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Author Topic: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion  (Read 78723 times)

Nuclear3D

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #160 on: November 11, 2021, 08:28:35 am »
Dumb question maybe but can you use a title screen replacer with your hacks and bugfix edition ?

https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2569/

Pethronos

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #161 on: November 11, 2021, 10:33:14 am »
Dumb question maybe but can you use a title screen replacer with your hacks and bugfix edition ?

https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2569/

Of course, you can do whatever you want with title screens or other aesthetics patches.

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #162 on: November 11, 2021, 01:30:38 pm »
maybe debuff likeihood
(although it's mostly my headcanon and I don't know if that's possible or even desirable as a balance point).
I'm against any chance to negate suffering a debuff, enemies don't throw many debuffs your way already.


@praetorius

So this may be off topic, but I just couldn’t play through Sin of Mana much because of the death penalty, but I didn’t want to play on the super easy modes. I realized I had to turn off using tech for npc party members just to survive Full Metal Hugger. Is there any way you could separate the death penalty garbage from the rest of the hack? It gives no real purpose other than a massive FU to the player if they don’t perfectly nail a boss the first time, or even if a random crit takes them out. Honestly Angel Grail being over 1K is ludicrous too. Please cut their costs down to like 300 and make them resurrect you with 25% hp if you have to.
Strike one for getting my name wrong. Seriously, where do people always get the "o" from...

I've had this discussion several times already and it won't happen.
Even having difficulty options below hard was already a concession.
But lets entertain the thought for a minute (IT WILL NOT HAPPEN!): what purpose would inns have? You have regenerating (therefor infinite) MP; once you know heal light (or bought the regeneration spell from a merchant right after the first boss) you get free full recovery after every battle. Inns would have literally no purpose at that point.
So what would you do with them? NOONE that tried to argue against the death mechanic could ever provide a reasonable suggestion for that.


Will you put that in your next update?  Because if so, then it's exactly what some people here would want (they want Luck Denies Counter with signature enemy skill/transformation guaranteed).
I will fix the luck denies counter so the threshold moves (50% and 25%) can be used but I will not add an extra patch that removes enemies counters completely.


If you're gonna add removal to AntiMagic, then I personally prefer you remove everything, including the weakness and immunity.  That way, it's "fair" to the target that gets AntiMagiced -- loses all his elemental defense, but also loses his weakness.  Or is that too powerful or something?
I feel that would indeed make it too powerful.
Players have no weakness in this patch (and yes I know the whining such a change would cause - I went through with it in the other hack) so it doesn't matter for the one case a monster uses it.
Now if you remove elemental adjustments from a monster it would not matter which saber you use since they all give no damage bonus, EXCEPT moon and leaf saber, they'd go from a support option to the only valid option.
Now you could argue that you would have the option to not use anti-magic to keep a weakness intact, but really, when would you use it then?
If you're at a level of play where you would consider thinking about removing an annoying resistance/immunity you would just as well just buy the correct elemental saber to hit a weakness.
Really, the ONLY use I've seen for anti magic in vanilla is making black rabite tamer; for every other boss it would screw up the debuffs I've put in place.


Also, if possible, can you make it so that bosses' Counter Magic at least reflects Holy element?  I actually prefer it reflect all elements, but I assume the devs left holes in bosses' Counter Magic to ensure Angela isn't crippled against Counter Magic.  Anyways, I said Holy element, because I want Carlie D's summon spell to have something over Carlie L's Holy Ball.
All summons are non-elemental in vanilla.
I made them basically L2 elemental spells in sin of mana so her dark side has the broader coverage and the light side has the arguable best element and more support; but that is again too much for a "bug fix with minor balance repairs".

If you ask me, countermagic should just reflect all elements; it already does for players and random enemies, just not for bosses. Can't think of a reason why it was done this way.


When I first played the game, I thought INT was for M.Def (because I saw that INT affected M.Def in the stat screen), and PIE was for M.Atk.  And I thought Angela should only raise her PIE, because I wanted to increase her magic attack, and her Holy Ball reflected that.  Boy, was I wrong.  If you intend on changing the mechanics of M.Atk and M.Def, then I propose that INT is for M.Atk (since Angela has the highest INT stat), and PIE for M.Def (Carlie is already too powerful, so she can use a bit of nerf to her attack spells and heal light).
My suggestion was just to use the INT for both m.defs on the player side and leave monster with separate m.defs and don't change spell stats either.

Players can throw a ton of spells at the enemies over the course of the game, so there is value in having separate m.defs there; but players very rarely suffer spell damage, so having to increase 2 stats to gain 8 damage reduction per point is not worth it compared to vit's up to 15 damage reduction all the time.


I never experimented with weapons increasing INT.  Let's say there is a way (I don't know if there is though).  The idea of her staves increasing her magic spells is indeed interesting.  Her spells can always use more damage output, at least after the first class up... as long as it doesn't power up monster spells too.

The problem is, if I make the weapons increase her spell damage by increasing her INT stat, then it'll also increase her magic defense against INT spells (which is almost all of them).  I don't want her weapons to increase her magic defense, at least in the way that it reflects in the menu screen.  She already has the highest magic defense in the game.
The game is not equipped to handle temporary base stat changes.
That's why I suggested adjusting the spells' stat multipliers and base values.


