Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion

[Zimgief]

The reason why the boost would apply only to Angela, roleplay-wise, is because it is a wand, a weapon dedicated to spell casting.
Carlie's flails are made to smash heads!

Sure, ideally, Carlie should have a reason to care about her weapons too. But her spells are already fast, and she is already quite a capable character. Angela on the contrary needs help. Maybe we will manage to find a use for Carlie's weapons, but faster casting doesn't make sense for flails.

As long as her level 3 spells are the better option at the price of more mana, it seems fine to me.

I'm quoting myself to add something else: level 3 spells have the benefit of trigering counters less often (fewer and stronger spells, so fewer counters in average).

[praetarius5018]

Also, I always felt the last class changes come too late to be relevant for most of the game. 15/30 instead of 18/38 are much more sensible level thresholds in my opinion).

Changing the required level is not an option.

The reason why the boost would apply only to Angela, roleplay-wise, is because it is a wand, a weapon dedicated to spell casting.
Carlie's flails are made to smash heads!

Then they f(l)ail at their job.

Sure, ideally, Carlie should have a reason to care about her weapons too. But her spells are already fast, and she is already quite a capable character. Angela on the contrary needs help. Maybe we will manage to find a use for Carlie's weapons, but faster casting doesn't make sense for flails.

Maybe then the problem is that heal spells are too fast.

Instead of flat -cast time we should consider something like:
real cast time = (base of spell + base of char in base class) x 15 / (15 + weapon rank)
this would charlie a (1+60) x 15 / (15+15) = 30 cast heal light instead of 2
and angela (150+60) x 15 / (15+15) = 105 cast L3 spells instead of 151 (or 121 with -x)

I'm quoting myself to add something else: level 3 spells have the benefit of trigering counters less often (fewer and stronger spells, so fewer counters in average).

By the time the counter logic is checked any track of what spell triggered it is gone.
Not that half her classes even get L3s.

[hmsong]

@praetarius5018

vanilla: monster always counters spells/techs
my patch (next update): luck determines chance for those counters
10C629 - F0: monster never counter
all three: bosses can use their "desperation" moves 100%

Got it.  Thanks.  I shall update that.  Also, wow, really?  1 byte?  Holy crap.

the MT techs are just random skills they already can use at will.
afaik the basilisks that grow into petribirds and the pakkun babies that grow into lizards are the only threshold actions for regular monster.

Really?  I noticed that the enemies use their skills (not just techs, but whatever their signature moves, like Hand Axe for Goblins) when I damage them to certain point.  Some enemies, like Great Demons, you see them casting when their HP is low, so I try to kill them before they can finish their cast.  I'm sure you noticed that too.

I think that goes too far and would make walnuts and leaf saber way less useful than they are.

Hmm.  But Angela with 18 PIE (that's the max PIE for DD Angela) should be able to reach 99 Max MP though, right?  In vanilla, she reached 99 Max MP by Lv45 (21 INT + 17 PIE).  I don't know how Max MP number works, but Angela not having 99 Max MP sounds... weird.  DD Angela is already the worst of Angela's classes (in vanilla, she doesn't even get MT Lv2 spells), but nerfing her even further would be... bad.  Maybe you can make it so it's [(PIE * 3) + Level] or something.  She starts with 16 MP, and reaches 99MP by Lv46 (assuming 18 PIE).  Or maybe you can use different formula and give Angela some extra MP to begin with.

Same as I could give L2/3 techs a damage nerf only for monster - maybe I should do that as well..

But not for bosses.  Please not for bosses.  I like how Lugar/BillBen can do lots of damage with their techs (it's what made them unique).  As you probably know, enemies' techs have their own category for skill section, so I was able to nerf their powers (only MT Lv3 techs, as I like ST techs to be powerful)... except for werewolves and Shadowzeros.  Werewolves, I'm not too worried about, because there are multiple different ways to get around that... but Shadowzeros.  Oh god, Shadowzeros.  Honestly, very few people fight them, due to high risk and low reward.  I heard there's a glitch that made Shadowzeros use YOUR stats, instead of their own stats.  Maybe you can fix that.

