Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion

[Red Soul]

Is it possible to change or add properties to Angela's staves?
The fact they grant attack increases is pretty useless, to be honestl

if they enhanced her magic, it would be a much better incentive to waste heaps of gold on them.

[hmsong]

Is it possible to change or add properties to Angela's staves?
The fact they grant attack increases is pretty useless, to be honestl

if they enhanced her magic, it would be a much better incentive to waste heaps of gold on them.

I think that's a little too far for "bugfix + minor mechanic balance change".  There's a hack called Sin of Mana (by none other than praetarius5018) for that.  That hack has lots of things of your interest, such as staves that shoot fireballs and stuff.  I put a link to that in all my documents.

Also, the Angela/Carlie weapons are cheaper than Duran/Kevin weapons.

[Zimgief]

Is skippable_spell_animation.ips from Sin of Mana (which looks very cool by the way, as a heavier mod of the game) compatible with SD3 Bugfix Edition? Long animations are also a reason why I tended to use melee characters. (Even in a game like Final Fantasy VII, I avoid invocations because they take too muck of my time, despite the fact they can be more effective. x) )

[Red Soul]

Also, the Angela/Carlie weapons are cheaper than Duran/Kevin weapons.

Yes indeed, but still a waste of Lucre for what they bring to the table.

Edit: Left a nice review to the latest version of your patch set, HMSong. You deserve it!
I'm now facing the God Beasts (4 left). Using the best gear available, Hawk's damage has fallen off slightly from Duran's (10 points less on average), but they are still on the same ballpark. I'll take note again when stats are maxed out.

[praetarius5018]

Also, I don't know what that last sentence was.  Maybe something is being lost due to English being my 2nd language.  I know that pun means something like, "play on words", but I don't get it .  Then again, I'm not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.

sigh, explaining a joke ruins it but here I go:
SD3 uses HiRom, so the addressing is easy: just subtract Cxxxxx if it starts with C-F.
Super Metroid is LoRom, addressing there is messy, like you get A08BE0 for 100BE0 and several addresses being illegal; e.g. for xxYxxx if Y is less than 8 that is not allowed but half the emulators silently fix it; e.g. if I wrote A00BE0 it may just treat it as A08BE0 while others go to a nonsensical area of all 0s.
And no matter how often I look the logic behind that up I can never wrap my head around it.
So I kinda dread going back to that mess from the comfort that is HiRom addressing of my metroid hack, not be confused with Metroid Dread which released recently.

Ok, joke is now dead, funeral at saturday.

It's probably what you expected.  3 bytes from 10C62B, and 3 bytes from 10C6CC (changing back to vanilla values) -- exactly as you taught me.  Obviously, I'm willing to change all that (well, more likely just remove them, which I already did in one of the Balance variants).

undo those and instead change 10C629 from F0 to 80.
at least arch demon still transformed with that.

Also, I think AntiMagic was supposed to remove at least the natural absorb/reflect.  Otherwise, Black Rabite would be almost impossible to beat, since you can't neutralize his dark absorb -- if you don't have kevin or hawk (who are not necessary characters for the necessary Duran/Angela scenario), he's pretty much impossible to beat without AntiMagic (Specter's Eye), because he'll just keep recovering his HP, and then spam his spell combo.

Could be.
Should I just add removal to regular resistance (which more used than immunity) to anti-magic? I don't think this would change balance much since weapons and the majority of the strongest spells are neutral anyway.

Is it possible to change or add properties to Angela's staves?
The fact they grant attack increases is pretty useless, to be honestl

if they enhanced her magic, it would be a much better incentive to waste heaps of gold on them.

