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Author Topic: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion  (Read 77576 times)

soul_knight

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #200 on: November 13, 2021, 07:06:19 pm »
try it with example values:
If I told you to choose the higher number out of 5 and 10, what would you do? multiply them!???

No, I would choose 10.  So I guess that's how max() works.  It simply chooses the higher number between the two.  Boy, that's gonna suck for Angela.

Bugfix v1.8 is up.  Everyone check it out.  Seems like there was a lot of changes.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2021, 11:36:41 pm by soul_knight »

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #201 on: November 14, 2021, 03:56:38 am »
@praetarius5018

Quote from: praetarius5018
vanilla: monster always counters spells/techs
my patch (next update): luck determines chance for those counters
10C629 - 80: monster never counter
all three: bosses can use their "desperation" moves 100%

Hey, I was testing out 10C629 80, and indeed, the monster never counters.  So a different related question.  What's the difference between 10C629 80 and 10C62B EA EA EA?  Is it the compatibility issue with your recent bugfix patch? (ex: the new Luck Denies Counter)  Or maybe there's some sort of flaw with 10C62B EA EA EA?

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #202 on: November 14, 2021, 04:35:42 am »
Hey, I was testing out 10C629 80, and indeed, the monster never counters.  So a different related question.  What's the difference between 10C629 80 and 10C62B EA EA EA?  Is it the compatibility issue with your recent bugfix patch? (ex: the new Luck Denies Counter)  Or maybe there's some sort of flaw with 10C62B EA EA EA?
think of it like this:

vanilla code:
Code: [Select]
if (X or Y or Z) {
   checkAI();
}

10C629 80:
Code: [Select]
if (X or Y /*or Z*/) {
   checkAI();
}

10C62B EA EA EA:
Code: [Select]
if (X or Y or Z) {
   //checkAI();
}

aitchfactor

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #203 on: November 14, 2021, 05:02:09 am »
Well, I'm basically a newcomer here and I've discovered this thread after I've submitted the relevant hack, but I recently slapped together a very basic hack that only changes a few drum samples (kick, snare, tambourine, snare "reverb"), since I've always felt they were lacking in comparison to Secret of Mana. Of the changes I've made I've tried to accommodate for the two samples I know for sure are also used for sound effects, but I've completely replaced the snare and I'm hoping it won't have any adverse effects. Also, since the only change has been to replace some bits of sample data with another, I think it'll probably be compatible with most other hacks.

Here's a couple examples of how my custom samples sound:
https://files.catbox.moe/iqrb3l.ogg (Hightension Wire)
https://files.catbox.moe/wcfas8.ogg (Left-Handed Wolf)
Unfortunately some songs end up sounding slightly worse imo, like this one:
https://files.catbox.moe/ve1day.ogg (Weird Counterpoint)

So, is anyone usually interested in this sort of thing? And has someone done something like this before?

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #204 on: November 14, 2021, 08:09:04 am »
think of it like this:

vanilla code:
Code: [Select]
if (X or Y or Z) {
   checkAI();
}

10C629 80:
Code: [Select]
if (X or Y /*or Z*/) {
   checkAI();
}

10C62B EA EA EA:
Code: [Select]
if (X or Y or Z) {
   //checkAI();
}

So, let me see if I understand correctly, because I don't know what "/*" and "//" means.  Assuming 10C629 80 is #2, and 10C62B EA EA EA is #3...

#2:  If the condition X or Y is fulfilled, AI does something (in this case, AI uses a skill).
#3:  If the condition X or Y or Z is fulfilled, AI does nothing.

In other words, #3 may prevent enemies from using their skills in something other than counters of player magic.  Do I understand correctly?



@aitchfactor

Boy, do I suck at recognizing music.  Can you post the vanilla musics too, so that it's easier to compare?

For your question if people are interested, I don't know.  I'm only speaking for myself, but I never even thought about it.  Having said that, people often don't know how much they wanted something, until the said something comes into existence.  Perhaps what you did may be one of such thing.  The only way to find out is to create it, and see people's reaction.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2021, 08:16:39 am by hmsong »

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #205 on: November 14, 2021, 08:44:59 am »
So, let me see if I understand correctly, because I don't know what "/*" and "//" means.
Ok, now I've literally no idea anymore on what level of programming experience you are; a bit earlier we had the discussion about potential difference in order of operation for math on asm level but here now you don't know about uncommenting. :o

Assuming 10C629 80 is #2, and 10C62B EA EA EA is #3...

