry about changing my request.  Thanks.

Huh.  I didn't think about that.  But the math is sort of wrong (it's actually -0.625), but your point still stands.  So if what you say is right, then yeah, -25% would be another solution, esp since Lugar and DSK uses about 16 MT techs per fight.  Still, I feel a little weird that MT Lv3 tech would be weaker than ST Lv2 tech, even if it's just for monsters.  I much prefer just -0.5 multiplier (meaning MT Lv3 tech will have the same power as ST Lv2 tech).

Btw, DSK's Lv3 techs are actually Lv2 techs, despite having the graphic and the name of the Lv3 techs.  I know, because I tried to reduce their powers by turning them into Lv2 tech, but then I realized that they were already Lv2 techs, which I couldn't do anything about.  And I can't do anything about Lugar's Lv3 techs, because I can't do anything about the werewolves' techs.  That means nothing's changed for Lugar nor DSK even with my patch.  If necessary, I'm gonna remove my tech edits on my Class Balance patch if the new praetarius5018 patch changes the monster techs.

[soul_knight]

Makes sense.  I agree with -0.5.

[hmsong]

@praetarius5018

Hey, I got several questions:

1. It seems that there are several treasures in map 45 -- all containing money.  Is there a way to obtain those treasures in vanilla?
2. Sort of related to the #1, but are there other treasures that exist in the game, but can't access?  Which map?
3. For the Sprite Actions (usually 9th byte when you put a sprite in a map), I figured out several, like:
   00, 04 = stands still
   08 = runs towards you
   0C = runs away from you
   0E (and several others) = walks around randomly
   12 = looks around while standing
   14 = sleeping
   16 = unconscious

But are there anything else?  I'm sure there's a lot, but I don't know which is which.  I'd appreciate the specific info about these sprite actions.

[Messianic]

Is there any way to hack a value in the ROM to tell the game who you "main" character is in order to choose which of the 3 branching paths you want?

I am playing an old save and really want to go to Dragon's Hole as I have played the other 2 spots. I am right at Mana Holyland the first time, so none of the branching has happened yet.

[hmsong]

Is there any way to hack a value in the ROM to tell the game who you "main" character is in order to choose which of the 3 branching paths you want?

I am playing an old save and really want to go to Dragon's Hole as I have played the other 2 spots. I am right at Mana Holyland the first time, so none of the branching has happened yet.

No idea.  Praetarius5018 might know, since his Sin of Mana somehow opened up all 3 paths if you beat one path.


It seems RHDN has changed its alert system (due to problems).  Jeez, no wonder I wasn't getting notified.  You're gonna have to re-change the topic's alerts to receive alerts (and receive email if that's your thing).

[hmsong]

Okay.  Updated four patches -- Better Monster, Better Starting Stat, Class Balance, and Item Shop.  Please try them, esp Class Balance.  I want to see how it fairs, esp now that I mixed up a few things.

Chances are, this will be my final major versions (things that don't require you to restart the game), unless there's some sort of errors or something that need to be fixed, or bugfix patch has something that which I need to make things compatible -- chances are, these will be minor fix that don't require you to restart the game.  And the reason is... I'm out of idea, at least within my skill set.

[Strobel]

Okay.  Updated four patches -- Better Monster, Better Starting Stat, Class Balance, and Item Shop.  Please try them, esp Class Balance.  I want to see how it fairs, esp now that I mixed up a few things.

Chances are, this will be my final major versions (things that don't require you to restart the game), unless there's some sort of errors or something that need to be fixed, or bugfix patch has something that which I need to make things compatible -- chances are, these will be minor fix that don't require you to restart the game.  And the reason is... I'm out of idea, at least within my skill set.

My first post here! Is there any patches and bugfixes to the official english 48mb rom?
If not, since you're out of ideas, would it be too difficult for you to fix this version also?

[hmsong]

My first post here! Is there any patches and bugfixes to the official english 48mb rom?
If not, since you're out of ideas, would it be too difficult for you to fix this version also?

Uhh, official english "48MB" rom?  Last time I checked, the official English rom (aka Trials of Mana) is 6mb.  And all of my patches are compatible with Trials of Mana rom.  The bugfix patch (which is by praetarius5018) is NOT compatible with ToM rom.  And before you ask, no I don't know how to make that work with ToM.  That thing is quite complicated.

[ryouga]

I assume they mean megabit as 48 megabit is 6 megabytes.

[Strobel]

Uhh, official english "48MB" rom?  Last time I checked, the official English rom (aka Trials of Mana) is 6mb.  And all of my patches are compatible with Trials of Mana rom.  The bugfix patch (which is by praetarius5018) is NOT compatible with ToM rom.  And before you ask, no I don't know how to make that work with ToM.  That thing is quite complicated.

Oh ok. Thanks for the answer.
 

I assume they mean megabit as 48 megabit is 6 megabytes.

Yes, exactly this. They expanded the rom to 6MB to make the official translations.

[hmsong]

Oh.  Gottya.  This just shows how much I don't know about anything.  I have the will to make patches, but not the skills.

[Jello_Snake]

Will any of these work with the MSU1 hack?