I'm not entirely opposed to this.

first staff: x2+10
desert area staff: x8+18
best staff (D/D): x15+28
L1 spells: x6+10
L2 spells: x8+15
L3 spells: x10+20

We could modify the spell values with a portion of the weapons value (and subtract a base to make it not too OP), like:
spell (and monster keep it as is):
x(weapon factor / 4 + spell factor - 2)+(weapon base/2+spell base - 9)
this would cut even around the desert area and for endgame you'd almost move up one spell tier;

L1 spell with first staff: x4.5+6
L1 spell with desert staff: x6+10
L1 spell with endgame staff: x7.75+15
L2 spell with endgame staff: x9.75+20
L3 spell with endgame staff: x11.75+25

Considering we plan 2 nerfs to casting with cast time fix and reduced counter denial this sounds not unwarranted to me.

Is skippable_spell_animation.ips from Sin of Mana (which looks very cool by the way, as a heavier mod of the game) compatible with SD3 Bugfix Edition?

As it currently is: no.

I'm now facing the God Beasts (4 left). Using the best gear available, Hawk's damage has fallen off slightly from Duran's (10 points less on average), but they are still on the same ballpark. I'll take note again when stats are maxed out.

For those comparisons it'd be nice to know where you are level wise compared to the enemies.

[Red Soul]

For those comparisons it'd be nice to know where you are level wise compared to the enemies.

True, true.
Party is Lv 29 and enemies are around lv 36 (Forest of Wonder).

[Zimgief]

I don't know about Angela's staves increasing magic damage. Reasons against it:
- Carlie, which by default is not as good a DPS, will be comparatively even weaker
- staves would be the only weapon type to do that (exception to game rules)
- non-attacking spells would not benefit from the bonus (admittedly, not my strongest point, as INT do not boost them either)
- it IS useful to increase physical damage when saving MPs against trash mobs. The whole point of using the attack button with her would be lost.

So the idea is interesting for sure, but it changes a lot in game design without any real benefit. Buying weapons for Angela is not the highest priority, true, but in the game as it is, they serve their purpose anyway.

Note: maybe hmsong could include such a change in his patch if interested? As it focuses on rethinking classes in a more drastic way.

[Red Soul]

I'd like to offer a few counter-points to your counter-points, if I may:

- Carlie, which by default is not as good a DPS, will be comparatively even weaker

She isn't supposed to be good with DPS. Carlie is a support character even in her Dark-Dark branches (healing, sabering, summons);
she is a generalist (and very good at that) and isn't supposed to excel in any one area. Angela is the complete opposite, a pure offensive mage, her only role is doing damage, so if cast time gets fixed and counter tendencies get reworked, she might as well
do as much damage as possible before getting blasted herself.

- staves would be the only weapon type to do that (exception to game rules)

It's just an initial pitch, mind you. Maybe Carlie's flails could add some Spirit or something at some point, but I reiterate other characters don't need nearly as much help as Angela does to stay relevant (Carile has her niches - most of her spells are buffs, debuffs and sabers, for which damage doesn't matter).

- non-attacking spells would not benefit from the bonus (admittedly, not my strongest point, as INT do not boost them either)

If INT increased cast time, Angela would probably reach near-zero times just as if one had the insta-cast patch active.
In any case, most non-attack spells have rather negligible cast times (again, Carlie doesn't need nearly as much help as Angela does, in my opinion).

- it IS useful to increase physical damage when saving MPs against trash mobs. The whole point of using the attack button with her would be lost.

There was never a point to attacking physically with her. Her strength cap is low (as it should) and any real attacker would be done with the mobs on screen aeons before she would. She might as well not even have an attack button assigned.

So the idea is interesting for sure, but it changes a lot in game design without any real benefit. Buying weapons for Angela is not the highest priority, true, but in the game as it is, they serve their purpose anyway.

I disagree there wouldn't be a benefit. Again, this rationale comes from a situation with either A) Vanilla casting delays or B) Casting bug is fixed. Even with the double hitter balance, Angela wouldn't remain competitive damage wise (again, her ONLY role, unlike Carlie).

Note: maybe hmsong could include such a change in his patch if interested? As it focuses on rethinking classes in a more drastic way.