As a hacker myself (sort of), I can say that we listen and value others' opinions, but sometimes, we also want to express our own ideas into the hacks, regardless of what others may think of it.  For example, NOBODY liked my idea of nerfing Angel's Grail (based on reviews and what was posted here), but I did it anyways, because I wanted to, and I still think it's a good idea.
Makes you think it is kinda is a rite of passage.

Changed death penalty, giving godbeasts some uniqueness via additional mechanics, player having elemental weaknesses, black rabite being a mandatory boss, half the mechanics in my FF5 hack, about everything I did in metroid...
A lot of water was turned into whine.


Magic DefenseThis makes sense for any people familiar with RPGs, sure... but developers were onto something, by insuring every stat has an impact for non-casters. With this change, INT would be useless to them. :(Interesting... It adds weight to Red Soul's idea, that PIE increases Holy and Dark m.defenses, as Holy is already treated differently in offense (and it makes sense that it also protects against Dark). But realistically, it would not read well on the status screen, as it shows only one m.def stat.  :'(
Could make INT exclusive for m.def and PIE exclusive for max MP.
Seriously, 8 m.def for a third of the rarely happening spells (some boss only spells actually hit p.def...) you get thrown your way isn't worth it either.
Just cast stupiditymind down that's as good as it gets..


Counter Magic
Just an idea (I don't think it's very solid), along the lines of tying holy and dark m.def to PIE: what about Counter Magic reflects all except Holy and Dark, be it cast by player, or boss? It doesn't hinder Angela, if that was the developers' purpose with their curious omissions (she has access to light and dark magic).
I'm opposed on the base that it would also buff light Charlie.
Not that counter magic happens often.


Angela's Staves
Without any changes to weapons (which affect other characters), what do you think about changing her techs? I might be off-track as I don't know what are the original formulas. But her techs, in addition to p.att, could use her INT stat (worth to use tech even if normal attacks do close to nothing) + weapon level (buying new weapons would increase her techniques' effectivness)?
Techs are just 1.5x/2x/2.5x atk before def.


If her techs used magic stats, they would be pretty strong, I imagine. But something tells me techs might be hard coded to work as physicals.
Each Lv2/3 tech is its own "spell" entry, so they can be changed individually.
But I don't think this would change much; she'd have to gain 7-9 tech points first which means hitting enemies for 1 dmg with a stick for a while when she should be charging an explosion spell.

Zimgief

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #163 on: November 11, 2021, 03:01:49 pm »
Magic Defense
Quote
My suggestion was just to use the INT for both m.defs on the player side and leave monster with separate m.defs and don't change spell stats either.
Quote
Could make INT exclusive for m.def and PIE exclusive for max MP.
Seriously, 8 m.def for a third of the rarely happening spells (some boss only spells actually hit p.def...) you get thrown your way isn't worth it either.
Just cast mind down that's as good as it gets..
What does INT and PIE do exactly, in regards to magic defense? The manual I linked is vague. I read elswhere that PIE boosts m.def specifically against light?
In any case, I like the idea that MP is only increased by PIE, as my point was to not make PIE less useful for melee characters.
- Angela is already interested in PIE for faster spell casting, it makes the stat even more valuable for her
- it doesn't change anything for Carlie
- other characters would benefit from increasing INT and PIE (otherwise, INT is enough, and PIE mostly useless).

Quote
Each Lv2/3 tech is its own "spell" entry, so they can be changed individually.
But I don't think this would change much; she'd have to gain 7-9 tech points first which means hitting enemies for 1 dmg with a stick for a while when she should be charging an explosion spell.
Fair enough. But do you think a change to Angela's Lv2/3 techs would make them valuable when the player wants to save MP? That is all we should ask from them, a viable (if subpar) alternative when needed... and an reason to see the new animations she gets with her new classes. :D

Messianic

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #164 on: November 11, 2021, 03:54:22 pm »
@praetarius

Must be because praetor is a Roman government term.

Anywho are you saying sleeping at an Inn undoes the stat loss penalties from dying? If so that is a game changer.

Also, I am no stranger to hacking or making a more difficult mod. My Mother 2 Deluxe hack of Earthbound speaks for itself. So don’t think I am some rube who doesn’t know what the hacking world is actually like.

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #165 on: November 11, 2021, 04:08:27 pm »
Magic DefenseWhat does INT and PIE do exactly, in regards to magic defense? The manual I linked is vague. I read elswhere that PIE boosts m.def specifically against light?
Both give their own magic defense.
Max MP is the higher of both stats plus some base value by level.
Each spells determines which stat it is powered by.
-all of Lise's and Charlie's spells are powered by PIE
-Holy Ball and Saint Beam are PIE based, all other Angela spells INT based
-Hawk's jutsus and poison bubble are INT based, rest AGL
-for boss spells some are INT, some are STR

Depending on which stat is powered by determines what defense applies:
INT -> INT m.def
PIE -> PIE m.def
all other -> p.def


- Angela is already interested in PIE for faster spell casting
this is not a thing in vanilla; cast time is ONLY determined by which spell is used and who/what class level uses it


Fair enough. But do you think a change to Angela's Lv2/3 techs would make them valuable when the player wants to save MP? That is all we should ask from them, a viable (if subpar) alternative when needed... and an reason to see the new animations she gets with her new classes. :D
assuming 240 atk and 220 def (final bosses),
Lv2 tech does: 240x2-220 = 260, the needed 7 hits are worth 400 damage total or ~57 average
Lv3 tech does: 240x2.5-220 = 380, the 9 hits are worth 560 damage total or ~62 average
lets add power up:
Lv3 tech does: 240x1.2x2.5-220 = 500, or 850 with weakness hitting saber; just on neutral the 9 hits are worth 1112 damage total or ~123 average

take Duran (350 atk), slap on power up and the L2 tech alone would be 350x1.2x2-220=640 or even 999 if he had the weakness hitting saber

So if you want to ignore STR and still have the L3 tech relevant, that is not happening if the target has a saber exploitable weakness.