#2:  If the condition X or Y is fulfilled, AI does something (in this case, AI uses a skill).
#3:  If the condition X or Y or Z is fulfilled, AI does nothing.

In other words, #3 may prevent enemies from using their skills in something other than counters of player magic.  Do I understand correctly?
But yes you understood it correctly.

Pethronos

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #206 on: November 14, 2021, 01:06:16 pm »
Well, I'm basically a newcomer here and I've discovered this thread after I've submitted the relevant hack, but I recently slapped together a very basic hack that only changes a few drum samples (kick, snare, tambourine, snare "reverb"), since I've always felt they were lacking in comparison to Secret of Mana. Of the changes I've made I've tried to accommodate for the two samples I know for sure are also used for sound effects, but I've completely replaced the snare and I'm hoping it won't have any adverse effects. Also, since the only change has been to replace some bits of sample data with another, I think it'll probably be compatible with most other hacks.

Here's a couple examples of how my custom samples sound:
https://files.catbox.moe/iqrb3l.ogg (Hightension Wire)
https://files.catbox.moe/wcfas8.ogg (Left-Handed Wolf)
Unfortunately some songs end up sounding slightly worse imo, like this one:
https://files.catbox.moe/ve1day.ogg (Weird Counterpoint)

So, is anyone usually interested in this sort of thing? And has someone done something like this before?

Personally I love this kind of stuff. You can find similar hacks in RHDN, i.e. sample improvements for some Megadrive/Genesis games, by Master Linkuei (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5508/).

SD3 snare is really distinctive, maybe... too much. I'm sure that some people will thank you for sharing a more SoM reminiscent drum set. Thank you!  :beer:

Messianic

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #207 on: November 14, 2021, 03:30:48 pm »
Slightly off topic, but I despise Mispolm’s battle music being the seaside cave music. I also notice Genova’s music seems to only be played for him. What is the ROM address for Mispolm’s battle music, and what byte would I have to change it to to give Genova’s music to Mispolm?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2021, 04:16:41 pm by Messianic »

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #208 on: November 14, 2021, 06:39:20 pm »
Ok, now I've literally no idea anymore on what level of programming experience you are; a bit earlier we had the discussion about potential difference in order of operation for math on asm level but here now you don't know about uncommenting. :o

There's a reason for that.  I'm sure you now have a vague feeling, but I'll say it anyways.  I actually never learned anything about official programming.  I started learning (when I literally had no knowledge about hacking) when the guy who worked on Secret of Mana Turbo (Queue) taught me how to edit some of the things he created.  Actually, there were multiple people who taught me, but Queue was the main guy.  That was about two years ago.  I would ask him, "I have this idea, and if I wanted to change X into Y, how would I do that?", and he would say, "Download HxH, open the ROM with that, search for address ZZZZZZ, and change the value there from XX to YY."  And thus began.  I would often have some ideas here and there, and when I ask him to do something and it was something easy, he would then tell me the addresses of how to employ my ideas, and then tell me to work on it myself.  His ZPS made things easier to understand, because he would often leave comments on why and how he did something for his compilation hack.

In short, the only knowledge I have is how to edit something, if I know the address, and what each values mean.  For example, my biggest hack for SD3 is the Class Balance patch.  And you taught me the specific address of character learning table and the spell edits (starting with Diamond Missile), and told me that each spell was 17 bytes (one of the first posts).  You also told me what some of those 17 bytes meant (such as how power of spells worked).  The spell orders, I got that from gamefaqs PAR code guide.  And I lined up all of the 17 bytes in a line, to see if I can see any pattern.  From there, I was able to edit things to my image and test things out.