Yeah that could work, for sure. I'm not trying to be disrespectful or anything, so hopefully I'm not crossing lines here.

[praetarius5018]

I don't know about Angela's staves increasing magic damage. Reasons against it:
- Carlie, which by default is not as good a DPS, will be comparatively even weaker
- staves would be the only weapon type to do that (exception to game rules)
- non-attacking spells would not benefit from the bonus (admittedly, not my strongest point, as INT do not boost them either)
- it IS useful to increase physical damage when saving MPs against trash mobs. The whole point of using the attack button with her would be lost.

So the idea is interesting for sure, but it changes a lot in game design without any real benefit. Buying weapons for Angela is not the highest priority, true, but in the game as it is, they serve their purpose anyway.

Note: maybe hmsong could include such a change in his patch if interested? As it focuses on rethinking classes in a more drastic way.

If that is directed at me - it would be for all weapons or none.
Getting the multiplier and base atk of a given equipped weapon is easy, checking if the equipped weapon is a rod is an adventure and a half.

It would also affect heal light at least.

If you want something less extreme we could mod cast time based on the equipped weapons base power (again, assuming fixed cast time), either in addition or instead of the 30 frame reduction per class change.

True, true.
Party is Lv 29 and enemies are around lv 36 (Forest of Wonder).

And here's a design question: what is the correct level for a given area?
I'd say up to and including the desert/snowfield section you can keep up comfortably with the monster level, maybe 1 level behind for a short while, but after that you drop more and more behind. Tbh, the only reason I ever had Lv40+ in my playthroughs was because I grinded for the ??? seeds.



Other things to think about:
-the player has 2 magic defs, one that is not hinted at at all (PIE based); wouldn't it make more sense for the player to just use INT-m.def for all?

There was never a point to attacking physically with her. Her strength cap is low (as it should) and any real attacker would be done with the mobs on screen aeons before she would. She might as well not even have an attack button assigned.

To iterate how bad she has it:
even with max STR and her best weapon (240 atk) she can't break through the highest mob defense (245) unless she has either power up or uses a L1-3 tech.

[Red Soul]

And here's a design question: what is the correct level for a given area?
I'd say up to and including the desert/snowfield section you can keep up comfortably with the monster level, maybe 1 level behind for a short while, but after that you drop more and more behind. Tbh, the only reason I ever had Lv40+ in my playthroughs was because I grinded for the ??? seeds.

It's the same case for me, I only "grind" to find the darned seeds. I'm using HMSong's shop patches (as well as class balance) in conjunction with bugfix (bugfix first), so I'm hoping this will alleviate that annoyance.

Other things to think about:
-the player has 2 magic defs, one that is not hinted at at all (PIE based); wouldn't it make more sense for the player to just use INT-m.def for all?

Yes, that is true, though I personally think PIE Mdef should affect Light and Dark magic damage taken, and maybe debuff likeihood
(although it's mostly my headcanon and I don't know if that's possible or even desirable as a balance point).

To iterate how bad she has it:
even with max STR and her best weapon (240 atk) she can't break through the highest mob defense (245) unless she has either power up or uses a L1-3 tech.

That's what I gleaned empirically, yes. Not exactly Donatello levels of staff oombat here.

[gamingcat02261991]

The one thing I never understood is why ROM-sharing sites that I won't mention never uploaded the recent localized version of the game like they never uploaded the limited-time localized version of the first Fire Emblem game outside of the digital Switch game format... There could've been a .sfc and a .fds, respectively, but no.

[Red Soul]

The one thing I never understood is why ROM-sharing sites that I won't mention never uploaded the recent localized version of the game like they never uploaded the limited-time localized version of the first Fire Emblem game outside of the digital Switch game format... There could've been a .sfc and a .fds, respectively, but no.

It would instantly set them on Nintendo's sights for massive lawsuits. It's a gray area no matter how you slice it, but when you offer up the freshest, newest iteration of something, you're turning up the heat considerably. Not worth the risk.