If so that is a game changer.
That it does. Think of it more as fatigue than "death".


Also, I am no stranger to hacking or making a more difficult mod. My Mother 2 Deluxe hack of Earthbound speaks for itself. So don’t think I am some rube who doesn’t know what the hacking world is actually like.
That had nothing to do with you; I just had that and similar complaints so often it just hit a sore spot, sorry.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 04:15:16 pm by praetarius5018 »

Zimgief

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #166 on: November 11, 2021, 05:36:55 pm »
Thank you for the explanation!

As a player, I don't mind the split m.def, INT bringing the main one, PIE the corner case (holy, and summons if enemies have some), given that is has a clear logic (player's holy and summons also linked to PIE).
But your solution is perfectly fine, and it has another merit: the info on status screen will be correct. :p (I assumes it only displays the INT magic defense, or the average between the two stats).

Regarding linking MP only to PIE. I like the idea, but it may have the unwanted effect of thinning too much Angela's stats, between intelligence, spirit and luck (deny counters!) when in the original game, she could ignore spirit and luck.

Regarding her staves and techniques, it appears this track was a dead-end! I suppose we have to admit the game system fails to entice the player to buy her new weapons. In other games, it would increase magic damage, inflict status effect, have passive bonuses,etc. But not here, the equipment being extremely basic (besides shields' evasion and resistances YOU re-implemented). :p

I have another suggestion: I always felt entering, leaving, and to a lesser extent navigating the menu was horrendously slow. Is it possible to speed it up?

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #167 on: November 11, 2021, 05:38:35 pm »
I'm against any chance to negate suffering a debuff, enemies don't throw many debuffs your way already.

Okay so full denial is too much, how about a chance of deinal then?

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #168 on: November 11, 2021, 06:08:29 pm »
But your solution is perfectly fine, and it has another merit: the info on status screen will be correct. :p (I assumes it only displays the INT magic defense, or the average between the two stats).
It indeed displays INT m.def. That's why I chose it over PIE m.def in the suggestion.


Regarding linking MP only to PIE. I like the idea, but it may have the unwanted effect of thinning too much Angela's stats, between intelligence, spirit and luck (deny counters!) when in the original game, she could ignore spirit and luck.
She already needs PIE for arguably the best element, at least in the endgame: holy.
INT for every other spell. Everyone needs VIT ofc.

A melee char needs STR as much as she does INT and they probably now want AGL (missing means no damage dealt, getting hit all the time makes you dead and dead people also deal no damage) and LUCK (crit is a decent damage amplifier) as well. So I think that is fair.


Regarding her staves and techniques, it appears this track was a dead-end! I suppose we have to admit the game system fails to entice the player to buy her new weapons. In other games, it would increase magic damage, inflict status effect, have passive bonuses,etc.
As I wrote earlier, we could make it adjust spell damage independant from your actual stats.


I have another suggestion: I always felt entering, leaving, and to a lesser extent navigating the menu was horrendously slow. Is it possible to speed it up?
If I could I'd have done that long ago already.


Okay so full denial is too much, how about a chance of deinal then?
As I said, any chance for debuff denial feels wrong to me.

Really, with 2 of 4 potential damage spell casters using PIE, heal light and poto oil using it as well I don't think it needs much of a buff. If you think it doesn't do enough we could turn round drops, candy and seeds into mini heal lights (i.e. scaling with PIE).

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #169 on: November 11, 2021, 06:54:59 pm »
It indeed displays INT m.def. That's why I chose it over PIE m.def in the suggestion.
Really, with 2 of 4 potential damage spell casters using PIE, heal light and poto oil using it as well I don't think it needs much of a buff. If you think it doesn't do enough we could turn round drops, candy and seeds into mini heal lights (i.e. scaling with PIE).

I like the idea of lesser healing items scaling a bit with piety.

hmsong

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #170 on: November 11, 2021, 08:04:31 pm »
I'm getting confused when someone's talking about Sin of Mana or SD3.  I'm just gonna talk about SD3, as Sin of Mana has its own discussion page.

Quote from: praetarius5018
I will fix the luck denies counter so the threshold moves (50% and 25%) can be used but I will not add an extra patch that removes enemies counters completely.

Okay, I think I may have misunderstood something, so let me retry my question.  What's the difference between vanilla, and "change 10C629 from F0 to 80", in terms of effect? (erasing the No Skill Counter change will turn it into vanilla)  Because obviously, vanilla doesn't block the HP threshold moves (which is what I want), and apparently, the latter doesn't block the HP threshold moves either.  Is the latter part an addition to your Luck Denies Counter, to make the enemies use HP threshold moves?