Lv1 spells are 60, Lv2 spells 120, Lv3 spells like Ancient have a massive 150 cast time.
+1 for her having 2 class changes. -60 for best staff.
So it goes from 61, 121, 151 to 1, 61, 91...
imo that makes the Lv1 spells OP since you can get "91" out in the time she'd use one Lv3 spell.

I'd maybe agree to such a decrease instead of the class based reduction.
Though I still think a simple modifier to the heal/damage formula would be more tangible for the player; maybe both.

The goal is to make Angela's staff worth buying, right?  I mean, given how popular that "insta cast" pack from your bugfix patch is, I feel like it's something people would want.  If you think -5 cast time for each staff is too much, then maybe you can do -4, or -3, or whatever works.  Again, this is just food for thought.

But please, no buff for Carlie (at least, for spell related things).  Like I said before, Carlie is already too powerful with MT Heal Light in her 1st class up, and insta MT Heal Light by 2nd class up (she's at the very top of my tier list).

Going for an Angela only change seems weird to me; I get that she would need a buff in some way (see above).
At least Charlie would have to get a "need" weapon upgrades since she also has little use for it currently.

I might be willing to give Angela/staves a slightly bigger bonus per weapon "level" but ONLY for staves feels just wrong; it would mean that a dedicated heal bot is cheaper than a random dps.

Hmm.  I'm of everyone else's opinion here.  Angela needs help, so I don't see the problem of buffing her up a bit.  She's not supposed to be a melee character, but we want her staff to mean something.  I'm actually okay with vanilla too though (aka I don't buy her staff), as money is an issue, at least until post Lampflower.

I thought about asking you to make only her and Carlie gain 2 tech points per hit post first class change (which enables them to use techs twice as fast, which would make their weapons relevant), but I felt that was a bit TOO unfair.



@soul_knight

Heh.  I tried a long time ago to see if I can use the Squid boss.  I know his ID is 63 (weak to fire, absorbs water).  But whenever I used him in some map, the game went dark, as if I walked into a completely dark room.  I don't know how wiki got that picture, because I can't even make him exist and not be dark.  If anyone's interested, the map number is 1056 (it's not 136, despite what wiki says).  It's that Seashore Cave boss area, and the enemy that exist there has ID 63.


@Red Soul

I reached the secret shop and it was a huge help, thanks HMSong! only Zable left now. Hawk and Duran's damage evened out again (I'm using Pedan gear currently) and using the Forest of Illusion enemies as a baseline (high 30s, low 40s level wise, party at Lv34).

You're welcome.  Thanks for the info about Duran vs Hawk.  Now, we know for sure that -25% damage for the double hitters work great!  Kevin is still the most powerful, but now, nowhere near as powerful as before.

Also, I always felt the last class changes come too late to be relevant for most of the game.

Agreed.  Sadly, changing that will be just too much.  Way too much.  You'd want to play Sin of Mana for that, as you get your first class change in the Corridor of the Wind, and you get 2nd class change somewhere when the Godbeasts are freed.

[Red Soul]

Changing the required level is not an option.

Because it would be hard to rebalance monsters to account for this?
November 12, 2021, 10:00:34 PM - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@HMSong:

Just a tiny suggestion regarding secret shop #1. Maybe it would be more aesthetically pleasing if you put the fairy (the shop triggering NPC/event) between one of the pairs of mana statues on the island, that way it could loosely symbolize the Mana Goddess is giving the player a hand. Just a thought.

[Zimgief]

Maybe then the problem is that heal spells are too fast.

Instead of flat -cast time we should consider something like:
real cast time = (base of spell + base of char in base class) x 15 / (15 + weapon rank)
this would charlie a (1+60) x 15 / (15+15) = 30 cast heal light instead of 2
and angela (150+60) x 15 / (15+15) = 105 cast L3 spells instead of 151 (or 121 with -x)

I think including the weapon rank of staves in the formula is a clean implementation (no arbitrary value for each weapon). But I'm still skeptical about doing the same for Carlie's flails (a flail is not supposed to help casting spells).
Although if you feel it is needed , nerfing Carlie's cast time is definetely an option (base of spell or base of char in base class). But I don't know her enough (never completed the game with her), would she still be an interesting character vs LD Duran ou LD Kevin in this case?