[Messianic]

@praetorius

So this may be off topic, but I just couldn't play through Sin of Mana much because of the death penalty, but I didn't want to play on the super easy modes. I realized I had to turn off using tech for npc party members just to survive Full Metal Hugger. Is there any way you could separate the death penalty garbage from the rest of the hack? It gives no real purpose other than a massive FU to the player if they don't perfectly nail a boss the first time, or even if a random crit takes them out. Honestly Angel Grail being over 1K is ludicrous too. Please cut their costs down to like 300 and make them resurrect you with 25% hp if you have to.

[Red Soul]

@praetorius

So this may be off topic, but I just couldn't play through Sin of Mana much because of the death penalty, but I didn't want to play on the super easy modes. I realized I had to turn off using tech for npc party members just to survive Full Metal Hugger. Is there any way you could separate the death penalty garbage from the rest of the hack? It gives no real purpose other than a massive FU to the player if they don't perfectly nail a boss the first time, or even if a random crit takes them out. Honestly Angel Grail being over 1K is ludicrous too. Please cut their costs down to like 300 and make them resurrect you with 25% hp if you have to.

I agree, the death penalty kept me from trying the harder modes as well. But then again, I'm not a glutton for punishment and near-vanilla levels of difficulty suit me just fine haha.

I guess Praetarius doesn't have a Sin of Mana thread here so he doesn't have to keep watching both here and NGPlus for feedback and suggestions.

[Zimgief]

I'm not trying to be disrespectful or anything, so hopefully I'm not crossing lines here.

There is no reason to think that.

Ok, weapons for Angela really are worthless, after all. I understand the need of an incentive to buy her new staves.

The fact that changes apply to all weapons (swords, flails, etc.), doesn't make a lot of sense, flavourwise (ex. Duran's swords improving his healing abilities). I don't know if there is any satisfying answer here, but it's worth trying to find one! 

Other things to think about:
-the player has 2 magic defs, one that is not hinted at at all (PIE based); wouldn't it make more sense for the player to just use INT-m.def for all?

Spirit is described as giving "defense of indirect magic" p.23 of the translated manual. Is it what you are alluding to?
I suppose this magic defense helps the stat to be a bit more valuable for physical classes. Otherwise, it would changes nothing at all for them to get points in it (level-upping or changing class). So I think the game designers acutally did a good job on this stat in particular. :p

[Messianic]

I like that some off the lesser-values stats like DEXterity, luck, and PIEty are getting more love in these hacks. Usually maxing out strength and CONstitution are no brained, and only putting points in other stuff when you can't do those first 2, or to learn a certain skill.

Has anyone figured out how to hack the level up arrows so dexterity, constitution, and piety can have their 3 letters changed to AGI, VIT, and SPT? (I'd rather have the original stay names back but I don't think anyone know how to text hack this anymore.)

[hmsong]

@Red Soul

Thanks for the review.  I appreciate it.  Also, for your next playthrough, can you try out my Better Monster?  I put a lot of work on it, and I want to see how it stands to the opinions of other people.



@praetarius5018

Ohh.  So that's what you meant with the joke.  Heh.  I didn't know the difference between HiRom and LoRom.  I'm just using elementary hacking to do this, so I don't know what I'm doing for the most part.

undo those and instead change 10C629 from F0 to 80.
at least arch demon still transformed with that.

Will you put that in your next update?  Because if so, then it's exactly what some people here would want (they want Luck Denies Counter with signature enemy skill/transformation guaranteed).  One of my variants don't add No Skill Counter, or modify any mechanics, so I wouldn't have to do anything (not that I mind doing things).  On the other hand, it seems some people want No Skill Counter.  So I want people to choose what they want, among the available options.  So far, we have 1. Luck Denies Counter, 2. No Skill Counter, 3. Luck Denies Counter + No Skill Counter.  Assuming nobody picks #3 (that's just crippling), the main complaint about #1 is that it also denies boss-unique transformation.

