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Author Topic: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion  (Read 78700 times)

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #220 on: November 16, 2021, 03:56:42 pm »
If possible, can you keep Kevin at 18 STR for the field test vs lv45~47 enemies? (instead of raising it to 19, which is max for Death Hand)  Average max STR for Kevin is 18 (Hawk = 17, Duran = 21), and I want to compare the info regarding those guys.  The weapons should be the same level though (all Pedan, or all final).

Oh, I ended up raising Kevin's STR, sorry. In case  idon't have an earlier save I'll keep going as is, I guess.
I wonder if Guardians have some sort of innate defense against criticals, since they only happened with energy ball active against them.

Pethronos

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #221 on: November 16, 2021, 04:28:39 pm »
Thanks for the info.  No more 3-player patch for my rom.

Hi all! Concerning the recently mentioned "3 players in ghost ship" bug, it reminded me that the Spanish translation (engrossing project for its time, like English translation also was) contained the 3 players hack. I decided reverting that situation, so just submitted a simple patch that reverts the 3 player hack changes, for unheadered roms.

Moreover, I've happily checked that this makes the Spanish translation fully compatible with Praetarius Fixes (I don't know if previous version was, since depending of patching order, CRC32 was different, which means the patches affected each other in some way).

Not a "greatest hit", but maybe some hispanic speakers thank me ;D

 :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:
« Last Edit: November 16, 2021, 04:49:10 pm by Pethronos »

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #222 on: November 16, 2021, 04:31:50 pm »
Oh, I ended up raising Kevin's STR, sorry. In case  idon't have an earlier save I'll keep going as is, I guess.
I wonder if Guardians have some sort of innate defense against criticals, since they only happened with energy ball active against them.
Don't see anything like that there... sometimes hit them for 105, other for 207. Chance in code is just (LUCK+2)%, no reductions or negations.
No idea why you don't see a difference.

Messianic

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #223 on: November 16, 2021, 04:37:54 pm »
@praetarius

I am of the minority position that Luck Denies Counter should NOT be incredibly strong because Luck is also granting crit, better luck on chests, and reduced status ailment times. Just throwing it out that I think Hawkeye with maxed Luck only denying 44% of boss counters is ALREADY very strong.

No need to make Luck overpowered.



Does anyone know the ROM address for the boss music table? Specifically which boss gets what music? I want to change to byte for Mispolm to be the same as Genova has

Zimgief

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #224 on: November 16, 2021, 04:53:51 pm »
@praetarius

I am of the minority position that Luck Denies Counter should NOT be incredibly strong because Luck is also granting crit, better luck on chests, and reduced status ailment times. Just throwing it out that I think Hawkeye with maxed Luck only denying 44% of boss counters is ALREADY very strong.

No need to make Luck overpowered.
I agree. ^^ The patch is already a huge improvement for LUCK, and using spells/techs.

For now, I let other people test the new version of the hack for debugging and balance purposes (I'm curious about Angela without instant cast, notably). I never touched the game since I was a teen (35 years old here), so I want to play the game for real in perfect conditions (and with my partner). :p

Are there other planned changes?

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #225 on: November 16, 2021, 05:00:55 pm »
Don't see anything like that there... sometimes hit them for 105, other for 207. Chance in code is just (LUCK+2)%, no reductions or negations.
No idea why you don't see a difference.

I don't know either. SRAM should have absolutely no impact on mechanics, right? it's not like I'm loading savestates from vanilla or anything on top of the patched game, I only downloaded a SRAM file and loaded it naturally before I began testing.

November 16, 2021, 05:08:39 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Not a "greatest hit", but maybe some hispanic speakers thank me ;D
 :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

The way I see it, the more people have access to these wonderful fixes and rebalances the better, in as many languages as possible. You are doing speakers of Spanish a great service.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2021, 05:08:39 pm by Red Soul »

soul_knight

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #226 on: November 16, 2021, 05:59:24 pm »
@praetarius

I am of the minority position that Luck Denies Counter should NOT be incredibly strong because Luck is also granting crit, better luck on chests, and reduced status ailment times. Just throwing it out that I think Hawkeye with maxed Luck only denying 44% of boss counters is ALREADY very strong.

No need to make Luck overpowered.

I agree. ^^ The patch is already a huge improvement for LUCK, and using spells/techs.

Well, the goal was to make "using attack skills more viable", right?  If the enemy counters half the time (even after maxing out the Luck), then it'll just make the players NOT use skills, and go right back to the vanilla strategy, which was to use melee forever.  The entire point of creating Luck Denies Counters was to encourage players to be not afraid of using attack skills, but still have that "enemy might end up using counters if I'm unlucky" thing.

And remember, the recent fix made it so that HP threshold moves are guaranteed.  That means you're not gonna come across things like Gildervine and Archdemon and Lugar not transforming, or Black Rabite not using his spell combos, or some other weird things from the previous patch.