Hmm.  But Angela with 18 PIE (that's the max PIE for DD Angela) should be able to reach 99 Max MP though, right?  In vanilla, she reached 99 Max MP by Lv45 (21 INT + 17 PIE).  I don't know how Max MP number works, but Angela not having 99 Max MP sounds... weird.  DD Angela is already the worst of Angela's classes (in vanilla, she doesn't even get MT Lv2 spells), but nerfing her even further would be... bad.  Maybe you can make it so it's [(PIE * 3) + Level] or something.  She starts with 16 MP, and reaches 99MP by Lv46 (assuming 18 PIE).  Or maybe you can use different formula and give Angela some extra MP to begin with.

With praetarius5018's change, Carlie will naturally get 99 MP, but not Angela. But maybe, Angela's staves (again, dedicated to spell casting) could give her bonus MP? How much would be needed, with a PIE maxed Angela?

Then they f(l)ail at their job.

xD
Wielding such a violent weapon, maybe we can boost her max strength (+1 point in Class 1 and class 2, +2 points in Class 3, cut off in one or two other stats), to make her a viable physical attacker (and thus giving her reasons to buy flails)? I kinda like this, as it resonates with the trope of clerics in W-RPGs, healers with physical capacities, although less than actual warriors.

[praetarius5018]

Got it.  Thanks.  I shall update that.  Also, wow, really?  1 byte?  Holy crap.

That F0 should've been a 80.
The 80 just makes it so the "has counter logic" check always fails.
F0 was "if it fails go to end"

Really?  I noticed that the enemies use their skills (not just techs, but whatever their signature moves, like Hand Axe for Goblins) when I damage them to certain point.  Some enemies, like Great Demons, you see them casting when their HP is low, so I try to kill them before they can finish their cast.  I'm sure you noticed that too.

I've also been axed when I enter a screen, so can go either way.

Hmm.  But Angela with 18 PIE (that's the max PIE for DD Angela) should be able to reach 99 Max MP though, right?  In vanilla, she reached 99 Max MP by Lv45 (21 INT + 17 PIE).  I don't know how Max MP number works, but Angela not having 99 Max MP sounds... weird.  DD Angela is already the worst of Angela's classes (in vanilla, she doesn't even get MT Lv2 spells), but nerfing her even further would be... bad.  Maybe you can make it so it's [(PIE * 3) + Level] or something.  She starts with 16 MP, and reaches 99MP by Lv46 (assuming 18 PIE).  Or maybe you can use different formula and give Angela some extra MP to begin with.

At level 50 she has 79 mp just from the level before +max(int, pie).
Duran gets only 49 base there.
I just wanted to simplify it to level base + PIE.
For Charlie and Angela 99 mp is inevitable, just may require 2-3 more levels at most.

Honestly, very few people fight them, due to high risk and low reward.  I heard there's a glitch that made Shadowzeros use YOUR stats, instead of their own stats.  Maybe you can fix that.

I'm pretty sure that is intentional since they transform into you.

The goal is to make Angela's staff worth buying, right?  I mean, given how popular that "insta cast" pack from your bugfix patch is, I feel like it's something people would want.  If you think -5 cast time for each staff is too much, then maybe you can do -4, or -3, or whatever works.  Again, this is just food for thought.

My goal is make Angela worth using; a change to the weapons is just one option to achieve that. Making it a char specific change though feels like it is way out of scope for a fix patch.

But please, no buff for Carlie (at least, for spell related things).  Like I said before, Carlie is already too powerful with MT Heal Light in her 1st class up, and insta MT Heal Light by 2nd class up (she's at the very top of my tier list).

If it is just for heal light... poto oil is 30 per piece in the black market, MT-able and instant as well.

Agreed.  Sadly, changing that will be just too much.  Way too much.  You'd want to play Sin of Mana for that, as you get your first class change in the Corridor of the Wind, and you get 2nd class change somewhere when the Godbeasts are freed.