Should I just add removal to regular resistance (which more used than immunity) to anti-magic? I don't think this would change balance much since weapons and the majority of the strongest spells are neutral anyway.

If you're gonna add removal to AntiMagic, then I personally prefer you remove everything, including the weakness and immunity.  That way, it's "fair" to the target that gets AntiMagiced -- loses all his elemental defense, but also loses his weakness.  Or is that too powerful or something?

Also, if possible, can you make it so that bosses' Counter Magic at least reflects Holy element?  I actually prefer it reflect all elements, but I assume the devs left holes in bosses' Counter Magic to ensure Angela isn't crippled against Counter Magic.  Anyways, I said Holy element, because I want Carlie D's summon spell to have something over Carlie L's Holy Ball.

Other things to think about:
-the player has 2 magic defs, one that is not hinted at at all (PIE based); wouldn't it make more sense for the player to just use INT-m.def for all?

When I first played the game, I thought INT was for M.Def (because I saw that INT affected M.Def in the stat screen), and PIE was for M.Atk.  And I thought Angela should only raise her PIE, because I wanted to increase her magic attack, and her Holy Ball reflected that.  Boy, was I wrong.  If you intend on changing the mechanics of M.Atk and M.Def, then I propose that INT is for M.Atk (since Angela has the highest INT stat), and PIE for M.Def (Carlie is already too powerful, so she can use a bit of nerf to her attack spells and heal light).  Hopefully, that change will reflect in the menu stat screen.  And if needed, I'm willing to create a different Balance hack, specifically that reflects the bugfix changes (ex: Holy Ball will use INT stat instead of PIE stat).



@Zimgief

I never experimented with weapons increasing INT.  Let's say there is a way (I don't know if there is though).  The idea of her staves increasing her magic spells is indeed interesting.  Her spells can always use more damage output, at least after the first class up... as long as it doesn't power up monster spells too.

The problem is, if I make the weapons increase her spell damage by increasing her INT stat, then it'll also increase her magic defense against INT spells (which is almost all of them).  I don't want her weapons to increase her magic defense, at least in the way that it reflects in the menu screen.  She already has the highest magic defense in the game.

Also, Carlie is one of the most useful character in the game, despite her not being a DPS character.  I actually place her the highest in the tier list -- yes, even above vanilla Kevin and Hawk.  She can heal almost as soon as the first boss is beaten.  Free healing is absurdly useful, and you know it.  Then in the L classes, she gets all primary SABERS, MT heal, and a holy attack spell.  She's pretty much unstoppable with that, esp her LD class -- due to a bug, her LD class gets Black Curse class item from the ??? Seeds, so that's pretty much a gamebreaker for her.  I tried to make her D classes a bit more competitive with my balance patch (her vanilla D classes are useless, relative to her L classes) -- her DL got Revive spell (Ghost), and her DD got spell damage beefed up (including Demon Breath).



@Messianic

@praetorius

So this may be off topic, but I just couldn't play through Sin of Mana much because of the death penalty, but I didn't want to play on the super easy modes. I realized I had to turn off using tech for npc party members just to survive Full Metal Hugger. Is there any way you could separate the death penalty garbage from the rest of the hack? It gives no real purpose other than a massive FU to the player if they don't perfectly nail a boss the first time, or even if a random crit takes them out. Honestly Angel Grail being over 1K is ludicrous too. Please cut their costs down to like 300 and make them resurrect you with 25% hp if you have to.

You know that there's Sin of Mana forum, right?  I think you might find answers to that there, as I'm sure multiple people asked that.  And there are other people who can answer that too (and you can hear the opposite side of that argument).  The thing is, you can't satisfy everyone.  Some people prefer one thing, and others prefer the opposite.  And sometimes, hackers just want to put ideas into the games.  As a hacker myself (sort of), I can say that we listen and value others' opinions, but sometimes, we also want to express our own ideas into the hacks, regardless of what others may think of it.  For example, NOBODY liked my idea of nerfing Angel's Grail (based on reviews and what was posted here), but I did it anyways, because I wanted to, and I still think it's a good idea.