Also, does that only apply to bosses, or all regular enemies?  If HP threshold moves are guaranteed to regular monsters, then enemies with MT Tech (Bloody Wolves, Nightblades, Dark Lords) would be absurd.  I'm not sure how vanilla works, but I think the regular enemies randomly dont' use their HP threshold moves (and Luck Denies Counter makes that even less, which was what I wanted).

Quote from: praetarius5018
I feel that would indeed make it too powerful.
Players have no weakness in this patch (and yes I know the whining such a change would cause - I went through with it in the other hack) so it doesn't matter for the one case a monster uses it.
Now if you remove elemental adjustments from a monster it would not matter which saber you use since they all give no damage bonus, EXCEPT moon and leaf saber, they'd go from a support option to the only valid option.
Now you could argue that you would have the option to not use anti-magic to keep a weakness intact, but really, when would you use it then?

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about Moon Saber.  Leaf Saber, I don't really care about, because MP isn't really an issue by the time you get to Lampflower Forest (maybe even earlier) -- it's not like you can decrease enemy's MP (unlike Secret of Mana).  Moon Saber working on innate-Moon-defense bosses would be OP (as far as I know, the only bosses with Moon immunity are Black Rabite, Dark Godbeast, and Lugar -- no bosses have resist against Moon).  Okay, then can you make AntiMagic neutralize everything (reflect, absorb, immune, resist, weak), except Moon element?  That way, enemies with natural Moon defense isn't crippled by AntiMagic, and Moon Saber isn't too OP.  And as a bonus side effect, Moon Saber will no longer work against Moon enemies, like Dolan and Bigeau, even after AntiMagic.  As far as I know, the only attack in the entire game with Moon element (including all enemy skills) is Moon Saber -- I tried to give Moon element to one of Angela's spells, but that backfired spectacularly (it just damaged the caster).

If not, then I'm also okay with your initial idea of AntiMagic neutralizing just the innate resist, as that'll not affect the 3 Moon-immune bosses.

Quote from: praetarius5018
Really, the ONLY use I've seen for anti magic in vanilla is making black rabite tamer; for every other boss it would screw up the debuffs I've put in place.

I actually used it against some elemental bosses in the beginning of the battle, just so I can cast Jutsus on them.

Quote from: praetarius5018
If you ask me, countermagic should just reflect all elements; it already does for players and random enemies, just not for bosses. Can't think of a reason why it was done this way.

I agree.  Esp since Counter Magic can be neutralized with a store-bought item.

Quote from: praetarius5018
My suggestion was just to use the INT for both m.defs on the player side and leave monster with separate m.defs and don't change spell stats either.

Players can throw a ton of spells at the enemies over the course of the game, so there is value in having separate m.defs there; but players very rarely suffer spell damage, so having to increase 2 stats to gain 8 damage reduction per point is not worth it compared to vit's up to 15 damage reduction all the time.

Could make INT exclusive for m.def and PIE exclusive for max MP.

Huh.  That's a really good idea.  I thought PIE will become too useless if INT took over the M.Def for all, but if PIE affects MaxMP, then it'll have a common usage for everyone.  Having said that, instead of INT not affecting MaxMP at all, can you make it so that INT doesn't increase MaxMP as much as vanilla, and instead PIE increase MaxMP more than vanilla? (at least double of INT)  That way, Angela should be able to reach 99 MaxMP, even at her DD class (22 INT + 18 PIE), but it shouldn't affect other characters with low INT + high PIE as much (such as LL Duran, who has 15 INT and 17 PIE).  I mean, they'll probably still end up with higher MaxMP than vanilla, but the difference of MaxMP between DD Angela and LL Duran should be rather large, as intended.  Food for thought.

Quote from: praetarius5018
The game is not equipped to handle temporary base stat changes.
That's why I suggested adjusting the spells' stat multipliers and base values.

But wouldn't that affect the enemy spells too, assuming they're using the same spell?  I already increased the powers of spells in my Balance patch, and some of those became quite nasty.  Increasing further may be a bit dangerous (although I haven't tested out all of them).

I think someone mentioned this before, but I think the "upgraded" staff should increase her cast time, rather than power.  Counting all the weapons with multipliers, it's x2~15, so that's 14 staffs.  If you don't count the first two staffs (as you get the 2nd staff as default/Astoria, which is before getting the first spell), that's 12 upgrades.  If each staff decreases the spell cast time by... 5 frames, that's 60 frames by the final staff.  Her Lv1 spells are 60 frames, so with the final staff (and 2nd class up), she should be able to insta-cast Lv1 spells.  Hmm.  Quite fast.  What do you think?  Too powerful?

Quote from: praetarius5018
A lot of water was turned into whine.

Okay, I'm gonna use that statement.  That was actually pretty funny.



Okay, I finished up the EVA mod plan (it took longer than expected, because I kept changing my mind).  I used Duran DL for the character ("c"), and Lise LL for monsters ("m").  Take a look, and let me know what you think.

