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Author Topic: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion  (Read 77580 times)

soul_knight

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #380 on: December 19, 2021, 06:21:31 pm »
Actually, that is even preferable to me since that should just be changing one date point from 00 into an FF, otherwise I'd have to change the day logic itself.

Awesome.  Thanks.

They copy 1:1 the stats of whoever they copy. The only thing they don't copy is spells known.
RNG will always hate you.

Argh!  Damn Shadowzeroes!  RNG (G stands for God) always screws with me.  I hate those little pukes.

Writing it down it begs the question:
this it make him less OP (no imba defense) or more OP (just the VIT from class change alone should be enough to cap def)

Despite Kevin's high VIT, he doesn't seem to get a very high DEF stat.  Only like 2 points, relative to Angela or something.  I'm not sure what's going on, but I'm guessing Kevin's armor sucks.

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #381 on: December 20, 2021, 09:20:17 am »
Better Starting Stat and Item Shop updated.



@praetarius5018

I was able to make some shop items appear only after the 1st class up (7F -> 7E), but is there a way to make some items appear after the 2nd class up?

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #382 on: December 20, 2021, 12:26:24 pm »
I was able to make some shop items appear only after the 1st class up (7F -> 7E), but is there a way to make some items appear after the 2nd class up?
I only have 1A - light only, 64 - dark only but not 2nd class specifics.

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #383 on: December 20, 2021, 06:45:53 pm »
I only have 1A - light only, 64 - dark only but not 2nd class specifics.

Yeah.  1A+64=7E.  Oh well.  Worth a shot.

Edit:  Okay, as I was writing, I think I figured it out, looking at the pattern (untested).  01=base, 02=L, 04=D, 08=LL, 10=LD, 20=DL, 40=DD.  You add those up, and you get 7F.  L+LL+LD=1A, and D+DL+DD=64.  And that means 2nd class (LL+LD+DL+DD) is 78.  Huh.  I guess sometimes, when you write things out, you figure things out.  Thanks.

Not much I can do with that knowledge, sadly, because 2nd class change comes so late in vanilla.  But you might be able to do something for your Sin of Mana (unless you've already done so).

With that knowledge, you might be able to find the ??? Seed item error (current, LL and LD results in D class items).  I don't even know which bank has that though, so it's pretty hopeless for me... Any idea which bank has that info?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2021, 07:31:25 pm by hmsong »

soul_knight

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #384 on: December 21, 2021, 12:23:08 am »
With that knowledge, you might be able to find the ??? Seed item error (current, LL and LD results in D class items).  I don't even know which bank has that though, so it's pretty hopeless for me... Any idea which bank has that info?

I sincerely hope one of you fix that thing.  It really throws off the balance for Carlie (Sage Carlie is so powerful, because she has access to Black Curse).

December 24, 2021, 08:51:32 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Not much I can do with that knowledge, sadly, because 2nd class change comes so late in vanilla.  But you might be able to do something for your Sin of Mana (unless you've already done so).

I got an idea.  Put one of the throw items in the original black market (Pumpkin Bomb enables players to access the tree element attack), and move the three seeds into the secret shop 1.  And make the secret shop available after the mana stones break.  But only enable the non-seed items after the 2nd class change.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2021, 08:51:32 am by soul_knight »

Messianic

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #385 on: December 24, 2021, 04:08:56 pm »
Is it possible to disable regular enemy random tech altogether and make them ONLY melee counter you?

Of course if this would also apply to Bill/Ben and Luger that would be a problem...

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #386 on: December 25, 2021, 03:14:17 am »
I got an idea.  Put one of the throw items in the original black market (Pumpkin Bomb enables players to access the tree element attack), and move the three seeds into the secret shop 1.  And make the secret shop available after the mana stones break.  But only enable the non-seed items after the 2nd class change.

First, thanks for your input.  I always enjoy hearing other people's ideas.

Second, while I like the idea of putting a throwing item in the black market (not sure about Pumpkin Bomb, since that's the most powerful throwing item), but doing so would get rid of the "item that gets enabled after the first class change".  And I want something in the black market to be enabled after the 1st class change.  I don't mind putting the seeds in the 1st secret shop though, and then enabling other items after the 2nd class change.  Hmm.

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #387 on: December 25, 2021, 05:27:34 am »
With that knowledge, you might be able to find the ??? Seed item error (current, LL and LD results in D class items).  I don't even know which bank has that though, so it's pretty hopeless for me... Any idea which bank has that info?
No idea, sorry.