[Red Soul]

@Red Soul

Thanks for the review.  I appreciate it.  Also, for your next playthrough, can you try out my Better Monster?  I put a lot of work on it, and I want to see how it stands to the opinions of other people.

I was under the impression "Better Monsters" was part of the bugfix now, that's why I didn't add it, my apologies. I'll certainly try it next time. Let me know if you require a specific party for field testing.

[Zimgief]

Magic Defense

When I first played the game, I thought INT was for M.Def (because I saw that INT affected M.Def in the stat screen), and PIE was for M.Atk.  And I thought Angela should only raise her PIE, because I wanted to increase her magic attack, and her Holy Ball reflected that.  Boy, was I wrong.  If you intend on changing the mechanics of M.Atk and M.Def, then I propose that INT is for M.Atk (since Angela has the highest INT stat), and PIE for M.Def (Carlie is already too powerful, so she can use a bit of nerf to her attack spells and heal light).  Hopefully, that change will reflect in the menu stat screen.  And if needed, I'm willing to create a different Balance hack, specifically that reflects the bugfix changes (ex: Holy Ball will use INT stat instead of PIE stat).

This makes sense for any people familiar with RPGs, sure... but developers were onto something, by insuring every stat has an impact for non-casters. With this change, INT would be useless to them.

(ex: Holy Ball will use INT stat instead of PIE stat).

Interesting... It adds weight to Red Soul's idea, that PIE increases Holy and Dark m.defenses, as Holy is already treated differently in offense (and it makes sense that it also protects against Dark). But realistically, it would not read well on the status screen, as it shows only one m.def stat. 

Counter Magic
Just an idea (I don't think it's very solid), along the lines of tying holy and dark m.def to PIE: what about Counter Magic reflects all except Holy and Dark, be it cast by player, or boss? It doesn't hinder Angela, if that was the developers' purpose with their curious omissions (she has access to light and dark magic).

Angela's Staves
Without any changes to weapons (which affect other characters), what do you think about changing her techs? I might be off-track as I don't know what are the original formulas. But her techs, in addition to p.att, could use her INT stat (worth to use tech even if normal attacks do close to nothing) + weapon level (buying new weapons would increase her techniques' effectivness)?

[Red Soul]

Magic DefenseThis makes sense for any people familiar with RPGs, sure... but developers were onto something, by insuring every stat has an impact for non-casters. With this change, INT would be useless to them. :(Interesting... It adds weight to Red Soul's idea, that PIE increases Holy and Dark m.defenses, as Holy is already treated differently in offense (and it makes sense that it also protects against Dark). But realistically, it would not read well on the status screen, as it shows only one m.def stat. 

True, there is no per-element defense display on the stat screen. Come to think of it, the stat screen is pretty basic. It's a pity it is not more informative.

Counter Magic
Just an idea (I don't think it's very solid), along the lines of tying holy and dark m.def to PIE: what about Counter Magic reflects all except Holy and Dark, be it cast by player, or boss? It doesn't hinder Angela, if that was the developers' purpose with their curious omissions (she has access to light and dark magic).

Sometimes I think a lot of the mechanical side of the game was rushed out of the door, honestly - maybe to meet some sort of pressing deadline back in 95. Proof of that is we are trying to brainstorm sensible paths to give it all proper weight and balance, all these years later.

Angela's Staves
Without any changes to weapons (which affect other characters), what do you think about changing her techs? I might be off-track as I don't know what are the original formulas. But her techs, in addition to p.att, could use her INT stat (worth to use tech even if normal attacks do close to nothing) + weapon level (buying new weapons would increase her techniques' effectivness)?

If her techs used magic stats, they would be pretty strong, I imagine. But something tells me techs might be hard coded to work as physicals.