As you can see, my knowledge is almost non-existent, esp the basic knowledge.  When we had the discussion about potential difference in order of operation for math on asm level, I spoke based solely on my gut feeling, rather than a specific knowledge about programming.  It was someone else who explained what I tried to explain.  Actually, I still don't know much about asm (if at all).  I know you tried to teach me that, but it was... above my level of understanding, as it turned out.  I still don't know how the operation for math on asm works.  For example, you told me the rough addresses and where the end math functions are (ex: evade), but I have no idea what any of the values mean (What value is "+"?  What value is "Agility"?  Some seem to be more than 1 byte, Etc).  Kinda like that. :P

Despite my limited knowledge though, I was able to create these things, all thanks to you teaching me (some things I learned, other things I failed to learn).  I think it was also you who told me about MapJester, which allowed me to create the Black Rabite hack and Better Monsters hack.

Btw, what would happen if I used 10C62B EA EA EA with your v1.8?  Would some of the things you did in your hack not work properly?  This is just out of curiosity, as I would still use 10C629 80 (I'll post them today, as well as the evade change hack).
« Last Edit: November 14, 2021, 07:09:33 pm by hmsong »

aitchfactor

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #209 on: November 14, 2021, 08:07:15 pm »
Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully people will want to try my hack out once it's approved.

Boy, do I suck at recognizing music.  Can you post the vanilla musics too, so that it's easier to compare?

https://files.catbox.moe/4azww1.ogg (Hightension Wire)
https://files.catbox.moe/9tkk1a.ogg (Left-Handed Wolf)
https://files.catbox.moe/5dgfld.ogg (Weird Counterpoint)

Happy to provide any other comparisons if desired.

Uberdubie

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #210 on: November 14, 2021, 11:22:20 pm »
Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully people will want to try my hack out once it's approved.

https://files.catbox.moe/4azww1.ogg (Hightension Wire)
https://files.catbox.moe/9tkk1a.ogg (Left-Handed Wolf)
https://files.catbox.moe/5dgfld.ogg (Weird Counterpoint)

Happy to provide any other comparisons if desired.

These are fantastic!  I already checked out the vanilla versions to compare on Youtube because I found this very interesting and worthwhile.  Definitely one of those things I didn't know I wanted, but now it's needed lol.  Out of these samples they are ALL sound incredible imo, including Weird Counterpoint which you didn't think sounded as good -- I beg to differ! :thumbsup:

Any chance you can post a few more samples of your versions, specifically those that you found to be much worse (such as The Sacrifice, Part Two)?  I love the nostalgic SoM sound to them, on top of the fact you did a great job with these.  I definitely plan to get around to trying this out for myself when I get the chance!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 04:20:50 am by Uberdubie »

aitchfactor

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #211 on: November 15, 2021, 12:38:13 am »
These are fantastic!  I already checked out the vanilla versions to compare on Youtube because I found this very interesting and worthwhile.  Definitely one of those things I didn't know I wanted, but now it's needed lol.  Out of these samples they are ALL sound incredible imo, including Weird Counterpoint which you didn't think sounded as good -- I beg to differ! :thumbsup:

Any chance you can post a few more samples of your versions, specifically those that you found to be much worse (such as The Sacrifice, Part Two)?  I love the nostgalic SoM sound to them, on top of the fact you did a great job with these.  I definitely plan to get around to trying this out for myself when I get the chance!
Thank you! Here's a zip file with the other three tracks I consider worsened (The Sacrifice Part Two, Rolling Cradle, Three of Darkside) and a couple other picks, in their original and remixed form. https://files.catbox.moe/wney4a.zip
Now I'd say the worst off is either The Sacrifice, Part Two or Three of Darkside.

soul_knight

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #212 on: November 15, 2021, 02:56:51 am »
@praetarius5018

Hey.  For your recent bugfix, how does Luck Denies Counter work?  I know it says, "(15+target level/2) for regular enemies," but what does that mean?  For example, let's say that my Luck is 10.  And the normal enemy's level is Lv21.  If I use some magic on the enemy, it's (15+21/2) = 25.5.  So the counter deny chance is 10/25.5, which is 39.2%?

Also, for the added exp rubberband mechanic, the txt seem to imply that I get more exp if my highest leveled char is lower level than the enemy I kill, but how does that work?  Is it what you said earlier in another post?  +25% for -1 level, +50% for -2 level, and +100% for -3 or more levels?