Is it possible to disable regular enemy random tech altogether and make them ONLY melee counter you?

Of course if this would also apply to Bill/Ben and Luger that would be a problem...
Theoretically yes but that would require editing the AIs of all affected enemies directly.
And the AI for "random" enemies (anything that is roughly player sized) is a mess I want to avoid as much as I can.

Also even if, I don't see the benefit in this; it would make mobs both less dangerous (never get a tech when you enter a room) and more dangerous (ALWAYS get a tech to the face before you kill the mob; hit 2 mobs at the same time = game over)

soul_knight

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #388 on: December 25, 2021, 07:39:26 am »
Second, while I like the idea of putting a throwing item in the black market (not sure about Pumpkin Bomb, since that's the most powerful throwing item), but doing so would get rid of the "item that gets enabled after the first class change".  And I want something in the black market to be enabled after the 1st class change.  I don't mind putting the seeds in the 1st secret shop though, and then enabling other items after the 2nd class change.  Hmm.

Oh, right.  Well, maybe you can leave one of the special seeds that gets enabled after the first class change.


Theoretically yes but that would require editing the AIs of all affected enemies directly.
And the AI for "random" enemies (anything that is roughly player sized) is a mess I want to avoid as much as I can.

Also even if, I don't see the benefit in this; it would make mobs both less dangerous (never get a tech when you enter a room) and more dangerous (ALWAYS get a tech to the face before you kill the mob; hit 2 mobs at the same time = game over)

I actually prefer the current version, where it is entirely up to RNG.  I do hope that the counter rate is either decreased or is limited to one (aggro meter or some sort).

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #389 on: December 25, 2021, 07:53:53 am »
I actually prefer the current version, where it is entirely up to RNG.  I do hope that the counter rate is either decreased or is limited to one (aggro meter or some sort).
That is something I want to do but I'm stuck at the "math part" (creative blackout if you will);
melee strike would add 15 x LUCK_ADJUST to aggro
spells and L2/3 techs would add 40 x LUCK_ADJUST
if the monster uses a spell or L2/3 tech it loses 10 aggro.
Threshold could be 80 for regular monster, 200 for bosses.
I'm just drawing a total blank on what LUCK_ADJUST should exactly be.
I kinda want it to be 100%+ (or even 150%) if you have absolutely no luck stat (15) increase at lv45+ - so a spell plus a couple random hits gets you vanilla behaviour for random mobs -
and like ~20% at max luck (22)

soul_knight

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #390 on: December 25, 2021, 08:29:59 am »
That is something I want to do but I'm stuck at the "math part" (creative blackout if you will);
melee strike would add 15 x LUCK_ADJUST to aggro
spells and L2/3 techs would add 40 x LUCK_ADJUST
if the monster uses a spell or L2/3 tech it loses 10 aggro.
Threshold could be 80 for regular monster, 200 for bosses.
I'm just drawing a total blank on what LUCK_ADJUST should exactly be.
I kinda want it to be 100%+ (or even 150%) if you have absolutely no luck stat (15) increase at lv45+ - so a spell plus a couple random hits gets you vanilla behaviour for random mobs -
and like ~20% at max luck (22)

Perhaps I'm overthinking, but having "spells and L2/3 techs would add 40 x LUCK_ADJUST" would just encourage people to use Lv1 techs.  I think spell/tech should have the same chance as melee (but not 0) -- spell/tech tends to be more powerful than melee, thus encouraging people to use spells more.

Also, if threshold for regular monster is 80 and boss is 200, does that mean that normal monsters would counter more frequently than the bosses?

Also, don't some characters' luck max out at 15?  And you want their attacks to have 100+% counter rate?  Uhh.  Perhaps that's a bit much?

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #391 on: December 25, 2021, 08:53:40 am »
Perhaps I'm overthinking, but having "spells and L2/3 techs would add 40 x LUCK_ADJUST" would just encourage people to use Lv1 techs.  I think spell/tech should have the same chance as melee (but not 0) -- spell/tech tends to be more powerful than melee, thus encouraging people to use spells more.
That wouldn't work too well.
Spells and L2/3 techs do deal more damage per hit.
And I can't differentiate between regular melee hits and L1 tech hits there.


Also, if threshold for regular monster is 80 and boss is 200, does that mean that normal monsters would counter more frequently than the bosses?
They also die a lot quicker. So like 2-3 spells to trigger a reaction with "neutral" luck (no idea what value that would be) should mean 1 at most.