Code: [Select]
name mod m agi c agi m eva eva-acc
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
01 Myconid -50 6 4~5 9 3~1.5
03 Goblin -30 6 4~5 13 7~5.5
21 Rabite -30 6 4~5 13 7~5.5
5D Battum -10 6 4~5 17 11~9.5
06 Poron -30 6 4~5 13 7~5.5
34 Assassin Bug -30 6 4~5 13 7~5.5
2E Ogre Box -30 6 4~5 13 7~5.5
42 Bound Wolf -30 6 4~5 13 7~5.5
55 Zombie -50 6 4~5 9 3~1.5
61 Machine Golem -20 6 4~5 15 9~7.5
64 Full Metal Hagger -20 6 4~5 15 9~7.5

04 Goblin Lord -30 7 4~6 14 8~5
12 Gal Bee -10 7 4~6 18 12~9
15 Magician -30 7 4~6 14 8~5
1B Slime -50 7 4~6 10 4~1
25 Molebear -30 7 4~6 14 8~5
2B Machine Golem -50 7 4~6 10 4~1
30 Unicorn Head -10 7 4~6 18 12~9
65 Jewel Eater -20 7 4~6 16 10~7

00 Shell Hunter 0 8 4~7 24 18~13.5
0B Armor Knight -50 8 4~7 12 6~1.5
22 Rabilion -30 8 4~7 16 10~5.5
39 Needlebird -10 8 4~7 21 15~10.5
40 Harpy -30 8 4~7 16 10~5.5
4F ChibiDevil -10 8 4~7 21 15~10.5
66 Tzenker 20 8 4~7 28 22~17.5

0F Ninja -10 9 4~8 22 16~10
1F Shapeshifter -30 9 4~8 17 11~5
32 Evil Sword 0 9 4~8 25 19~13
46 Specter 100 9 4~8 50 44~38
56 Ghoul -50 9 4~8 12 6~0
62 Genova -30 9 4~8 17 11~5
DA Bill and Ben 0 9 4~8 25 19~13

18 Dark Priest -10 10 4~9 25 19~11.5
1D Grell -30 10 4~9 19 13~5.5
38 Cockatrice -50 10 4~9 14 8~0.5
3A Cockabird -10 10 4~9 25 19~11.5
48 Poto -30 10 4~9 19 13~5.5
53 Pakkun Baby -50 10 4~9 14 8~0.5
27 Pakkun Lizard -30 10 4~9 19 13~5.5
67 Gorva 10 10 4~9 30 24~16.5

09 Duck Soldier -30 11 4~10 21 15~6
16 Wizard -10 11 4~10 27 21~12
44 Bulette -50 11 4~10 15 9~0
45 Gold Bulette -50 11 4~10 15 9~0
59 Sahagin -30 11 4~10 21 15~6
5B Sea Serpent -10 11 4~10 27 21~12

3B Werewolf -25 12 10~11 23 8~6.5
3C Black Fang -10 12 10~11 27 12~10.5
5E Dark Battum 10 12 10~11 34 19~17.5
D7 Lugar -10 12 10~11 27 12~10.5

07 Porobin Hood -25 13 10~12 25 10~7
13 Lady Bee -10 13 10~12 30 15~12
36 Mega Crawler -40 13 10~12 20 5~2
6B Gildervine -30 13 10~12 23 8~5

23 King Rabite -25 14 10~13 27 12~7.5
2F Kaiser Mimic -25 14 10~13 27 12~7.5

02 Darth Matango -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
05 Beast Master -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
08 Porobin Leader -10 15 10~14 35 20~14
0A Duck General -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
0C Silver Knight -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
0D Sword Master -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
10 Ninja Master 10 15 10~14 42 27~21
14 Queen Bee -10 15 10~14 35 20~14
1C Slime Prince -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
1E Grell Mage -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
26 Needlion -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
28 Pakkun Dragon -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
29 Firedrake -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
2C Guardian -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
37 Giga Crawler -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
3D Silver Wolf -10 15 10~14 35 20~14
3E Bloody Wolf -10 15 10~14 35 20~14
41 Siren -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
49 Mama Poto -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
4B Petit Dragon -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
4C Frost Dragon -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
54 Pakkuri Baby -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
57 Carmilla -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
5A Petit Poseidon -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
5C Sea Dragon -10 15 10~14 35 20~14
75 God-Beast Fiegmund 0 15 10~14 39 24~18
76 God-Beast Xan Bie 10 15 10~14 42 27~21
77 God-Beast Land Umber 0 15 10~14 39 24~18
78 God-Beast Dangaard 20 15 10~14 46 31~25
79 God-Beast Lightgazer -10 15 10~14 35 20~14
7B God-Beast Dolan -20 15 10~14 31 16~10
7C God-Beast Mispolm -30 15 10~14 27 12~6

11 Nightblade 0 17 10~16 42 27~18
1A Evil Shaman -10 17 10~16 37 22~13
24 Great Rabite -20 17 10~16 33 18~9
2A Basilisk -30 17 10~16 29 14~5
35 Ruster Bug -20 17 10~16 33 18~9
3F Wolf Devil -10 17 10~16 37 22~13
43 Kerberos -20 17 10~16 33 18~9
47 Ghost 100 17 10~16 84* 69~60* <-- This is obviously less, because max Eva is 60.
4A Papa Poto -20 17 10~16 33 18~9
4D Petit Tiamat -20 17 10~16 33 18~9
50 Gremlin 0 17 10~16 42 27~18
51 Lesser Demon -30 17 10~16 29 14~5
5F Boulder -10 17 10~16 37 22~13

