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Author Topic: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida  (Read 36778 times)

Piotyr

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #220 on: June 27, 2021, 08:09:56 am »
DQ7 and 8 for 3ds scares me, will they be super spicey? At least I have 5 and 6 before then
« Last Edit: June 27, 2021, 08:15:40 am by Piotyr »

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #221 on: June 27, 2021, 08:16:52 am »
Ff7 and 8 for 3ds scares me, will they be super spicey? At least I have 5 and 6 before then
I think you mean DQ7 & 8.

All the contemporary scripts since the release of DQ8 for PS2 are essentially the same. Yes, with slightly varying degrees, they will be spicey.

But let me step back for a moment and say something mature.

You can still capture the core essence of Dragon Quest and Horii's incredible story telling in spite of those elements we find incongruous and artificial. I'm playing through DQ9 right now with all that added flavor, and I can still love the game, and I'm very grateful it was released in English. There was a time that we didn't even get translations, so even a flawed version of a Dragon Quest game is still something to treasure. So as much as I despise the elements I have gone on about endlessly, and as much as I feel that our work improves the games overall, we are still not pulling a Breath of Fire II Ryusui script in restoring something from unplayable to playable. We should have some measure of gratitude that we have playable versions of every main series game but X and PSX IV.

Piotyr

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #222 on: June 27, 2021, 08:18:38 am »
I think you mean DQ7 & 8.

All the contemporary scripts since the release of DQ8 for PS2 are essentially the same. Yes, with slightly varying degrees they will be spicey.

But let me step back for a moment and say something mature.

You can still capture the core essence of Dragon Quest and Horii's incredible story telling in spite of those elements we find incongruous and artificial. I'm playing through DQ9 right now with all that added flavor, and I can still love the game, and I'm very grateful it was released in English. There was a time that we didn't even get translations, so even a flawed version of a Dragon Quest game is something to treasure. So as much as I despise the elements I have gone on about endlessly, and as much as I feel that our work improves the games overall, we are still not pulling a Breath of Fire II in restoring something from unplayable to unplayable. We should have some measure of gratitude that we have playable versions of every game but X.
I played to the post game of 9, very fun but hoping for a remake so we get online features without hacks

tc

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #223 on: June 27, 2021, 01:02:10 pm »
To sound like someone else for a moment:
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Square-Enix would be smart to pay us, if it wasn't for the fact that the mainstream English audience has become entirely addicted to their constant artificial puns and ridiculous accents.

Pardon my cultural ignorance, but isn't that because Japanese writing in general tends to have qualities off-putting to English audiences unfamiliar with it? Their particular systems of honorifics and politeness have no smooth analogue in the English language.

Special

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #224 on: June 27, 2021, 04:13:05 pm »
Due to a matter of editorial respect, I'm leaving RPGOne team's translation decisions unchanged. That's not my task, just to make fully playable without glitches that historical translation (that I think is a good job even though there're those little freedoms or licenses).

I'm behind on this thread and have no intention of keeping up because most of it is LOL at this point (Chicken Knife and co. should probably leave and circle jerk elsewhere...), but I just want to give a shout-out to Rod for this quote and hope he sticks by it! All these re-translation are God awful terrible with maybe like a 2% chance of them being good (like the Ryusui BoF one for example).

The only reason I care about these old and (often terrible by today's standards) games like one this nowadays is because of childhood memories of playing them, and these re-translation (Chicken Knife and co.) that they like to do just completely ruin that. Tried playing that recent DQ: Monsters re-translation and it was totally ruined by completely different names for almost everything, all printed strategy guides are ruined, GameFAQ's walk-throughs are now hard to follow, etc. I'll take typos and inaccuracies any day over what we got with that DQ: Monsters one...

More people need to do what Rod does here and just stick to making them fully playable without glitches.

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #225 on: June 27, 2021, 05:47:07 pm »
All these re-translation are God awful terrible with maybe like a 2% chance of them being good (like the Ryusui BoF one for example).

I could not agree more!!

and hope he sticks by it!
I swear I will!

More people need to do what Rod does here and just stick to making them fully playable without glitches.
I hope to be preaching with actions.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2021, 06:13:21 pm by RodMerida »

nejimakipiyo

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #226 on: June 27, 2021, 06:15:53 pm »
The only reason I care about these old and (often terrible by today's standards) games like one this nowadays is because of childhood memories of playing them, and these re-translation (Chicken Knife and co.) that they like to do just completely ruin that. Tried playing that recent DQ: Monsters re-translation and it was totally ruined by completely different names for almost everything, all printed strategy guides are ruined, GameFAQ's walk-throughs are now hard to follow, etc. I'll take typos and inaccuracies any day over what we got with that DQ: Monsters one...