2nd is more like after desert/snowfield, maybe after Lugar at the latest if you skip a ton of enemies.


some numbers:

Code Select Expand

Angela's L1 spells: x6+10
Angela's L2 spells: x8+15
Angela's L3 spells: x10+20
saint beam: x9 (no +x)
dark force: x9+15
double spell: x15 (no +x)
rainbow dust: x15+10
ancient: x15+60
Lise's light summons: x9+20
Lise's dark summons: x10+20
Hawk's shuriken: x7+20
Hawk's jutsus: x6+20
Hawk's black rain: x10+15
Hawk's poison bubble: x10+20
Hawk's spikes: x6+10
Hawk's rock fall: x6+20
Hawk's rogue traps: x7+[up to 60] (all are AGLx7 plus flat value)
Charlie's unicorn: x6 (no +x)
Charlie's golem: x6+10
Charlie's ghoul: x7+15
Charlie's ghost: x9 (no +x)
Charlie's gremlin: x7+15
Charlie's great demon: x9+10
heal light: x10+20

so angela clearly does have the strongest spells by a margin (3/4 of her classes get a x15, the 4th has death spell while all other characters are stuck at x10), she just doesn't get them while they would be relevant.

so what I'll do for the next patch:
1) player only one m.def stat powered by INT, monster keep both m.defs

2) player max MP only by PIE instead of higher of INT and PIE

3) exp bonus if you are underlevelled; +25% for 1 level, +50% for 2, +100% for 3 or more. only checks vs the highest level party member.

4.1) cast time = (base of spell + base of char in base class) x 15 / (15 + weapon rank)
this is actually a stealth advantage for angela since her spells have slightly longer base times, so the % shaves off more than the 60 from class changing.
Charlie with her best weapon will cast heal light about as fast as she did with the first class change in vanilla.

4.2) try to recreate the cast time fix

5) spell damage base = STAT x multipler + base for player only gets changed to:
STAT x (weapon rank + 4 x spell multipler - 8 ) / 4 +(weapon base/2+spell base - 9)

this cuts even with unchanged at the desert weapons (around x8+18)
and for the endgame weapon it adds 1.75 to the multipler and about 14 to the base

5.2) for heal light the multiplier gets reduced by another 1.75.
this gives the vanilla multiplier with endgame weapons but a bit more base

[hmsong]

@Red Soul

Just a tiny suggestion regarding secret shop #1. Maybe it would be more aesthetically pleasing if you put the fairy (the shop triggering NPC/event) between one of the pairs of mana statues on the island, that way it could loosely symbolize the Mana Goddess is giving the player a hand. Just a thought.

Hmm.  The thing is, I don't want to use fairy sprite, because that'll take away the uniqueness of the fairy that's inside the main character.  However, as you said, I wanted to use a fairy.  Specifically, the idea was that one of the 3 fairies that supposedly died in the intro survived, and is living in the Island of Oblivion, but because she was weakened, she can only exist once the Mana Stones broke and the world was temporarily full of mana.  I initially used the fairy sprite, and then tried to change the color of the fairy, but that attempt failed.  So, I had to resort to the fairy light.

I actually thought about making the fairy exist in different places (all Secret Shop 1), depending on how many Godbeasts were slain (the final place would be Island of Oblivion).  I actually made that work, but I felt that having access to the Secret Shop 1 so early would be... too powerful.  So I just put the shop in the Island of Oblivion.


@Zimgief

With praetarius5018's change, Carlie will naturally get 99 MP, but not Angela. But maybe, Angela's staves (again, dedicated to spell casting) could give her bonus MP? How much would be needed, with a PIE maxed Angela?

Holy crap!  That's a fantastic idea!



@praetarius5018

Okay, I take back what I said about staffs reducing the cast time.  No need to change anything about her cast time from vanilla.  Assuming PIE is specifically for Max MP, then using Zimgief's idea, I would prefer that Angela's staffs give extra Max MP instead.  That way, even with 18 PIE, she'd be able to reach 99 Max MP with one of the final staffs, and at the same time, give incentive to the players to purchase the staffs.  Two birds, one stone.