70 Deathjester 0 17 16~17 42 18~16.5
71 Jagan 10 17 16~17 46 22~20.5
73 Darkshine Knight -10 17 16~17 37 13~11.5
7A God-Beast Zable-Fahr 0 17 16~17 42 18~16.5

0E Dark Lord -30 19 16~18 32 8~5
17 High Wizard -10 19 16~18 41 17~14
19 Necromancer -10 19 16~18 41 17~14
20 Shadowzero -20 19 16~18 36 12~9
2D Death Machine -30 19 16~18 32 8~5
31 Gold Unicorn 0 19 16~18 46 22~19
33 Element Sword 10 19 16~18 50 26~23
4E Dragon Zombie -20 19 16~18 36 12~9
52 Great Demon -30 19 16~18 32 8~5
58 Carmilla Queen -20 19 16~18 36 12~9
60 Power Boulder -10 19 16~18 41 17~14

6F Koren 10 19 16~18 50 26~23
72 Bigeau 20 19 16~18 55 31~28
74 Heath 10 19 16~18 50 26~23
7D Dragon Emperor 0 19 16~18 46 22~19
7E Dark Lich 10 19 16~18 50 26~23
7F Archdemon -10 19 16~18 41 17~14

I love Excel.  It made my life so much easier in trying out different numbers, including the round down parts.

I'm aware that I may have to use two different address for some bosses, like Dangaard, Koren, and Heath.  I'll do that, just not for this list.

Some of the fights may be tough, esp the first Gorva.  I mean, in addition to vanila toughness -- 2 characters, no MP healing unless you're with Carlie, Kevin can't transform if he sleeps even once, etc -- Gorva now has high EVA, meaning even melee attacks will miss 15~25% (unless Bird's Scale/Needlion's Eye is used).  Hopefully, people will realize that AGL is important from this fight.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 10:27:18 pm by hmsong »

soul_knight

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #171 on: November 12, 2021, 03:12:29 am »
@praetarius5018

Hey, for your Sin of Mana, did you employ the unused Squid boss?  According to wiki, there's an unused Squid boss, and there's even sprite and everything.  Based on the picture, I'm guessing he was supposed to be used in the Seashore Cave.  Make sense, since there was no boss in that place.

Zimgief

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #172 on: November 12, 2021, 03:26:06 am »
Quote from: praetarius5018
A melee char needs STR as much as she does INT and they probably now want AGL (missing means no damage dealt, getting hit all the time makes you dead and dead people also deal no damage) and LUCK (crit is a decent damage amplifier) as well. So I think that is fair.
True!

Quote from: hmsong
Huh.  That's a really good idea.  I thought PIE will become too useless if INT took over the M.Def for all, but if PIE affects MaxMP, then it'll have a common usage for everyone.  Having said that, instead of INT not affecting MaxMP at all, can you make it so that INT doesn't increase MaxMP as much as vanilla, and instead PIE increase MaxMP more than vanilla? (at least double of INT)  That way, Angela should be able to reach 99 MaxMP, even at her DD class (22 INT + 18 PIE), but it shouldn't affect other characters with low INT + high PIE as much (such as LL Duran, who has 15 INT and 17 PIE).  I mean, they'll probably still end up with higher MaxMP than vanilla, but the difference of MaxMP between DD Angela and LL Duran should be rather large, as intended.  Food for thought.
As a player, I don't know if i'd bother about Spirit with Angela in this case, completementing the needs against a boss with magic walnuts. Gameplay-wise, PIE-only MP works better. (But I understand hitting 99 MP is something magical for a spell caster. :p)

I like the idea of lesser healing items scaling a bit with piety.
Is there a strong reason for making scaling lesser healing items?
I always felt it to be strategic in JRPGs to have some fixed amount healing items, as they are simple and reliable, regardless of stats. They are ubiquitous in games for a reason. :)
(And it made Poto Oil that much special, I rembember spending time to farm them. :p)

Quote from: hmsong
I think someone mentioned this before, but I think the "upgraded" staff should increase her cast time, rather than power.  Counting all the weapons with multipliers, it's x2~15, so that's 14 staffs.  If you don't count the first two staffs (as you get the 2nd staff as default/Astoria, which is before getting the first spell), that's 12 upgrades.  If each staff decreases the spell cast time by... 5 frames, that's 60 frames by the final staff.  Her Lv1 spells are 60 frames, so with the final staff (and 2nd class up), she should be able to insta-cast Lv1 spells.  Hmm.  Quite fast.  What do you think?  Too powerful?
Yeah, it's probably the best thing to do for her staves. Between class bonus, PIE and staves, by the end of the game, she would get next to insta-cast!