If you think having an accurate translation ruins a game, you are very much not the target audience of our work. And it's ok not to be! As Chicken Knife said, we don't expect everybody to like what we do. But there are people who appreciate translation accuracy and authenticity, and those people deserve to have good translations.

I played Dragon Warrior Monsters in its official English form over 20 times as a kid/teen. It's my favourite game of all time, not hyperbole. And I never knew what I was missing out on until I played it in Japanese. Then I managed to kick my nostalgia in the ass to create a flawless translation (with Chicken Knife's help, of course) and a brand new guide to go with it so that people who rely on guides to play would have an obstacle removed. If you still don't like it regardless of that, the problem isn't with our translation.


More people need to do what Rod does here and just stick to making them fully playable without glitches.

We definitely need more people squishing bugs, but imo we need more people improving translations too. There are still many games I refuse to play in English because of translations with too much stylization or fan translations with poor English.
To each their own. That's why having options is important. :)

tc

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #227 on: June 27, 2021, 08:24:36 pm »
I'm behind on this thread and have no intention of keeping up because most of it is LOL at this point (Chicken Knife and co. should probably leave and circle jerk elsewhere...), but I just want to give a shout-out to Rod for this quote and hope he sticks by it! All these re-translation are God awful terrible with maybe like a 2% chance of them being good (like the Ryusui BoF one for example).

The only reason I care about these old and (often terrible by today's standards) games like one this nowadays is because of childhood memories of playing them, and these re-translation (Chicken Knife and co.) that they like to do just completely ruin that. Tried playing that recent DQ: Monsters re-translation and it was totally ruined by completely different names for almost everything, all printed strategy guides are ruined, GameFAQ's walk-throughs are now hard to follow, etc. I'll take typos and inaccuracies any day over what we got with that DQ: Monsters one...

More people need to do what Rod does here and just stick to making them fully playable without glitches.

If you don't like Horii's work, fine. Don't criticize the translator over the writer's decisions.

saldite

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #228 on: June 28, 2021, 08:25:33 am »
Yeah was just asking about DQ translations. I am guessing the ds version has accents a plenty and will make me cry
Just dropping in to comment on this a bit off-topically, but I'm really amazed with how much shit DQ4 DS gets, that for some reason it's a popular sentiment that the localization team got "better" with 5DS. Like, opinions on the accents and colorization aside (not a huge fan of the direction of liberties taken with the DQ games either in the official releases), with DQ4, most of the accents and stuff were at least Eurasian in origin and were of a kind where I could look at them and go, "yeah, that kind of fits in a western fantasy, i'm okay with this, i guess."

DQ5, like Chicken Knife said, is absolutely bonkers the decisions they made and I'm surprised more people aren't pissy about 5. Off the top of my head:
Spoiler:
  • A whole town of people who talk like stoners for no reason because DUDE TREES LMAO
  • A character who talks like Ned Flanders complete with diddly-di-dos
  • Making a key character talk like Slowpoke Rodriguez because... Uh...
  • IN SOVIET RUSSIA, LOCALIZED VILLAINS MAKES YAKOV SMIRNOFF JOKES ABOUT YOU

Special Mention:
Spoiler:
I hate the goddamn Count Uptaten joke so fucking much its unreal

The other localized games I can deal with or, at times, even really like some of their localization decisions, but 5 really is just bleh.

@Rod, More on topic: I'm sure you're probably already aware with DQ3 whenever you go to do it, but it looks like status effect messages (icons?) are broken in the English one. It's never really a big issue since I can usually tell who's been hit with what just from the enemy I'm fighting, but I know being dazzled and silenced (StopSpell) give broken text on the character info in battle.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 08:31:00 am by saldite »

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #229 on: June 28, 2021, 10:17:05 am »
(Chicken Knife and co. should probably leave and circle jerk elsewhere...)
In spite of this being an absolute troll comment, yes, I probably should have ditched this negative thread a long time ago. Much apologies for wasted breath. I tend to invest far too much discussion in vain hopes that individuals will come to broader & more inclusive perspectives. What an utter waste of energy & time.

