Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion

[soul_knight]

Okay, I'll raise Poron's Dart damage a bit.

Edit:  Done.  Waiting for the approval.  And updated Better Starting Stat and More Evade too.

Cool.  Thanks.  Btw, why did you change back the Jutsu to use INT to do damage?  I thought AGI was a good idea, esp since you need to raise AGI to learn the jutsus in the first place, and Hawk specializes in AGI (and Luck).

[hmsong]

Cool.  Thanks.  Btw, why did you change back the Jutsu to use INT to do damage?  I thought AGI was a good idea, esp since you need to raise AGI to learn the jutsus in the first place, and Hawk specializes in AGI (and Luck).

Skills based on AGI did so little damage by the end of the game.  Even weakened, Hawk's INT (17x7) damage outdid AGI (21x8) damage, because most enemies had much stronger def than m.def.  I wanted to make jutsus do something interesting, but everything was worse than the simple INT damage.  I mean, what's the point of using a skill with high stats, when the end result is objectively worse?  And SPI damage is no good either, because enemies have higher SPI defense than INT damage.  I know the bugfix changed that (at least, v1.9), but I'm trying to balance things for both the bugfix patch and the original game.



@praetarius5018

I don't know if you'll see this message, as this thread has been pretty quiet these days (I think RHDN is having some kind of problem sending notification too, as I didn't get any when I update something or someone posts something in the threads I follow).  I assume you didn't yet decide on the melee counter in a satisfactory way.  I hope you didn't just drop it.

I know that the characters' MP rises differently (Carlie and Angela get higher MP per level, even without factoring the INT/PIE).  I want to play around with that for all characters (lower them), and at the same time, raise the Max MP gain per PIE stat (instead of just 1, make it 2).  Which addresses contain that information?  That is, after applying your patch.  That way, PIE will have more importance than what it is currently (which isn't much for all characters/classes without Heal Light).

[praetarius5018]

I assume you didn't yet decide on the melee counter in a satisfactory way.  I hope you didn't just drop it.

No satisfying idea on that, consider it half dropped.

I know that the characters' MP rises differently (Carlie and Angela get higher MP per level, even without factoring the INT/PIE).  I want to play around with that for all characters (lower them), and at the same time, raise the Max MP gain per PIE stat (instead of just 1, make it 2).  Which addresses contain that information?  That is, after applying your patch.  That way, PIE will have more importance than what it is currently (which isn't much for all characters/classes without Heal Light).

Table starts at D1/3940, 14 bytes per level, 2 per type,
Duran, Kevin, Hawk, Angela, Charlie, Lise, Boss

As for the INT/PIE effectiveness, that would require going into the compressed section for the post class change value, don't bother with that.
The non-compressed asm for MP calc on level up is around D0/E315 and jumps to D0/E35A.

If you want less headaches you'd probably be better off to half the MP from levels, spell costs and walnut recovery.

[Greyfield]

Dang it.  Sigh.  Thanks, I'll take a look.  Guess I'll have to use the old version's No Skill Counter.  Having said that, No Skill Counter won't work if it's used with current version's bugfix.  At least, not what I can tell.

Hmsong,

Quick question for you.  "Class Balance + No Skill Counter" was updated on 2/27/22.  Were you able to fix the transitions issue when the "No Skill Counter" portion of the patch was applied?  If using praetarius5018's bugfix patch, would you still suggest just the class balance patches?

Thanks!

[hmsong]

No satisfying idea on that, consider it half dropped.

Dang it.  It saddens me, but I understand.  I hope it doesn't get dropped, but even if it does, I'm still very grateful to you.

Table starts at D1/3940, 14 bytes per level, 2 per type,
Duran, Kevin, Hawk, Angela, Charlie, Lise, Boss

As for the INT/PIE effectiveness, that would require going into the compressed section for the post class change value, don't bother with that.
The non-compressed asm for MP calc on level up is around D0/E315 and jumps to D0/E35A.

Thanks for the info.  I think I can change the MP per level (before PIE factor).  At least, I can experiment with it to figure out what I need to change.  Seems like the first byte, but I'll work on that.

Argh.  INT/PIE effectiveness.  Dang it.  I looked around the addresses you posted, but I don't see anything obvious that I can change.  I was hoping I can see "01" somewhere, so that change that to "02".  I mean, we know that INT/PIE gives 1 MP.  My intent is to change that to 2 MP.  Could you tell me what address/value I need to change?

If you want less headaches you'd probably be better off to half the MP from levels, spell costs and walnut recovery.

Hmm.  I want at least Angela to reach 99 Max MP by Lv55, assuming INT/PIE is at least 20.  You know, a "coolness" factor.  Also, reducing the spell cost by half will make things too different from the original game, which is not my intent.