Quote from: hmsong
Okay, I finished up the EVA mod plan (it took longer than expected, because I kept changing my mind).  I used Duran DL for the character ("c"), and Lise LL for monsters ("m").  Take a look, and let me know what you think.
Good job! I like the idea that the bugfix patch keeps it simple and functional, and that you make something more nuanced in your patch.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 03:53:10 am by Zimgief »

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #173 on: November 12, 2021, 12:39:58 pm »
Okay, I think I may have misunderstood something, so let me retry my question.  What's the difference between vanilla, and "change 10C629 from F0 to 80", in terms of effect? (erasing the No Skill Counter change will turn it into vanilla)  Because obviously, vanilla doesn't block the HP threshold moves (which is what I want), and apparently, the latter doesn't block the HP threshold moves either.  Is the latter part an addition to your Luck Denies Counter, to make the enemies use HP threshold moves?
vanilla: monster always counters spells/techs
my patch (next update): luck determines chance for those counters
10C629 - F080: monster never counter
all three: bosses can use their "desperation" moves 100%


Also, does that only apply to bosses, or all regular enemies?  If HP threshold moves are guaranteed to regular monsters, then enemies with MT Tech (Bloody Wolves, Nightblades, Dark Lords) would be absurd.  I'm not sure how vanilla works, but I think the regular enemies randomly dont' use their HP threshold moves (and Luck Denies Counter makes that even less, which was what I wanted).
the change applies to all.
the MT techs are just random skills they already can use at will.
afaik the basilisks that grow into petribirds and the pakkun babies that grow into lizards are the only threshold actions for regular monster.



As far as I know, the only attack in the entire game with Moon element (including all enemy skills) is Moon Saber -- I tried to give Moon element to one of Angela's spells, but that backfired spectacularly (it just damaged the caster).
actually half vanish is a moon elemental spell, it deals +25% damage on luna day. it just doesn't respect the weakness/resist/reflect interactions.


I actually used it against some elemental bosses in the beginning of the battle, just so I can cast Jutsus on them.
True, forgot about that.


Having said that, instead of INT not affecting MaxMP at all, can you make it so that INT doesn't increase MaxMP as much as vanilla, and instead PIE increase MaxMP more than vanilla? (at least double of INT)
I think that goes too far and would make walnuts and leaf saber way less useful than they are.


But wouldn't that affect the enemy spells too, assuming they're using the same spell?  I already increased the powers of spells in my Balance patch, and some of those became quite nasty.  Increasing further may be a bit dangerous (although I haven't tested out all of them).
Same as with crit damage, I can just give them a separate branch where they keep the original damage values.

Same as I could give L2/3 techs a damage nerf only for monster - maybe I should do that as well..


I think someone mentioned this before, but I think the "upgraded" staff should increase her cast time, rather than power.  Counting all the weapons with multipliers, it's x2~15, so that's 14 staffs.  If you don't count the first two staffs (as you get the 2nd staff as default/Astoria, which is before getting the first spell), that's 12 upgrades.  If each staff decreases the spell cast time by... 5 frames, that's 60 frames by the final staff.  Her Lv1 spells are 60 frames, so with the final staff (and 2nd class up), she should be able to insta-cast Lv1 spells.  Hmm.  Quite fast.  What do you think?  Too powerful?


Okay, I finished up the EVA mod plan (it took longer than expected, because I kept changing my mind).  I used Duran DL for the character ("c"), and Lise LL for monsters ("m").  Take a look, and let me know what you think.
I'm not too fond of "RNG stats" being that finely tuned (e.g. -10% vs -20%, players won't notice the difference)
But nothing stops us from having two versions.


Some of the fights may be tough, esp the first Gorva.  I mean, in addition to vanila toughness -- 2 characters, no MP healing unless you're with Carlie, Kevin can't transform if he sleeps even once, etc -- Gorva now has high EVA, meaning even melee attacks will miss 15~25% (unless Bird's Scale/Needlion's Eye is used).  Hopefully, people will realize that AGL is important from this fight.
This fight is one of the reasons I think the first class change should come before it as it basically gives almost every class some answer to it.

Hawk either debuff evade (dark) and just direct spell damage (light).
Angela already has Holy Ball so whatever.
Charlie would gain a damage spell.
Lise can either buff your accuracy or debuff his evade.

Duran and Kevin on the light side would just love it if heal hurts undead was a thing here..



Hey, for your Sin of Mana, did you employ the unused Squid boss?  According to wiki, there's an unused Squid boss, and there's even sprite and everything.  Based on the picture, I'm guessing he was supposed to be used in the Seashore Cave.  Make sense, since there was no boss in that place.
Tried, didn't find it. Though I'm fine with there being no boss; just imagine if that fight was "that one boss" level of roadblock. You have no access to the black market, the most recent weapon/armor shop is kinda hidden (at least I had to look up that there even was one).


Is there a strong reason for making scaling lesser healing items?
I always felt it to be strategic in JRPGs to have some fixed amount healing items, as they are simple and reliable, regardless of stats.
Nah, was just a suggestion for those that feel PIE does too little.
At least in speed runs they put one char just on PIE duty because of how good the heal increase for the poto oils is.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2021, 04:31:28 am by praetarius5018 »

Zimgief

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #174 on: November 12, 2021, 02:28:50 pm »
Pratarius5018, your answer to
Quote
I think someone mentioned this before, but I think the "upgraded" staff should increase her cast time, rather than power.  Counting all the weapons with multipliers, it's x2~15, so that's 14 staffs.  If you don't count the first two staffs (as you get the 2nd staff as default/Astoria, which is before getting the first spell), that's 12 upgrades.  If each staff decreases the spell cast time by... 5 frames, that's 60 frames by the final staff.  Her Lv1 spells are 60 frames, so with the final staff (and 2nd class up), she should be able to insta-cast Lv1 spells.  Hmm.  Quite fast.  What do you think?  Too powerful?
got eaten!