Also, don't some characters' luck max out at 15?
That's one of the issues.
I want there to some reward for choosing to invest in luck but not give that reward for free just for being Hawk.
Some max at 15~17, Hawk has a minimum of 17 after 2nd class change.
He'd combine basically having 2nd highest dps with lowest risk generation (plus his usual slew of support spells).

I kinda need to scale the whole thing by something like your current luck vs target's level/luck/boss status?
Otherwise there's no effect from putting 1 point into it as Duran but class changing as Hawk breaks the mechanic.


And you want their attacks to have 100+% counter rate?  Uhh.  Perhaps that's a bit much?
Not 100% counter rate by full aggro build up; with "worst" luck you get the full +15/+40 per hit instead of less.

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #392 on: December 25, 2021, 07:42:27 pm »
That is something I want to do but I'm stuck at the "math part" (creative blackout if you will);
melee strike would add 15 x LUCK_ADJUST to aggro
spells and L2/3 techs would add 40 x LUCK_ADJUST
if the monster uses a spell or L2/3 tech it loses 10 aggro.
Threshold could be 80 for regular monster, 200 for bosses.
I'm just drawing a total blank on what LUCK_ADJUST should exactly be.
I kinda want it to be 100%+ (or even 150%) if you have absolutely no luck stat (15) increase at lv45+ - so a spell plus a couple random hits gets you vanilla behaviour for random mobs -
and like ~20% at max luck (22)

Wow.  That's some interesting system.  I'm not entirely sure how Luck Adjust works though, but I'm guessing it's something along the line of [Enemy Level / {Your Luck x 10}] -- not this particular formula, but nevertheless the higher your own luck is, the less likely you'll be countered.

As soul_knight said though, I do wish for a system that encourages players to use more spells and Lv2/3 techs.  Spells/techs having high aggro discourages that.  Spells and techs do more damage, but they also have restrictions, like the cast time and tech meter.  Well, I'm sure there are flaws there too...

Why do monsters only lose 10 aggro when they use spells/techs?  Shouldn't the aggro gauge be emptied?  I feel like this is just another "spell combo" waiting to happen, esp the bosses.

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #393 on: December 26, 2021, 05:43:46 am »
I'm not entirely sure how Luck Adjust works though
That is exactly what I'm trying to figure out.


As soul_knight said though, I do wish for a system that encourages players to use more spells and Lv2/3 techs.  Spells/techs having high aggro discourages that.  Spells and techs do more damage, but they also have restrictions, like the cast time and tech meter.  Well, I'm sure there are flaws there too...
My logic behind that is that with buffs spells deal 2-3x the damage of normal/L1 techs at best. So 2.5x ish aggro sounds fine to me.


Why do monsters only lose 10 aggro when they use spells/techs?  Shouldn't the aggro gauge be emptied?
If it was emptied counters would effectively "never" happen.
There are not only obvious spells being used like evil gate and such but also stealthy ones, like zable fahr's fire breath (not screen freezing), that is a disguised gremlin spell.

Please think about it; with 0 luck stat you'd need to inflict 5(!) spell/tech hits BEFORE the enemy uses 1 - that will never happen.


I feel like this is just another "spell combo" waiting to happen, esp the bosses.
How so?

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #394 on: December 26, 2021, 06:10:50 am »
If it was emptied counters would effectively "never" happen.
There are not only obvious spells being used like evil gate and such but also stealthy ones, like zable fahr's fire breath (not screen freezing), that is a disguised gremlin spell.

Wait wait, enemies like Zable Fahr don't have counter in the first place, right?  I thought counters are for regular enemies and small bosses.  Are you putting counters on big bosses that don't normally have counters?  I thought you were putting counters only to regular enemies and small bosses, because they don't randomly use skills, unless it's right at the start of the battle (ex: Poron, Nightblade, Bill/Ben) and/or HP threshold (ex: Bill/Ben, Lugar, Koren, BR).

Please think about it; with 0 luck stat you'd need to inflict 5(!) spell/tech hits BEFORE the enemy uses 1 - that will never happen.

Wait, what?  How do you get 5 spell/techs before enemy uses 1 counter?  Assuming the threshold for normal mon is 80, and the smallest Luck stat is 2 (Duran, Kevin), so... wait, I'm lost.

How so?