@Greyfield

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "transitions issue", but the reason I changed No Skill Counter back to the old one was because soul_knight informed me that the new one had a problem of disabling the HP threshold moves.  I confirmed it after some testing.  I want the HP threshold moves to exist, so I changed it back.

As for your "If using praetarius5018's bugfix patch, would you still suggest just the class balance patches?", that depends on the version of the bugfix you're using.  If it's v1.8 (or was it v1.7?) or below, then No Skill Counter will have effect.  But v1.9 will pretty much ignore No Skill Counter, even if you apply it (or have very little effect).  So if you're using v1.8 or below and you don't want enemies to counter you from spells, then I suggest you to use No Skill Counter.  For everything else, I suggest you to not use No Skill Counter.

[praetarius5018]

Argh.  INT/PIE effectiveness.  Dang it.  I looked around the addresses you posted, but I don't see anything obvious that I can change.  I was hoping I can see "01" somewhere, so that change that to "02".  I mean, we know that INT/PIE gives 1 MP.  My intent is to change that to 2 MP.  Could you tell me what address/value I need to change?

No, you'd have to dive into asm coding proper.

[hmsong]

No, you'd have to dive into asm coding proper.

Hmm.  You think any tutorials on youtube for "asm coding" will help?  Specifically, is that even something I can learn off of youtube video? (at least, to the point where I can find and change things for my purpose for SD3?)  You already know how little I know about any kind of coding.  If you think it's something way beyond my level, then I guess I'll give up on that idea.

[soul_knight]

@praetarius5018

Hey!  Good to see you again.  I know things are difficult lately for everyone, but I hope you're doing well.

If you get to updating the bugfix patch, could you make the Moon Saber recover a bit less HP for the characters, but a lot more for the enemy characters?  You know, instead of the recovery number based on the damage, have it based on the attacker's max HP (1/64 round down sounds good).  That way, Moon Saber won't be so OP for characters without being useless, and the enemies will recover a lot more (looking at you, Bigeau).  Leaf Saber can use the same mechanic, but Pumpkin Bomb/Grenade Bomb/Poison Bubble should remain the same as vanilla though -- it's the one thing that makes Hawk's L classes somewhat useful.

[Greyfield]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "transitions issue", but the reason I changed No Skill Counter back to the old one was because soul_knight informed me that the new one had a problem of disabling the HP threshold moves.  I confirmed it after some testing.  I want the HP threshold moves to exist, so I changed it back.

As for your "If using praetarius5018's bugfix patch, would you still suggest just the class balance patches?", that depends on the version of the bugfix you're using.  If it's v1.8 (or was it v1.7?) or below, then No Skill Counter will have effect.  But v1.9 will pretty much ignore No Skill Counter, even if you apply it (or have very little effect).  So if you're using v1.8 or below and you don't want enemies to counter you from spells, then I suggest you to use No Skill Counter.  For everything else, I suggest you to not use No Skill Counter.

Thank you for the reply! I was indeed talking about the HP threshold moves.  I'm using bugfix v1.9, so I'll repatch with your newest updates.

[soul_knight]

@praetarius5018

Hey, could you tell me what this, "-changed the level based bonus to a gradual increase by level instead of a sudden spike going from 19 to 20 and 39 to 40" thing is?  In vanilla, there was sudden spike of bonus from lv19 to 20, and 39 to 40?  Actually, there was some kind of bonus of any kind?  Is that for your characters or for the enemies? (or both)

[praetarius5018]

@praetarius5018

Hey, could you tell me what this, "-changed the level based bonus to a gradual increase by level instead of a sudden spike going from 19 to 20 and 39 to 40" thing is?  In vanilla, there was sudden spike of bonus from lv19 to 20, and 39 to 40?  Actually, there was some kind of bonus of any kind?  Is that for your characters or for the enemies? (or both)

in vanilla spells do:
-60% more damage if they hit a monster of level 20-39 or a player with 1 class change
-90% more if the monster is 40+ or the player has done both class changes

just to be clear, if checks on the TARGET there.
I changed it to a check for caster instead and always check for level.

[soul_knight]

in vanilla spells do:
-60% more damage if they hit a monster of level 20-39 or a player with 1 class change
-90% more if the monster is 40+ or the player has done both class changes

just to be clear, if checks on the TARGET there.
I changed it to a check for caster instead and always check for level.

Ah, thank you.  I wonder why 20-39, instead of 21-40 (that's when the godbeast chain is finished).  I guess that means the vanilla 7th godbeast takes more damage (assuming it's lv40).  Heh.