Quote
Nah, was just a suggestion for those that feel PIE does too little.
At least in speed runs they put one char just on PIE duty because of how good the heal increase for the poto oils is.
PIE will do enough without this change, increasing MP anyway. :)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 03:24:04 pm by Zimgief »

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #175 on: November 12, 2021, 03:15:22 pm »
I think someone mentioned this before, but I think the "upgraded" staff should increase her cast time, rather than power.  Counting all the weapons with multipliers, it's x2~15, so that's 14 staffs.  If you don't count the first two staffs (as you get the 2nd staff as default/Astoria, which is before getting the first spell), that's 12 upgrades.  If each staff decreases the spell cast time by... 5 frames, that's 60 frames by the final staff.  Her Lv1 spells are 60 frames, so with the final staff (and 2nd class up), she should be able to insta-cast Lv1 spells.  Hmm.  Quite fast.  What do you think?  Too powerful?
Lv1 spells are 60, Lv2 spells 120, Lv3 spells like Ancient have a massive 150 cast time.
+1 for her having 2 class changes. -60 for best staff.
So it goes from 61, 121, 151 to 1, 61, 91...
imo that makes the Lv1 spells OP since you can get "91" out in the time she'd use one Lv3 spell.

I'd maybe agree to such a decrease instead of the class based reduction.
Though I still think a simple modifier to the heal/damage formula would be more tangible for the player; maybe both.

Zimgief

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #176 on: November 12, 2021, 03:28:27 pm »
Quote
Though I still think a simple modifier to the heal/damage formula would be more tangible for the player; maybe both.
The issue being that the boost is supposed to be for Angela only (who needs a reason to buy staves), and the change you're thinking about (if I understood correctly) will be applied to everyone.

Quote
I'd maybe agree to such a decrease instead of the class based reduction.
As long as her level 3 spells are the better option at the price of more mana, it seems fine to me.

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #177 on: November 12, 2021, 03:45:09 pm »
I think someone mentioned this before, but I think the "upgraded" staff should increase her cast time, rather than power.  Counting all the weapons with multipliers, it's x2~15, so that's 14 staffs.  If you don't count the first two staffs (as you get the 2nd staff as default/Astoria, which is before getting the first spell), that's 12 upgrades.  If each staff decreases the spell cast time by... 5 frames, that's 60 frames by the final staff.  Her Lv1 spells are 60 frames, so with the final staff (and 2nd class up), she should be able to insta-cast Lv1 spells.  Hmm.  Quite fast.  What do you think?  Too powerful?
unless Bird's Scale/Needlion's Eye is used).  Hopefully, people will realize that AGL is important from this fight.

Again, Angela's sole role is doing damage. If she takes too long to do it, she's useless, so the way I see it, there needs to be a trade, either she gets helped by casting a little faster (tangibly faster, to be relevant) or she continues casting slowly but breaks the damage cap or something crazy like that to compensate for the long wait times. Other characters can do other things, but she's just that, an offensive caster.

I reached the secret shop and it was a huge help, thanks HMSong! only Zable left now. Hawk and Duran's damage evened out again (I'm using Pedan gear currently) and using the Forest of Illusion enemies as a baseline (high 30s, low 40s level wise, party at Lv34).

praetarius5018

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #178 on: November 12, 2021, 04:51:34 pm »

Again, Angela's sole role is doing damage.
That.. is actually something that I didn't take into account.
Lise gains (de)buffs.
Charlie can always heal and more.
Duran&Kevin gain heal on light side OR gain buffs on dark side.
Hawk has debuffs on dark; light has at minimum crowd control (sleep flower, body change) and as wanderer also gains buffs.

But Angela has purely damage spells (unless she goes for rune master which matters for like one dungeon unless you grind a ton). And then she doesn't even reach the top 2 (Hawk with lunatic or deadly weapon can remove over 10k with one spell, Kevin is Kevin).


The issue being that the boost is supposed to be for Angela only (who needs a reason to buy staves), and the change you're thinking about (if I understood correctly) will be applied to everyone.
Going for an Angela only change seems weird to me; I get that she would need a buff in some way (see above).
At least Charlie would have to get a "need" weapon upgrades since she also has little use for it currently.

I might be willing to give Angela/staves a slightly bigger bonus per weapon "level" but ONLY for staves feels just wrong; it would mean that a dedicated heal bot is cheaper than a random dps.

Red Soul

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Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
« Reply #179 on: November 12, 2021, 05:06:12 pm »
But Angela has purely damage spells (unless she goes for rune master which matters for like one dungeon unless you grind a ton). And then she doesn't even reach the top 2 (Hawk with lunatic or deadly weapon can remove over 10k with one spell, Kevin is Kevin).
Precisely my point, yes.

Also, I always felt the last class changes come too late to be relevant for most of the game. 15/30 instead of 18/38 are much more sensible level thresholds in my opinion).

I might be willing to give Angela/staves a slightly bigger bonus per weapon "level" but ONLY for staves feels just wrong; it would mean that a dedicated heal bot is cheaper than a random dps.

Not sure how to apply the same principles to Carlie, but I guess with enough brainstorming a balance will be reached. I just have a hard time caring about her at all, haha.