I saw that you changed the spell strength will now depend on weapons.  That's cool.  Does that apply to enemies as well?  I don't know what weapon they wear, but I guess they're wearing something.

When I leveled up Angela and did not give PIE, I saw that my Max MP still went up.  Is that normal?

So I guess there's ghost ship glitch if 3 player hack is used.  Based on the description, if I leave player 1 as ghost, and use the other 2 players, but I save and load, then the game crashes?

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #213 on: November 15, 2021, 03:01:44 am »
I ran a quick test and aitchfactor's "Seiken Densetsu 3 (Japan) sample swap.ips" patch worked fine in my current ROM, even when applied last (it contains Praetarius' Bugfix 1.7, HMSong's Class Balance Bundle and Item Shop Changes, the fan translation as well as a myriad of cosmetic patches.

I will keep testing, but it seems to work fine (I assume the ROM needs to be unheadered and users patching in the audio changes later need to be mindful of this).

November 15, 2021, 03:05:25 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
So I guess there's ghost ship glitch if 3 player hack is used.  Based on the description, if I leave player 1 as ghost, and use the other 2 players, but I save and load, then the game crashes?

I believe that's what happens. In case it renders the save file useless, I'd make a copy somewhere before getting onto the ship.

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #214 on: November 15, 2021, 01:09:44 pm »
Hey.  For your recent bugfix, how does Luck Denies Counter work?  I know it says, "(15+target level/2) for regular enemies," but what does that mean?  For example, let's say that my Luck is 10.  And the normal enemy's level is Lv21.  If I use some magic on the enemy, it's (15+21/2) = 25.5.  So the counter deny chance is 10/25.5, which is 39.2%?
You got that right.


Also, for the added exp rubberband mechanic, the txt seem to imply that I get more exp if my highest leveled char is lower level than the enemy I kill, but how does that work?  Is it what you said earlier in another post?  +25% for -1 level, +50% for -2 level, and +100% for -3 or more levels
Yeah, like that except the typical rounding issues; and you get at least 1 exp more per level.


I saw that you changed the spell strength will now depend on weapons.  That's cool.  Does that apply to enemies as well?  I don't know what weapon they wear, but I guess they're wearing something.
It explicitly says "spell strength for player"; monster keep whatever they had before.
Also for the record all equip slots on monster are empty.


When I leveled up Angela and did not give PIE, I saw that my Max MP still went up.  Is that normal?
Yes that should be right; you always have a base value of HP&MP for a given level and then add 1.5xVIT to HP and 1xPIE to MP. E.g. lv50 Angela has 79 mp base.


So I guess there's ghost ship glitch if 3 player hack is used.  Based on the description, if I leave player 1 as ghost, and use the other 2 players, but I save and load, then the game crashes?
The whole ghost ship save slot is bugged; if you save there while one party member is missing and then load the same it either crashes immediatly or after you beat the boss.
Also the game is not too happy when player 1 controls no character so you should never do the ghostification event as player 1 when player 2&3 are active.


There's a reason for that.  I'm sure you now have a vague feeling, but I'll say it anyways.  I actually never learned anything about official programming.
I guessed as much, which then confused me a lot when you started with the order of operating crap.


What value is "+"?  What value is "Agility"?  Some seem to be more than 1 byte, Etc
And that's where the fun starts :p
You have no standalone "+".
You have to also tell it "+" what;
e.g. "+1" is just 1A,
a fix "+x" is 69 xx (or 69 xx xx if we're in 16bit mode)
or if you want to add the value from address 7E2000 you do 6F 00 20 7E.
And for something like +AGL you'll get into pointer fun and then do e.g. 7D xx xx or 71 xx depending on how you want to get screwed by pointers.
there are at least 16 "+something" codes, another equal sized batch for "-something" and except for x2 or x0.5 multiplication does not exist in some simple fashion...

and lets just not get into the mess that is the compressed code, there nothing makes sense anymore.