The spitefulness in this community continues to be lamentable, whether it be from content consumers who never produced anything, complaining about works that don't fit their preferences, or from content creators (who do very similar works in this case) complaining about and diminishing works that others do. It is baffling, and very unconducive to the continued vibrancy and productivity of this community.

Felipefpl

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #230 on: June 28, 2021, 11:23:31 am »
RodMerida - suggestion: for a cosmetic reason instead of the way the changelog is now it would be nice if it was like this:

1.01 - This was the first stable version of this patch. It fixes an issue when searching things with the Hero dead, that happened in the 1.0 version.

1.02 - Fixes one more bug left from the RPGOne's translation. If, after Rolando falls ill due to his curse in the inn of Beranule, the protagonist died, and we try to search something, the name of the princess appears like "do,,,R" instead "Linda", "Maria", "Airin" or whatever name she has assigned in that game.

It also replaces one misnaming of the princess Laura, in the RPGOne's translation, as princess Gwaelin, at the beginning of DQ1.

1.03 - Not necessary to press three times the A button when making field magic spells anymore.

1.03a - It replaces the key item name "Ball of Light" by "Light Orb" in the whole game.

1.03c - Splash screen replaced to a milder one.

- Item name "Statue of Evil" in inventory is unified to "Eye of Malroth", how it's mentioned in dialogs, to avoid confusions.

- Consequently, final boss name Shidor passes to Malroth.

- Interrupted message "Oh, [name], it seems you've died... in battle!", that appeared like "Oh, [name], it seems you've di... in battle!" fixed, and erased the code that made its first line pass quickly.

- Added double "L" to "Firebal" spell name, that passes to "Fireball".

- Removed unnecessary spaces after spell names in battle, when learning new spells.

- An ENTER code added in the messages that appear after using the field spells Heal and HealMore, to avoid the name "Samantha" makes text window be overflown.

- Removed unnecessary spaces at the end of some few item names, like Torch, Club, Lithograph.

- Untranslated enemy name Meda (shortened version of Medama, "Eye Ball") changed to Eyeba.

- Enemy name "Kiss Dragon" fixed to "Kith Dragon".

- Typo "mircale" fixed to "miracle" in "if you hold your statue over your head, it's said a miracle occurs."

1.03d - Due to having removed the bug requiring to press an extra time A-Button when using field spells from the RPGOne's translation, there was a text overflow when using Antidote over someone healthy, as a field spell, too. This version fixes it.

1.04 - Fixed a bug that made the amount of money stored in the vault be misinformed, when this was bigger than 65535 gold pieces, giving the player the wrong idea the bank gold counter had been restarted and we had lost our money, that we could extract back anyway.

- Many little errors of text windows overflow by one or to characters fixed.

- Some garbage symbols added to the hero's name in two soldiers' dialogs at the end of DQ2, in the throne room, fixed.

1.05 - Fixed the bug in Dragon Quest 1 that didn't let you save the game after reaching level 30.

- Fixed the bug in Dragon Quest 2 that blocked the game if the Descendant's Orb was used after having defeated Hargon.

- Fixed a misnaming bug when using the Descendant's Orb after having defeated Hargon, that could make the name of the prince of
Cannock or the princess be repeated twice, instead the Hero's name being mentioned; text overflow by 2 letters, in this dialog, also fixed.

- Wrong pointer that made some Dragon Quest 2 villagers tell you "open that treasure chest" in the middle of a city, after having defeated Hargon, fixed.
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RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #231 on: June 28, 2021, 12:32:49 pm »
Hmmm.
The versions listed at the bottom contain changes that are summarizable in the list of characteristics of the patch above.

When a version adds new characteristics to the main list, that are not includable in the list above, I put them after these ones so the reader may discover them quickly and he really learns to appreciate the achievements of this patch in its full extension.

Anyway you sort of made a point; let me think a little about how I could re-order the thing for next readme update.


June 28, 2021, 12:37:03 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
By the way, in case nobody has noticed, there is a new update of this patch (1.05a) that removes the so controversial automatic spinning in the famous cracktro splash screen (that is optional since version 1.03c; it requires pressing SELECT in the static splash with DQ2 art to be activated).

I hope this definitely ends any remaining point controversy for once and ever.

June 28, 2021, 12:50:17 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
but it looks like status effect messages (icons?) are broken in the English one.
That's a really tough one.
I'd say it happens more in battles than in the field menu, since it doesn't happen with all altered effects, and effects where it does, like "sleep", finish once the fight is over.