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #227 on: November 16, 2021, 06:03:01 pm »
Well, the goal was to make "using attack skills more viable", right?  If the enemy counters half the time (even after maxing out the Luck), then it'll just make the players NOT use skills, and go right back to the vanilla strategy, which was to use melee forever.  The entire point of creating Luck Denies Counters was to encourage players to be not afraid of using attack skills, but still have that "enemy might end up using counters if I'm unlucky" thing.

And remember, the recent fix made it so that HP threshold moves are guaranteed.  That means you're not gonna come across things like Gildervine and Archdemon and Lugar not transforming, or Black Rabite not using his spell combos, or some other weird things from the previous patch.

I agree. There should be enough wiggle room to make techs/spells useful without the constant fear of counters.

Messianic

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #228 on: November 16, 2021, 06:20:07 pm »
So basically you guys want to make an easy game even easier so that a child can blow through it and never have enemies do any real damage to them.

Enemies are not exactly spamming spells out you all day you’re pretty much just nursing them to doing only Malay against you. And pretty much 90% of all bosses damage are their skills so having a high denial counter means boss is just stand around doing nothing.

soul_knight

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #229 on: November 16, 2021, 06:52:08 pm »
So basically you guys want to make an easy game even easier so that a child can blow through it and never have enemies do any real damage to them.

Enemies are not exactly spamming spells out you all day you’re pretty much just nursing them to doing only Malay against you. And pretty much 90% of all bosses damage are their skills so having a high denial counter means boss is just stand around doing nothing.

Huh?  I thought the recent patch only denies COUNTERS, not regular skills.  For example, if Dangard want to use his Air Slasher, he'll use it 100% without being affected by player's Luck (the recent fix uses the attacker's Luck to calculate the denial chance, and enemy's non-counter attacks don't use player's Luck).  On the other hand, if you attack Bill/Ben with Fireball, Luck may deny Bill/Ben his counter.

Or do I have that wrong?


@praetarius5018

Got any other ideas?

Here's one.  Could you make it so that outside the battle, if you don't hold the B button, you're running? (and if you're holding the B button, it walks)  I'm fairly certain many games today does that, and it's wonderful.  Sometimes, when in battle, and I kill a group of the enemies, and I run towards the next group in the same field, I accidentally end up using the tech, because I'm holding the B button to run towards them.  This will solve that problem.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2021, 09:18:06 pm by soul_knight »

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #230 on: November 16, 2021, 08:08:48 pm »
I'd find it weird if anti-magic removes the lesser "resistance" and the higher "absorb" but leaves the middle ground "immunity" alone.

Yeah.  That's why I proposed that AntiMagic removes everything, except Moon (and possibly Leaf).  In most games, fire, water, earth, air, light, and dark are elements.  But Moon and Tree are not.  I know that this is Mana game, and therefore Moon and Tree are both elements, but I felt that leaving those unaffected by AntiMagic is still better than "only remove the high tier defense that is absorb and reflect".  And it'll actually make AntiMagic a bit more useful (which is the goal here).  Only little bit, but better.

I made it so in my other hack that the hammer fails when you have a different status but left body change alone.

That will work!  Well, if you're willing to apply that here.

Got any other ideas?

Not yet.  I'll let you know if I think of something.

Honestly, I didn't even know I wanted that rubberband EXP gain until you created it.  As TFS Vegeta once said, "Never in my life have I needed something so much and never known until I received it."

I think that Hawk is actually far ahead with his critical rate; both get about +100 damage per crit but Hawk attacks twice as often.

I don't know about "far", but I suppose you're right if you consider crits.  Still, the gap decreased significantly, in a very very positive light.  And double hitters can miss due to the pushback of the first hit -- I think there's some sort of ACC effect, depending on how far the target is from the melee attack.  I'm not entirely sure about this though.

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #231 on: November 16, 2021, 09:32:37 pm »
So basically you guys want to make an easy game even easier so that a child can blow through it and never have enemies do any real damage to them.

Enemies are not exactly spamming spells out you all day you’re pretty much just nursing them to doing only Malay against you. And pretty much 90% of all bosses damage are their skills so having a high denial counter means boss is just stand around doing nothing.

You are taking the assertion to the extreme. As I said, it's not about extremes either way. There is nothing strategical about getting spammed with counters and dying and having to resort to melee or Lv1 CS just to avoid getting wiped. It's not about being babied, it's about a good risk/reward balance.

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #232 on: November 17, 2021, 12:35:41 pm »
I am of the minority position that Luck Denies Counter should NOT be incredibly strong because Luck is also granting crit, better luck on chests, and reduced status ailment times. Just throwing it out that I think Hawkeye with maxed Luck only denying 44% of boss counters is ALREADY very strong.

No need to make Luck overpowered.
I think the value for 15-18 luck (30~37%) against a final boss is ok but going all the way to 22 should give a tad more than just 7% denial extra.


Does anyone know the ROM address for the boss music table? Specifically which boss gets what music? I want to change to byte for Mispolm to be the same as Genova has
I'd take that too!
Though I don't think it is a table and more just part of the boss start event.