I don't know what's a good formula for the Max MP though.  Maybe it's Max MP = [PIE * 3] + [staff multiplier * 3]?  No, that'll result in everyone else having too little Max MP by the end (even Carlie).  [PIE * 5] + [staff multiplier] will result in all characters starting the game with too high MP.  What was the formula for vanilla?



Edit:  I guess you posted while I was typing this up.  Heh.

3) exp bonus if you are underlevelled; +25% for 1 level, +50% for 2, +100% for 3 or more. only checks vs the highest level party member.

Extra bonus of what?  Attack?  Max MP?

4.1) cast time = (base of spell + base of char in base class) x 15 / (15 + weapon rank)
this is actually a stealth advantage for angela since her spells have slightly longer base times, so the % shaves off more than the 60 from class changing.
Charlie with her best weapon will cast heal light about as fast as she did with the first class change in vanilla.

I'd appreciate it if you could make this into a separate patch, as I enjoy the vanilla cast time for everyone except Angela.

5) spell damage base = STAT x multipler + base for player only gets changed to:
STAT x (weapon rank + 4 x spell multipler - 8 ) / 4 +(weapon base/2+spell base - 9)

this cuts even with unchanged at the desert weapons (around x8+18)
and for the endgame weapon it adds 1.75 to the multipler and about 14 to the base

5.2) for heal light the multiplier gets reduced by another 1.75.
this gives the vanilla multiplier with endgame weapons but a bit more base

Err, I know this isn't your interest, but I wonder how that'll affect with my Balance patch...

[praetarius5018]

Extra bonus of what?  Attack?  Max MP?

EXP = experience

Err, I know this isn't your interest, but I wonder how that'll affect with my Balance patch...

depends on what exactly you've done

[hmsong]

depends on what exactly you've done

Changed stuff from 119941~11A7A9 (and items related to those).  That's spell's multiplier, addition, cast time, mp cost, etc.

[praetarius5018]

Changed stuff from 119941~11A7A9 (and items related to those).  That's spell's multiplier, addition, cast time, mp cost, etc.

Since I planned on leaving those areas alone and just modifying the formula itself, it'd also get scaled.


Still torn between adding heal vs undead as damage (and option to switch spell target side) or not..

[hmsong]

Since I planned on leaving those areas alone and just modifying the formula itself, it'd also get scaled.

Oh.  Well, if the weakest spell (Unicorn Head, Lv1 spells) and the strongest (Ancient) use the same formula, then it shouldn't affect my balance THAT much.  After all, my balance didn't touch either of the extremes.

[Zimgief]

One last reason in favour of a specific treatment for Angela's staves: other characters already have some unique traits.
Duran's shields. And most of all, one can consider (in a sense) that Hawk and Kevin's weapons give them dual strike without any trade-off (you even had to nerf them).
For this reason, I don't find excessive to give Angela's staves unique traits (without compromising game design), as 1) it makes sense for staves 2) she is the only one needing special treatment 3) it doesn't involve changing magic formulas for other people, which are already fine 4) Kevin and Hawk's weapons already have unique traits. So:
- Staves can increase cast time and/or MP (to get to 99).
- Angela's spells can be reworked to give a better bonus from INT.
But as I said, it's the last time I defend the idea, I don't want to bother you!

Carlie's higher strength: bad idea?

Still torn between adding heal vs undead as damage (and option to switch spell target side) or not..

If the option to switch spell target side affects all spells, I like the idea! Can a player reflect a spell they cast on themselves in order to hit an enemy who also reflects spells, like in Final Fantasy?

Angela's L1 spells: x6+10
Angela's L2 spells: x8+15
Angela's L3 spells: x10+20
saint beam: x9 (no +x)
dark force: x9+15
double spell: x15 (no +x)
rainbow dust: x15+10
ancient: x15+60
Lise's light summons: x9+20
Lise's dark summons: x10+20
Hawk's shuriken: x7+20
Hawk's jutsus: x6+20
Hawk's black rain: x10+15
Hawk's poison bubble: x10+20
Hawk's spikes: x6+10
Hawk's rock fall: x6+20
Hawk's rogue traps: x7+[up to 60] (all are AGLx7 plus flat value)
Charlie's unicorn: x6 (no +x)
Charlie's golem: x6+10
Charlie's ghoul: x7+15
Charlie's ghost: x9 (no +x)
Charlie's gremlin: x7+15
Charlie's great demon: x9+10
heal light: x10+20

I remember people complaining summons are too weak. It could be the occasion to change that (but I don't know much myself, never tried them).