The difficulty of fixing this is how to find them inside the ROM, since they're either isolated letters, or non-alphabetical characters.

For example, "sleep" symbol appears sort of like " g’ ". How am I supposed to find that?
There is another that appears like "W". But you can't imagine how many "W" bytes appear during the whole DQ3 ROM, even as part of the SNES machine code.
It's crazy to try to find that just by searching or looking randomly. It's a 6MB expanded ROM, that is: around 6 million characters.

So the only solution left would be through debugging, but in game debugging a single character printing that won't happen whenever you want in the battle is really difficult.
Honestly, I don't if I will ever be able to find and change this.
At least if these broken symbols didn't correspond with letters from the alphabet I could redraw them.

If anybody has a clue...

« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 02:02:59 pm by RodMerida »

Ether

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #232 on: June 28, 2021, 12:52:06 pm »
I've been lurking this topic since it was first posted, and I've held a lot of my feelings and thoughts about the topics being discussed to myself, because these thoughts are invariably intertwined with criticisms for specific projects and project creators. I did not feel comfortable, really, in voicing these criticisms, out of a respect for the work being done, and as a fellow lover of Dragon Quest. Chicken Knife and his cohorts have dropped all pretenses of decorum and I can no longer hold my tongue. As a student of French, English, Japanese, an ardent lover and defender of Dragon Quest, a supporter of fan translations and projects since before most of the people in this topic could probably read, and as a relatively personally and professionally accomplished writer believe me when I say it is a huge sin to slag off another writer so shamelessly, as Chicken Knife and nejimakipiyo have done in this topic. The 12 pages of this disastrous topic have been a roller coaster to read, from casual bigotry to earnest and heartfelt adulation and gratitude, a lot of different view points have been expressed. The one and only common trait shared by the posters in this topic is that just about everyone wants something from Rod Merida. People want him to remove his splashes, to start on new projects, to fix bugs in other Dragon Quest games, or consent to letting them use his hard-work as a base for their vanity projects. As someone who has been playing SNES fan translations since they were first published on the internet I cannot express how deep my gratitude is to Rod Merida for his Fix to Dragon Quest I+II. It is a tremendous gift to receive as a community that has had to suffer with a translation, pleasing to read though it may be, unfortunately fraught with many bugs. For myself and everyone else that has yet to experience DQI+II SFC I thank you from the bought of my heart. Now, on to my thoughts and criticism of the philosophy and general attitudes of Chicken Knife and nejimakipiyo.

Here's a small example of the magnanimity expressed by them in this topic, as they correspond with someone who has done something truly of value and requiring skill and time, the fixing of many previously unresearched bugs, in a very popular translation.
This is the last interaction I'll have with you, because you really are insufferable. I've thought it for a long time
Your fickle and egotistical behavior really is insufferable at times.
I'd normally be happy to explain, but our previous correspondence demonstrates how non-existent your interest is in understanding.

It's hard for me to put into word the lamentation I feel reading these things, but luckily I don't have to, a fellow writer has done that for me.

The spitefulness in this community continues to be lamentable, whether it be from content consumers who never produced anything, complaining about works that don't fit their preferences, or from content creators (who do very similar works in this case) complaining about and diminishing works that others do. It is baffling, and very unconducive to the continued vibrancy and productivity of this community.

Well said, moving on to my next point.

Since the concept and practice of fan translations were invented, the idea of retranslating, re-localizing, or the current in vogue misnomer: delocalizing, has existed alongside it. Usually these projects start with an editorial sensibility, aiming to fix various grammar or typographical mistakes. Not always, not invariably, but quite often these projects, well intentioned as they may be, become total failures from a narrative aesthetic sensibility, because of minor obsessions and an application of a wholly mistaken ideology. This ideology of "delocalizing" or making a translation that is "true" or "authentic" is completely false, and totally impossible to accomplish. Translation of idiosyncratic works of this level of sophistication and style requires, even if it is small, some localization. Contextual terms, idioms, words that have no translation, nonsense words, etc. all require localization, and we're just talking about the language at the most basic structural level. With languages so completely different in their roots and composition it is also invariable that you must localize less structural things as well, like sentence composition, as a narrative and aesthetic requirement. This is true for languages that are much closer to English, as well. It is impossible to unmarry the need to localize parts of your translation, and Chicken Knife and nejimakipiyo knows this for a fact, but choose to invoke the "authenticity" of their work as a shield from criticism. In fact they often weaponize this position to attack anyone leveling criticism at them. Even worse, they fallaciously invoke Horii-san to give the weight of authority to their localizations.