Btw, what would happen if I used 10C62B EA EA EA with your v1.8?  Would some of the things you did in your hack not work properly?  This is just out of curiosity, as I would still use 10C629 80 (I'll post them today, as well as the evade change hack).
It would still work it would just maybe disable some other (re)actions we want to keep alive. There's technically no real restriction where the program can come from to arrive at 10C62B, so there could be a dozen edge cases out there that want to call the "reaction logic" there but now can't.
If you happen to have heard of the horrible command "GOTO" in higher level languages, that exists here too ofc.

soul_knight

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #215 on: November 15, 2021, 06:56:36 pm »

Hey.  For your recent bugfix, how does Luck Denies Counter work?  I know it says, "(15+target level/2) for regular enemies," but what does that mean?  For example, let's say that my Luck is 10.  And the normal enemy's level is Lv21.  If I use some magic on the enemy, it's (15+21/2) = 25.5.  So the counter deny chance is 10/25.5, which is 39.2%?

You got that right.

Hmm.  Based on that calculation, even Hawkeye, who can have 22 Luck (enemy level will probably around 50), he'll only deny 55% of enemy skills (and 44% for bosses).  That seems... quite small.  Wasn't the idea to be around 70~80% denial if Luck is kept up for Hawkeye? (if it's too low, then it'll force players to stick with the boring melee, as the cost of using skill will outweigh the benefit of using skills, just like what people did for vanilla)  I feel like instead of "+15", it should be "+5", to match the previous "out of 30" for regular enemies.  That was a good number, and "+15" for bosses (instead of +25), esp if you consider that bosses' HP threshold moves are now guaranteed.

Edit:  I just did calculation for Lv21 enemies and 13 Luck Hawkeye (maximum for Lv21 Hawkeye).  If it's +5, then the denial is ~84% (13/(5+21/2)).  Based on the pattern, I'm guessing the lower level you are with Luck kept up (and fighting the enemies of same level), the higher chance of denial.  I'm actually okay with high denial percentage though, esp in the early parts when you have less resource.  So I still think that +5 would be a better number.

It explicitly says "spell strength for player"; monster keep whatever they had before.
Also for the record all equip slots on monster are empty.

Whoops.  Sorry.  Apparently, I suck at reading.

Yes that should be right; you always have a base value of HP&MP for a given level and then add 1.5xVIT to HP and 1xPIE to MP. E.g. lv50 Angela has 79 mp base.

So level 50 Angela DD will have 97 MP?  Can you get higher MP if you level up more? (I typically end up with Lv53 characters by the end of the game).

The whole ghost ship save slot is bugged; if you save there while one party member is missing and then load the same it either crashes immediatly or after you beat the boss.
Also the game is not too happy when player 1 controls no character so you should never do the ghostification event as player 1 when player 2&3 are active.

Thanks for the info.  No more 3-player patch for my rom.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 07:09:59 pm by soul_knight »

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #216 on: November 15, 2021, 11:34:53 pm »
And that's where the fun starts :p
You have no standalone "+".
You have to also tell it "+" what;
e.g. "+1" is just 1A,
a fix "+x" is 69 xx (or 69 xx xx if we're in 16bit mode)
or if you want to add the value from address 7E2000 you do 6F 00 20 7E.
And for something like +AGL you'll get into pointer fun and then do e.g. 7D xx xx or 71 xx depending on how you want to get screwed by pointers.
there are at least 16 "+something" codes, another equal sized batch for "-something" and except for x2 or x0.5 multiplication does not exist in some simple fashion...

'_';;

I got 69 xx (or 69 xx xx).  But how did +1 result in 1A?  I doubt +15 is FA, because that'll result in that you can't use any number bigger than 15.  And the rest... well, jeez.  I'm amazed how far I got with my extremely limited skills.  It's like I wrote a book without knowing all the alphabets.

It would still work it would just maybe disable some other (re)actions we want to keep alive. There's technically no real restriction where the program can come from to arrive at 10C62B, so there could be a dozen edge cases out there that want to call the "reaction logic" there but now can't.
If you happen to have heard of the horrible command "GOTO" in higher level languages, that exists here too ofc.

Yeah, I guess so.  Well, I updated to 10C629 80.  If anyone notices something, I suppose they'll notify me or something.