Huh?  I thought the recent patch only denies COUNTERS, not regular skills.  For example, if Dangard want to use his Air Slasher, he'll use it 100% without being affected by player's Luck (the recent fix uses the attacker's Luck to calculate the denial chance, and enemy's non-counter attacks don't use player's Luck).  On the other hand, if you attack Bill/Ben with Fireball, Luck may deny Bill/Ben his counter.

Or do I have that wrong?
You got that right.
If they naturally decide to shadow dive it will still go through 100%,
luck only lessens the chance they will use shadow dive after getting hit by spells or techs.


Here's one.  Could you make it so that outside the battle, if you don't hold the B button, you're running? (and if you're holding the B button, it walks)  I'm fairly certain many games today does that, and it's wonderful.  Sometimes, when in battle, and I kill a group of the enemies, and I run towards the next group in the same field, I accidentally end up using the tech, because I'm holding the B button to run towards them.  This will solve that problem.
Not "possible"; if I did that you would also run in battle and that is a balance change that goes too far for my patch here.


That will work!  Well, if you're willing to apply that here.
"Want", I kinda should unless we want to keep 2 items and one spell useless.


I don't know about "far", but I suppose you're right if you consider crits.  Still, the gap decreased significantly, in a very very positive light.  And double hitters can miss due to the pushback of the first hit -- I think there's some sort of ACC effect, depending on how far the target is from the melee attack.  I'm not entirely sure about this though.
I'm fine with that; the pushback from hits kinda makes Hawk (and Kevin) the higher skill ceiling with higher max dps option.

In doubt the hitboxes are questionable.

soul_knight

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #233 on: November 17, 2021, 05:58:18 pm »
Not "possible"; if I did that you would also run in battle and that is a balance change that goes too far for my patch here.

I see.  Indeed, if you'd be moving super fast in the battle, then players would just... run through most of the enemies to the save point, and then level grind.  Although I'm sure there are people who would actually want that, I frown upon that.  I want the game to encourage players to fight.

I wish you can make it so that battle stance would make the vanilla speed, and run on the non-battle parts (but still have the option to walk by holding B).  I don't like holding B button wherever I go (seriously, is there ever a time where you don't run when not in battle?).  Oh well.

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #234 on: November 17, 2021, 06:58:48 pm »
"Want", I kinda should unless we want to keep 2 items and one spell useless.

I'd be grateful if you "fixed" that.  I actually thought about making the Chibikko Hammer into ST (which is easy enough to make), but it still would have made Puipui Grass and ST Tinkle Rain useless anyways (which is more than half the game).  At least, for Item Shop patch users (you can't buy Mama Poto Oil in the black market there).



@Red Soul

Hey, if you're starting another game with v1.8, can you try out the game with Angela DD and Carlie DD? (3rd player can be whoever, and it can be whichever class with whichever route)  With Max MP lowered due to PIE being the only thing that affects MP, I want to see how that'll affect their gameplay, esp the middle parts of the game.  Their attack spells' power went up (with the updated weapons), so maybe it'll balance out?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 12:41:59 am by hmsong »

Pethronos

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #235 on: November 18, 2021, 02:07:34 am »
Hi guys! SD3: 2 Players Restoration hack is out now :D

Specially for those who use the Spanish translation (and want to combine it with different hacks) or who have a very customized rom and simply wanna revert the 3 players hack changes and are lazy to create a new custom rom from scratch. Hope to be helpful to someone ;D

http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/6340/

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #236 on: November 18, 2021, 02:45:40 am »
@Red Soul

Hey, if you're starting another game with v1.8, can you try out the game with Angela DD and Carlie DD? (3rd player can be whoever, and it can be whichever class with whichever route)  With Max MP lowered due to PIE being the only thing that affects MP, I want to see how that'll affect their gameplay, esp the middle parts of the game.  Their attack spells' power went up (with the updated weapons), so maybe it'll balance out?

I certainly intend to play with 1.8 next, but wouldn't you rather have me collect those end game damage range numbers for you first?

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #237 on: November 18, 2021, 04:03:33 am »
I certainly intend to play with 1.8 next, but wouldn't you rather have me collect those end game damage range numbers for you first?

Yes, absolutely.  I meant after everything's over.  I said what I said, because it seemed like you were almost finished with the game.

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #238 on: November 18, 2021, 05:29:41 am »
Yes, absolutely.  I meant after everything's over.  I said what I said, because it seemed like you were almost finished with the game.

Indeed, I'm at Dragon's Hole/Maw now. I believe the enemies you'd like damage checked are there.

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #239 on: November 18, 2021, 12:12:39 pm »
I'd be grateful if you "fixed" that.
Will do but not this month anymore.

Would be nice if those that play it would provide their feedback to my changes (spelldamage, casttime, counter rate, exp rate, crits, evade rate, ...) by then in case something needs further tweaking.