If you think having an accurate translation ruins a game, you are very much not the target audience of our work. And it's ok not to be! As Chicken Knife said, we don't expect everybody to like what we do. But there are people who appreciate translation accuracy and authenticity, and those people deserve to have good translations.

I managed to kick my nostalgia in the ass to create a flawless translation (with Chicken Knife's help, of course) and a brand new guide to go with it so that people who rely on guides to play would have an obstacle removed. If you still don't like it regardless of that, the problem isn't with our translation.

I love Horii-san's style of writing, but it is an impossibility to impart it's whole substance to an English translation, because that's just now how translation and localization work. There is no formation of words that you could ever make with English characters that would justify you using the creator of Dragon Quest in absentia as a papal authorization of your work, and it's bewildering and offensive. A clearer example of this relationship between translation and localizing for narrative aesthetic and flow is one of my favorite French and English works, The Count of Monte Cristo. Dumas is a romanticist, and his plots are wonderful to read in the native French. There have been numerous translations in English, with various levels of accuracy, but by far the best is Robin Buss translation. It's not as accurate structurally, or I should say it is not as devoted to structural accuracy, but there is a high cognizance of narrative aesthetic and the flow of language, of making something that is pleasing to read in an artistic sense. It is truly a joy to read in English, and superior in some ways. This is the height of the art, of localization. And I say art, because all who choose to do localization work, knowingly or not, become authors in their own right.

So, knowing these immutable facts, what conclusions can we draw about team Translation Quest? Their philosophy that their work is more accurate or pure and more authoritative is sourced in completely faulty logic. They will belittle anyone who disagrees even passively, and are also not afraid to play the victims. While their narrative and writing skills are a subjective matter, it is simple to deduce that they are objectively under-skilled when it comes to working with roms, and probably have little programming experience or skill. I know this because the entirety of their projects are edits of the English roms of existing localizations. I have no doubt that they are inundated with requests to bugfix/re-localize Dragon Quest I+II SFC and Dragon quest III SFC, and that they are unable to do so because they do not possess the skill set. It's actually quite humorous to watch Chicken Knife salivate over the possibility of getting permission to use Rod Merida's Fix for his team's vanity project. The only thing we have not established is if their localizations pass any rigorous artistic criticism. We know they certainly think they do:

Look--I don't consider the English script to be an objectively bad one. I've played through a hundred translations (fan & official) that are worse. I trust that you can tell the difference between an English script that is of a decent quality level versus one that isn't. And I also trust that your knowledge of grammar is probably better than a lot of native English speakers.

But language isn't just about rules--it's about feeling. The abstract connotations of words, the subtleties of expression and phrasing, all those things add nuance and color to writing in a way that is very difficult for all but the most immersed non-native speakers to completely catch hold of. Not to boast, but I think I have a particularly strong sense for those things, and there are a lot of scripts that would be considered "decent" quality that I have a very hard time enjoying because of those subtle kind of issues.

With the work I'm involved in, I play through the games with my finished scripts about 4 or 5 times, making extremely subtle changes to improve what I perceive to be the "naturalness" of the language. I agonize over this kind of revision process, while fully aware that 98% of the people who play with them will neither notice nor care about these subtle improvements. They would have been just as happy with an earlier rendition of the script that was "good enough" to the average person. Back when the RPGOne script came out, there were so many important Japanese games that had yet to be translated to English. Teams back then--perhaps rightfully--took a "good enough" approach to their work, lest they fall into the quagmire of perfectionism that causes one to spend years working on single projects.

Anyone that can pump out self-congratulatory purple prose of this density must be a capable writer, with a strong aesthetic sensibility. Let's see the results of these efforts.


Ah, so this is the result all the intense scrutiny, dedication to authenticity, and a completely transparent disdain and hatred for the work of other localizers (be they working at SE or amateurs such as yourselves). It almost feels like your entire purpose for localizing these games again was for the chance to flex your superiority in aesthetic sensibilities. If that was the case I cannot imagine a more tragic result. It's actually quite silly to see you pontificate at length about your zealous dedication to authenticity and accuracy considering the questionable liabilities you're willing to take. Hypocritical no? I've said a lot in this post but I think I can just let this one speak for itself. Nothing else could make my point about the dissonance and hypocritical nature of wielding the authority of a "true and pure translation" than this image. There are other things I could quibble about here but these are the lion's share of my feelings reading through this topic. As one writer to another I hope you can change your attitudes going further, if not your mistaken philosophy behind localization and translation at least let it be the way you conduct yourself publicly with other writers.