So for your patch, does it mean that Lv20-39 caster (player or monster) do 60% more damage, and Lv40+ does 90% more damage?

[praetarius5018]

I gave it linear progression per level. Lv1-10 has +0% then it rises to +60% at lv20 (+6% per level), +90% at lv40 and +100% at lv50. And there it stops.

[soul_knight]

I gave it linear progression per level. Lv1-10 has +0% then it rises to +60% at lv20 (+6% per level), +90% at lv40 and +100% at lv50. And there it stops.

Ohh.  Good stuff.  That makes a lot of sense.  I wish the +90% was at Lv41 (because Lv40 is the end of the 7 godbeast chain, and Lv41 is where people get the 2nd class up).  Well, just a minor detail that some people may not agree with.  In any case, thanks.

[hmsong]

This thread is alive~~~

As a thank you, Class Balance has been updated.  Just a minor update though.

[Zimgief]

Hi!
Lost track of the topic at the end of last year. I was sick + Christmas... I just forgot.


praetarius5018 : you were just about to finish the patch, but I understand creative blackouts can occur.

So, about counters, you were thinking of this:

- melee strike would add 15 x LUCK_ADJUST to aggro
- spells and L2/3 techs would add 40 x LUCK_ADJUST
- if the monster uses a spell or L2/3 tech it loses 10 aggro.
- Threshold could be 80 for regular monster, 200 for bosses.
- When a counter is triggered, the aggro resets to 0.

I'm just drawing a total blank on what LUCK_ADJUST should exactly be.
I kinda want it to be 100%+ (or even 150%) if you have absolutely no luck stat (15) increase at lv45+ - so a spell plus a couple random hits gets you vanilla behaviour for random mobs - and like ~20% at max luck (22)

So you want to involve luck in the calculation to make the stat more interesting. But it proves difficult to do so. Moreover, in this way it wouldn't take in account progression: at the beginning of the game, Luck would have close to no influence, and by the end, maybe to much.

Two leads:
1) maybe drop LUCK. The game would be vastly superior with a no-luck implementation of the aggro meter than no aggro meter at all.
2) otherwise, LUCK has to be compared to another varaible in order to make it impactful at any stage of the game. Enemy Level, or Luck. I don't know if LUCK is correctly implemented for enemies, so their level may be better.
a) with LUCK, one easy way would be to make a truly random counter for standard enemies, but use your formula for bosses, for whom you could reassign careful luck values, in relation to expected LUCK value for character players at that point of the game. Something like 15 (or 40) + (enemy.LUCK - player.LUCK). Maybe cap enemy.LUCK - player.LUCK if it's inferior to -5 or superior to +5.
b) something similar with Enemy Level vs Player Luck (but Enemy Level /2, o something like that) ?

I feel LUCK vs LUCK would be cleaner, and distingish between bosses better, once the values correctly assigned (only bosses, or all enemies depending on the amount of work required).

I hope you will find something satisfactory. But as I said, even without LUCK, even it's it is temporary, an simpler aggro meter would be vastly better than nothing.

[praetarius5018]

I feel LUCK vs LUCK would be cleaner, and distingish between bosses better, once the values correctly assigned (only bosses, or all enemies depending on the amount of work required).

I hope you will find something satisfactory. But as I said, even without LUCK, even it's it is temporary, an simpler aggro meter would be vastly better than nothing.

All enemies already have a luck stat. As with all base stats they use Lise (base, L at 20, L/L at 40) progression and having all stats at the level specific cap. Well, except Koren (imitate Angela) and Heath (Charlie clone)

[Zimgief]

Good to know!
Some specific enemies might be tweaked, lik Bill and Ben, as LUCK was not thought to be linked to counters, and that should do it? Keeping it simple. -5 to +5 per hit after a substraction between respective LUCK. Nothing too fancy or major, yet LUCK involved. Thoughts?

[soul_knight]

@praetarius5018

Hey, I remember you once said that you could make the MT Lv2/3 techs weaker (for monsters), but you ultimately chose not to, because either I or someone else disagreed because it'll make tough bosses like Bill/Ben and Lugar way too weak.  But now that the melee counter is a thing, could you apply that?  You don't need to do the aggro meter, since that seems to cause you headache (and to avoid being too similar to Sin of Mana), but if the MT Lv2/3 techs were weaker, then getting hit by multiple Lv2/3 techs wouldn't be a big problem.  In fact, it'll be sort of fun.

[praetarius5018]

that is an option, yes, but what exactly should be changed?
just 25% less atk? damage multiplier -0.5? or what exactly?

as reminder, as damage
lv2 techs use 2x atk - def
and lv3 techs 2.5x atk - def