Regarding soul_knight's opinion on Luck Denies Skills, I second his opinion.  The logic of his argument makes sense -- if the denial is too low, then it'll just make players go back to the vanilla behavior, which is melee melee melee (which will result in Angela doing nothing).  I think +5 is indeed good number (although I think regular enemies shouldn't counter at all, and bosses should have low counter chance).  It'll make players think, "I like to use skills, but it has 20% to make enemies counter.  Gah, it's worth it!"  I like the sound of that.  I mean, casters like Angela will already have tough time raising Luck, because she'll be too busy raising VIT, INT, and PIE (no time to raise Luck until the end of the game).  And if it's only ~50%, then it's even worse.



@For anyone interested:

Here are the boss levels, in order of encounter (vanilla):

Full Metal Hagger: 4
Machine Golem: 4
Jewel Eater: 6
Tzenker: 10
Genova: 12
Bill/Ben: 12
Gorva: 13
Machine Golem: 18
Bill/Ben: 18
Lugar: 21
Gildervine: 24
Godbeasts: 29~40 (+2 for each godbeast kills, until lv40)
Zable-Fahr: 46
Darkshine Knight/Deathjester/Jagan: 44
The three bosses inside the final dungeon: 45~47
Koren/Heath/Bigeau: 48, except Bigeau, who is 51
Final bosses: 50
Black Rabite: 99
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 11:56:58 pm by hmsong »

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #217 on: November 16, 2021, 03:01:15 am »
@HMSong:

I know it wasn't exactly what you specificed, but I downloaded a different save to test some things and I have some field data for you:

Quote
vs. Lv41 Guardian

Lv44 Sword Master Duran
     20str/Levateinn (297 atk)

127-128 (224-225)


Lv44 Ninja Master Hawk
     17 str/Acala (258 atk)

67-68 x2 (168-172)

Lv44 Death Hand Kevin
     18 str/Rotten Knuckle (271 atk)

77-87 x2 (162-163) Daytime

97-98 x2 (182-183) Nighttime

It's mostly empirical data but I hope it is worth for something. Numbers in parentheses are criticals.
Oddly, NM Hawk didn't fire off a single critical without energy ball being applied first, Kevin's crits came off only rarely.

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #218 on: November 16, 2021, 07:37:50 am »
@HMSong:

I know it wasn't exactly what you specificed, but I downloaded a different save to test some things and I have some field data for you:

It's mostly empirical data but I hope it is worth for something. Numbers in parentheses are criticals.
Oddly, NM Hawk didn't fire off a single critical without energy ball being applied first, Kevin's crits came off only rarely.

Thanks for field testing.  I see that Duran will actually outdamage Hawk by the end, at least for non-DD Duran vs DL Hawk.  In your provided data, Hawk's STR was maxed (17 is max STR for Ninja Master), while Duran's STR was not maxed (21 is max STR for all Duran classes, except DD, who has 22 STR).  Not sure about DD Hawk (18) vs DD Duran (22), but they ought to be close.  I'm not sure how strong Guardian's DEF is, relative to other later monsters, but I'm guessing Duran will outdamage Hawk even more as the game progresses, because their DEF will continue to go up.  Please keep me updated for Lv45~47 enemies (they have the same stats, except HP) -- specifically, against Dark Lord, High Wizard, and Great Demon (they have various DEF stats).  I want to see how Kevin (non-werewolf) and Hawk do against Duran with 21 STR.  Thanks in advance.

If possible, can you keep Kevin at 18 STR for the field test vs lv45~47 enemies? (instead of raising it to 19, which is max for Death Hand)  Average max STR for Kevin is 18 (Hawk = 17, Duran = 21), and I want to compare the info regarding those guys.  The weapons should be the same level though (all Pedan, or all final).



@praetarius5018

If possible, can you make it so that AntiMagic nulls the magic resist?  Not Immunity though (as you pointed out, that'll make Moon Saber way too powerful against many bosses).  I actually hope AntiMagic nulls reflect/absorb/immune/resist for all elements except Moon (to specifically nerf Moon Saber) and possibly Leaf, but I don't think you'll like that.