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #233 on: June 28, 2021, 06:35:19 pm »
I could not agree more with you in everything, Ether. Whatever I add to your words is few after this.

June 28, 2021, 06:42:15 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)


Ah, so this is the result all the intense scrutiny, dedication to authenticity, and a completely transparent disdain and hatred for the work of other localizers (be they working at SE or amateurs such as yourselves).
*Plas, plas, plas*!!
Such a gibberish (what in Spanish we call "un galimatías")!
And they complain about "gibberish" and "pruns" in the other translations.
I've not been able to understand even a single word there, let's not say to match each spell with its normal English or even Japanese counterparts.
This is not driving reversed!, this is doing a GTA directly!

I couldn't even clearly say what language is it supposed to be.
Sapmaju? Searami? Ampiruto? Flara? Frosto? Flyra! Mirromaju!!! (seems a creole, like in The Expanse ! "Listen to me, beltalowdas!")
Definitely not English!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 06:45:41 pm by RodMerida »

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #234 on: June 28, 2021, 07:17:23 pm »
@Ether

I'll speak for myself. But I've discussed the points with nejimakipiyo, and there is agreement between us.

In our aim to publicly defend our work, we have often demonstrated bad decorum. I was beginning to sense the hypocrisy after my last post as well. Another event that opened my eyes today was reading a public communication from Near/Byuu from the time when their DQ5 translation was released. They congratulated Dejap / Partial Translations for the release of their work, and there was a sweetness, humility and professionalism towards their fellow authors that struck my core. Knowing some of the backdrop to that affair made it all the more remarkable to read. Going back to the essence of the matter, we intend to hold a long memory of this painful lesson and demonstrate more humility. I was foolish to think that there is any benefit to be found in acting as our own champions, especially via derisive criticism of the work of other authors, and I apologize. I hope you all can believe how sincere I am, and I promise that we will strive to find more humble and diplomatic ways of explaining ourselves in the future.

That was the matter of significance to be said, but there are some smaller responses and questions.

Quote
This ideology of "delocalizing" or making a translation that is "true" or "authentic" is completely false, and totally impossible to accomplish.
I've long been aware (and publicly said) that there are small elements where liberties must be taken in the attempt at equivalency in our scripts. That means that the name Delocalized is more extreme than the reality, since we have done a bit of our own localization. I still like the name however, because of how small we try to keep those elements. In a general sense, the idea matches.

Quote
it is simple to deduce that they are objectively under-skilled when it comes to working with roms, and probably have little programming experience or skill
Nothing I haven't said many times. We have done some of this work, and I made great effort to learn enough ASM to do some things for DQ3, but we struggle with it. That doesn't mean we won't be learning more of it as time goes on. When an opportunity manifests to skip what we enjoy less and focus on what we enjoy more, yes, we jump a bit. Guilty as charged.

Quote
Anyone that can pump out self-congratulatory purple prose of this density must be a capable writer, with a strong aesthetic sensibility
Far too complimentary of you when we are supposed to be working on my humility.

Quote
I've said a lot in this post but I think I can just let this one speak for itself. Nothing else could make my point about the dissonance and hypocritical nature of wielding the authority of a "true and pure translation" than this image
While you seem to think the problems with these spell names are so obvious that they require no explanation, they are unfortunately lost on me. I'd be happy to hear what is terrible about them. The main objections I've gotten are that familiarity with the existing systems makes a new one dysfunctional, and that we have broken some kind of unwritten rule in doing this. I'm really open to hearing if the former issue is experienced by people who actually play through our translations. And I honestly don't understand the thinking behind the latter. If you are suggesting that they look idiotic, I haven't heard that before. Rod is now saying that their language is not in English. This was intended as a matter of equivalency with the Japanese names. If you haven't read the note about them in our readme files explaining the methodology, it might provide some helpful context.

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As one writer to another I hope you can change your attitudes going further, if not your mistaken philosophy behind localization and translation at least let it be the way you conduct yourself publicly with other writers.
I'll accept this as sincere, and I appreciate it. You were harsh with me, but I deserved a harsh rebuke. I hope you see a difference in our future communications. I'm less sold on your issues with our translation philosophy, but if you would like to discuss it further, a PM, or responding here: http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=26951.0 might be best, as to let this thread get back to Rod's hacking work.