[praetarius5018]

One last reason in favour of a specific treatment for Angela's staves: other characters already have some unique traits.
Duran's shields. And most of all, one can consider (in a sense) that Hawk and Kevin's weapons give them dual strike without any trade-off (you even had to nerf them).
For this reason, I don't find excessive to give Angela's staves unique traits (without compromising game design), as 1) it makes sense for staves 2) she is the only one needing special treatment 3) it doesn't involve changing magic formulas for other people, which are already fine. So:
- Staves can increase cast time and/or MP (to get to 99).
- Angela's spells can be reworked to give a better bonus from INT.
But as I said, it's the last time I defend the idea, I don't want to bother you!

Carlie's higher strength: bad idea?

imo, yes.
she already has healing, decent spell damage (saint beam may only be x9 but it is the best element in endgame so it may just as well be x13.5; turn undead's 999 vs undead), (de)buffs; usable melee damage is the only thing she doesn't have.
her dark classes kinda suck. black curse is the only good spell I see there.
demon breath may be aoe, magic down and x10+15 but it is dark and INT based.
great demon is x9+10 which is nothing to write home about for a single target "ultimate"

If the option to switch spell target side affects all spells, I like the idea! Can a player reflect a spell they cast on themselves in order to hit an enemy who also reflects spells, like in Final Fantasy?

reflected spells go back to the caster.
heal light vs undead would be its only use here, really.
in sin of mana there are a couple of other mechanics that allow it to be more useful, like an armor that turns buffs into debuffs and vice versa,
giving a touch melee boss a saber that your whole team resists
or casting life booster on a boss to boost the damage of upgraded half vanish (%maxHP damage instead of %curHP with a class specific weapon)

I remember people complaining summons are too weak. It could be the occasion to change that (but as I said, I don't know much about her).

tbh, I'd give them an element but as enchanter she only has 2 summons so she can't really cover much.



edit: and v1.8 submitted

[soul_knight]

Awesome!  Looking forward to trying it.

Btw, what's the vanilla formula for Max MP?  And what's the bugfix's formula for Max MP?

[praetarius5018]

Awesome!  Looking forward to trying it.

Btw, what's the vanilla formula for Max MP?  And what's the bugfix's formula for Max MP?

You have a base value by level that varies by character then add the higher of int and pie to it.
My hack just removes int as an option.

HP is the same: gigantic base value by level and character and then add 1.5x VIT, no idea why they bothered if they made it that small.

[taikyoku]

Just wanna say that Sin of Mana is one of the best hacks of a video game ever made. Thank you, praetarius5018.

[soul_knight]

You have a base value by level that varies by character then add the higher of int and pie to it.
My hack just removes int as an option.

Sorry, but what is "higher" of Int/Pie?  I'm not familiar with that term, but based on the context, I'm guessing it's "factor" or something.  Also if you removed the higher of Int, but not add anything to it, then does that mean everyone will now have lower Max MP?

[praetarius5018]

Sorry, but what is "higher" of Int/Pie?  I'm not familiar with that term, but based on the context, I'm guessing it's "factor" or something.

max(pie,int)

[soul_knight]

max(pie,int)

Argh.  I don't know what that means.  I'm guessing it's some sort of programmer thing.  Haha.  But based on what I see, I guess the current Pie gets both bonuses of vanilla Int and Pie for the Max MP, right?  Similar to how current Int got the both bonuses of vanilla Int and Pie for M.Def.

[praetarius5018]

Sorry, but what is "higher" of Int/Pie?  I'm not familiar with that term, but based on the context, I'm guessing it's "factor" or something.

try it with example values:
If I told you to choose the higher number out of 5 and 10, what would you do? multiply them!???