If enemy gets its aggro to 80, but while it's casting, if you damage it a bit, then aggro may be raised to 90, in which case, after the magic, it'll be reduced to 80, and since it's still 80, it'll use spell again -- x2 combo.  And against the bosses, if it's 200, but you do enough damage to make it 220, then that's x3 combo.  Etc etc.  I think that's way too anti-Kevin.

Honestly, I think counters should only happen for bosses, and not regular enemies -- regular enemies are already pretty tough even without the counters, because of their random hp threshold moves (ex: Bloody Wolf x2 = you die).  Not sure if anyone else would agree with me though.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2021, 06:20:44 am by hmsong »

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #395 on: December 26, 2021, 06:43:53 am »
Wait wait, enemies like Zable Fahr don't have counter in the first place, right?  I thought counters are for regular enemies and small bosses.  Are you putting counters on big bosses that don't normally have counters?  I thought you were putting counters only to regular enemies and small bosses, because they don't randomly use skills, unless it's right at the start of the battle (ex: Poron, Nightblade, Bill/Ben) and/or HP threshold (ex: Bill/Ben, Lugar, Koren, BR).
ZF was just the first example I thought of where a non-time freezing move is actually a spell in disguise in contrast to just a normal attack or a L1 tech.


Wait, what?  How do you get 5 spell/techs before enemy uses 1 counter?  Assuming the threshold for normal mon is 80, and the smallest Luck stat is 2 (Duran, Kevin), so... wait, I'm lost.
Exactly, you CAN'T for bosses.
You'd have to hit them with 5 spells before they reset the aggro totally with your suggestion which is flat out impossible.


If enemy gets its aggro to 80, but while it's casting, if you damage it a bit, then aggro may be raised to 90, in which case, after the magic, it'll be reduced to 80, and since it's still 80, it'll use spell again -- x2 combo.  And against the bosses, if it's 200, but you do enough damage to make it 220, then that's x3 combo.  Etc etc.  I think that's way too anti-Kevin.
I've no idea what you're thinking here.
When the aggro meter reaches the threshold and (tries to) trigger a counter it would then reset to 0.

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #396 on: December 26, 2021, 06:49:48 am »
I've no idea what you're thinking here.
When the aggro meter reaches the threshold and (tries to) trigger a counter it would then reset to 0.

I think I misunderstood you.  I thought when you said, "if the monster uses a spell or L2/3 tech it loses 10 aggro", I thought you meant that it's "80-10", which is 70, which is only 10 away from triggering a counter.

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #397 on: December 26, 2021, 08:02:27 am »
I think I misunderstood you.  I thought when you said, "if the monster uses a spell or L2/3 tech it loses 10 aggro", I thought you meant that it's "80-10", which is 70, which is only 10 away from triggering a counter.
example with "0" luck since I've no idea what the LUCK_ADJUST should be really
base 0
hit monster with spell: +40, so 40
it hits you with a spell: -10, so 30
hit monster with spell: +40, so 70
hit monster with spell: +40, so 110 which is above 80, so trigger counter, reset down to 0
it hits you with a spell: -10, stays at 0

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #398 on: December 26, 2021, 08:06:40 am »
example with "0" luck since I've no idea what the LUCK_ADJUST should be really
base 0
hit monster with spell: +40, so 40
it hits you with a spell: -10, so 30
hit monster with spell: +40, so 70
hit monster with spell: +40, so 110 which is above 80, so trigger counter, reset down to 0
it hits you with a spell: -10, stays at 0

Ohh.  I see.  Makes sense.  When you say, "it hits you with a spell", does that include monster's HP threshold spell/tech?  Because if it doesn't, then I don't think monsters can actually cast spells, except in the beginning, where they have 0 aggro anyways.  And there "can" be a spell combo, if a counter and hp threshold spell combos each other, but I think that's an acceptable combo.  Not sure about regular monsters having that though...

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #399 on: December 26, 2021, 03:17:55 pm »
Ohh.  I see.  Makes sense.  When you say, "it hits you with a spell", does that include monster's HP threshold spell/tech?  Because if it doesn't, then I don't think monsters can actually cast spells, except in the beginning, where they have 0 aggro anyways.  And there "can" be a spell combo, if a counter and hp threshold spell combos each other, but I think that's an acceptable combo.  Not sure about regular monsters having that though...
if I include that then in the damage formula, so doesn't matter where the spell comes from.

the aggro depletion is mostly interesting for bosses.

and the combo would happen anyway with regular randomness.
just not an aggro reaction with itself (unless you throw a lot of quick low luck hits while the game has its usual lag issues)