@Rod

I wanted to offer a direct apology for my disrespectful behavior. I'm not saying this because I want anything from you, but because I think you deserve it. While there may have been things that upset me in the course of our interactions, I could have responded in a way that properly demonstrates the behavior I wish to see in this community.



« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 11:57:40 pm by Chicken Knife »

tc

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #235 on: June 28, 2021, 07:47:54 pm »
I've been lurking this topic since it was first posted, and I've held a lot of my feelings and thoughts about the topics being discussed to myself, because these thoughts are invariably intertwined with criticisms for specific projects and project creators. I did not feel comfortable, really, in voicing these criticisms, out of a respect for the work being done, and as a fellow lover of Dragon Quest. Chicken Knife and his cohorts have dropped all pretenses of decorum and I can no longer hold my tongue. As a student of French, English, Japanese, an ardent lover and defender of Dragon Quest, a supporter of fan translations and projects since before most of the people in this topic could probably read, and as a relatively personally and professionally accomplished writer believe me when I say it is a huge sin to slag off another writer so shamelessly, as Chicken Knife and nejimakipiyo have done in this topic. The 12 pages of this disastrous topic have been a roller coaster to read, from casual bigotry to earnest and heartfelt adulation and gratitude, a lot of different view points have been expressed. The one and only common trait shared by the posters in this topic is that just about everyone wants something from Rod Merida. People want him to remove his splashes, to start on new projects, to fix bugs in other Dragon Quest games, or consent to letting them use his hard-work as a base for their vanity projects. As someone who has been playing SNES fan translations since they were first published on the internet I cannot express how deep my gratitude is to Rod Merida for his Fix to Dragon Quest I+II. It is a tremendous gift to receive as a community that has had to suffer with a translation, pleasing to read though it may be, unfortunately fraught with many bugs. For myself and everyone else that has yet to experience DQI+II SFC I thank you from the bought of my heart. Now, on to my thoughts and criticism of the philosophy and general attitudes of Chicken Knife and nejimakipiyo.

Here's a small example of the magnanimity expressed by them in this topic, as they correspond with someone who has done something truly of value and requiring skill and time, the fixing of many previously unresearched bugs, in a very popular translation.
It's hard for me to put into word the lamentation I feel reading these things, but luckily I don't have to, a fellow writer has done that for me.

Well said, moving on to my next point.

Since the concept and practice of fan translations were invented, the idea of retranslating, re-localizing, or the current in vogue misnomer: delocalizing, has existed alongside it. Usually these projects start with an editorial sensibility, aiming to fix various grammar or typographical mistakes. Not always, not invariably, but quite often these projects, well intentioned as they may be, become total failures from a narrative aesthetic sensibility, because of minor obsessions and an application of a wholly mistaken ideology. This ideology of "delocalizing" or making a translation that is "true" or "authentic" is completely false, and totally impossible to accomplish. Translation of idiosyncratic works of this level of sophistication and style requires, even if it is small, some localization. Contextual terms, idioms, words that have no translation, nonsense words, etc. all require localization, and we're just talking about the language at the most basic structural level. With languages so completely different in their roots and composition it is also invariable that you must localize less structural things as well, like sentence composition, as a narrative and aesthetic requirement. This is true for languages that are much closer to English, as well. It is impossible to unmarry the need to localize parts of your translation, and Chicken Knife and nejimakipiyo knows this for a fact, but choose to invoke the "authenticity" of their work as a shield from criticism. In fact they often weaponize this position to attack anyone leveling criticism at them. Even worse, they fallaciously invoke Horii-san to give the weight of authority to their localizations.

I love Horii-san's style of writing, but it is an impossibility to impart it's whole substance to an English translation, because that's just now how translation and localization work. There is no formation of words that you could ever make with English characters that would justify you using the creator of Dragon Quest in absentia as a papal authorization of your work, and it's bewildering and offensive. A clearer example of this relationship between translation and localizing for narrative aesthetic and flow is one of my favorite French and English works, The Count of Monte Cristo. Dumas is a romanticist, and his plots are wonderful to read in the native French. There have been numerous translations in English, with various levels of accuracy, but by far the best is Robin Buss translation. It's not as accurate structurally, or I should say it is not as devoted to structural accuracy, but there is a high cognizance of narrative aesthetic and the flow of language, of making something that is pleasing to read in an artistic sense. It is truly a joy to read in English, and superior in some ways. This is the height of the art, of localization. And I say art, because all who choose to do localization work, knowingly or not, become authors in their own right.