Also, could you make it so that Poison SE cannot be overwritten by Chibikko SE? (if it's applied, it'll cause both Poison and Chibikko SE)  That way, things like Tinkle Rain, Puipui Grass, and Mama Poto Oil won't become obsolete the moment you get Chibikko Hammer (which is quite early in the game).  Only when it comes to poison and chibikko SEs though (I think other SEs will conflict badly with each other, such as Chibikko/Freeze/Moogle/Stone).  I do think other SEs should be able to overwrite other SEs (which is vanilla behavior), as that'll make Moogle Belt very unique and useful (which can only be gotten from Black Rabite).

Btw, I absolutely love the idea of exp bonus if underleveled.  That is an amazing idea, and such anti-frustration feature.  I absolutely love anti-frustration ideas.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2021, 08:03:40 am by hmsong »

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #219 on: November 16, 2021, 12:43:29 pm »
I feel like instead of "+15", it should be "+5", to match the previous "out of 30" for regular enemies.  That was a good number, and "+15" for bosses (instead of +25), esp if you consider that bosses' HP threshold moves are now guaranteed.
I'll consider it.


So level 50 Angela DD will have 97 MP?  Can you get higher MP if you level up more? (I typically end up with Lv53 characters by the end of the game).
You get from Lv45 to 54 no MP increases but afterwards everyone gains 1-2 MP per level up to a cap of 99.

Lv45 is 49 MP for Duran, 54 for Kevin, 59 for Hawk, 79 for Angela and Charlie and 65 for Lise.



Thanks for the info.  No more 3-player patch for my rom.
You can still use it when you play with 2 buddies, you should just send one of the players to grab some sandwiches or something when the ghostship starts.


But how did +1 result in 1A?  I doubt +15 is FA, because that'll result in that you can't use any number bigger than 15.
1A is just a shorthand like "x++" for "x=x+1") in most modern languages. FA pulls the topmost number from the stack in shoves it into the accumulator X; any form of stack manipulation without knowing wtf you do is a fast track to crashing the whole emulator.

I think it'd be easier to think of it like functions with 0-3 bytes worth of parameters instead of your standard math operators.

Code: [Select]
1A:
function addOne() {
   A++;
}

69:
function add(value) {
   A=A+value;
}


I mean, casters like Angela will already have tough time raising Luck, because she'll be too busy raising VIT, INT, and PIE (no time to raise Luck until the end of the game).
That's not really a good argument.
Angela can skip on STR and AGL.
Melee can really only skip on PIE (+1 MP each is the lowest priority in my book).
STR for damage. VIT to stay alive vs random mobs. INT to stay alive vs bosses. AGL to hit (=damage) and evade. LUCK for crits (=damage).


If possible, can you make it so that AntiMagic nulls the magic resist?  Not Immunity though (as you pointed out, that'll make Moon Saber way too powerful against many bosses).  I actually hope AntiMagic nulls reflect/absorb/immune/resist for all elements except Moon (to specifically nerf Moon Saber) and possibly Leaf, but I don't think you'll like that.
I'd find it weird if anti-magic removes the lesser "resistance" and the higher "absorb" but leaves the middle ground "immunity" alone.


Also, could you make it so that Poison SE cannot be overwritten by Chibikko SE? (if it's applied, it'll cause both Poison and Chibikko SE)  That way, things like Tinkle Rain, Puipui Grass, and Mama Poto Oil won't become obsolete the moment you get Chibikko Hammer (which is quite early in the game).  Only when it comes to poison and chibikko SEs though (I think other SEs will conflict badly with each other, such as Chibikko/Freeze/Moogle/Stone).  I do think other SEs should be able to overwrite other SEs (which is vanilla behavior), as that'll make Moogle Belt very unique and useful (which can only be gotten from Black Rabite).
I made it so in my other hack that the hammer fails when you have a different status but left body change alone.


Btw, I absolutely love the idea of exp bonus if underleveled.  That is an amazing idea, and such anti-frustration feature.  I absolutely love anti-frustration ideas.
Got any other ideas?


Thanks for field testing.  I see that Duran will actually outdamage Hawk by the end, at least for non-DD Duran vs DL Hawk
I think that Hawk is actually far ahead with his critical rate; both get about +100 damage per crit but Hawk attacks twice as often.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2021, 12:49:24 pm by praetarius5018 »