So, knowing these immutable facts, what conclusions can we draw about team Translation Quest? Their philosophy that their work is more accurate or pure and more authoritative is sourced in completely faulty logic. They will belittle anyone who disagrees even passively, and are also not afraid to play the victims. While their narrative and writing skills are a subjective matter, it is simple to deduce that they are objectively under-skilled when it comes to working with roms, and probably have little programming experience or skill. I know this because the entirety of their projects are edits of the English roms of existing localizations. I have no doubt that they are inundated with requests to bugfix/re-localize Dragon Quest I+II SFC and Dragon quest III SFC, and that they are unable to do so because they do not possess the skill set. It's actually quite humorous to watch Chicken Knife salivate over the possibility of getting permission to use Rod Merida's Fix for his team's vanity project. The only thing we have not established is if their localizations pass any rigorous artistic criticism. We know they certainly think they do:

Anyone that can pump out self-congratulatory purple prose of this density must be a capable writer, with a strong aesthetic sensibility. Let's see the results of these efforts.


Ah, so this is the result all the intense scrutiny, dedication to authenticity, and a completely transparent disdain and hatred for the work of other localizers (be they working at SE or amateurs such as yourselves). It almost feels like your entire purpose for localizing these games again was for the chance to flex your superiority in aesthetic sensibilities. If that was the case I cannot imagine a more tragic result. It's actually quite silly to see you pontificate at length about your zealous dedication to authenticity and accuracy considering the questionable liabilities you're willing to take. Hypocritical no? I've said a lot in this post but I think I can just let this one speak for itself. Nothing else could make my point about the dissonance and hypocritical nature of wielding the authority of a "true and pure translation" than this image. There are other things I could quibble about here but these are the lion's share of my feelings reading through this topic. As one writer to another I hope you can change your attitudes going further, if not your mistaken philosophy behind localization and translation at least let it be the way you conduct yourself publicly with other writers.

I'm going to respectfully agree to disagree. In this instance, Horii-san's work is authoritative. It is the source material in regards to the thematic and wordplay choices of DQI&II.

Bobza

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #236 on: July 01, 2021, 06:25:48 pm »
I've noticed a slight issue with the 1.05rtm patch.  When trying to sell an important item in DQ I, the shopkeeper says:

"Hmmm... I'm sorry.
I can't take that.
It looks far to important.
You should hold onto it."

("to" should be "too")

I am enjoying this patch so far.  I'll reply if I notice anything else.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2021, 07:10:04 pm by Bobza »

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #237 on: July 03, 2021, 06:48:59 am »
Quote from: Bobza
"It looks far to important."

("to" should be "too")
I'm going to fix it right now.

Quote from: Bobza
I am enjoying this patch so far.
I'm glad to hear so. It's good to know my effort wasn't in vain.

July 03, 2021, 11:52:39 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Fixed, and sent to the submitting queue.
It can be obtained from here, meanwhile: http://crackowia.gq/dqust1n2.html
« Last Edit: July 03, 2021, 11:53:26 am by RodMerida »

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #238 on: July 05, 2021, 08:36:42 pm »
Hello, long time lurker first time poster here.

Hey RodMerida, I just finished the finished the first game, good work by your team, Lilpuddy31 and Dudejo to finally get this game the respect it's deserves. It's almost perfect except for one instance I noticed after defeating the final boss of DQ1. The dialog calls him "DragonLord", instead of "King Dragon". It seems weird for a patch that uses the Japanese naming that suddenly it would use the old crap English names. Other than that, DQ1 is perfect. Was using the latest 1051rtm patch

lilpuddy31

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #239 on: July 05, 2021, 09:01:40 pm »
Hello, long time lurker first time poster here.

Hey RodMerida, I just finished the finished the first game, good work by your team, Lilpuddy31 and Dudejo to finally get this game the respect it's deserves. It's almost perfect except for one instance I noticed after defeating the final boss of DQ1. The dialog calls him "DragonLord", instead of "King Dragon". It seems weird for a patch that uses the Japanese naming that suddenly it would use the old crap English names. Other than that, DQ1 is perfect. Was using the latest 1051rtm patch

Don't even get me started on this, he is aware