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Author Topic: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida  (Read 36328 times)

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #160 on: June 24, 2021, 04:09:42 pm »
I agree completely with what you're saying here and with the examples that you've listed above. Is there a point to re-translating a game that already has a completed translation? The answer is sometimes, but usually no. Now let's consider these following examples of when such an effort might be merited or not:

Breath of Fire II for example had an awful and at times, hard to understand official translation released back in the 90s. Ryusui's re-translation effort was indeed much needed and was also greatly appreciated by many fans of this game and series in general. Having played through both versions myself, I can say without a doubt that this one is by far the better of the two. Not only has the script been greatly improved upon, but it also adds some nice new menu graphics, intro music and the ability to run.

On the other hand, the numerous re-translations that exist for games such as Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI do seem like a massive waste of time. Ted Woolsey's translations are very accurate for the most part and very professionally written. The only people who complain about them are nitpickers who do not represent the opinions of most JRPG fans. I can link to many different message boards from other sites where people complain constantly about why there's no current translation for a game when another already has multiple different translations of it by different people. A lot of them are especially annoyed to see news posts of a game getting re-translated again instead of a new one being worked on.

The same can be said with the fan translation community as well. In this example, Dejap released an amazing translation for Bahamut Lagoon back in the early 2000s that was beloved by many people. Then a re-translation of it was released recently this year that claims to "be better because it uses modern romhacking tools" or whatever. I've played both versions and still prefer the original Dejap version. Now, I'm not saying this as an absolute statement, as it is a matter of personal taste and opinion. What I am trying to say however, is that it seems like a bit of a waste of time to re-translate a game that already has a good translation which exists instead of tackling another game that doesn't even have one to begin with.

Even if a new translation is "slightly better" than the previous existing one, is it really worth the effort? I of course and can't tell others what to do in their spare time, but is it truly not more of a productive use of one's time and effort to focus on translating a new game rather than one that has already been completed years ago? Well anyway, I've got my own translation projects to focus working on behalf of Dynamic-Designs, so I'll be off now.
Thanks for chiming in, Recca.

I have no illusions that the work someone like me does brings even a fraction of the value to the gaming community that the work of someone like you does. You guys who work tirelessly to make games available in new languages are the real heroes as far as I'm concerned. There is no competition.

With use of free time, if we make a line diagram where your kind of activity is on the far extreme end of benevolent use, then you would have simply playing games for personal enjoyment as the least benevolent use of time. What my group is doing would fall somewhere in the middle. We work on precisely what we are most passionate about, to make versions that we feel are better, even if the official releases are not objectively terrible (to the extent of Breath of Fire II). We benefit from the satisfaction of doing that, and some others who share our passion and philosophy for the material benefit as well, but the scope of the value created is nothing like what you all bring to the table.

So, I tip my hat to you, and I'll accept your judgment as valid, but I'd still say that providing some value is better than just consuming and providing no value.

I'll also say that we are open to working on untranslated games in the future. Our group isn't great on the technical end, so we tend to prioritize projects that are technically easier (one of the main reasons why we are now piggy backing on Rod's work on DQI&II). If we were involved with a more skilled hacker and could concentrate our efforts more on the writing end, we would be more open to doing fresh translations. At the same time, we would want to believe in the game we are translating. It would also have to be a game of some kind of quality / artistry / historic value. We don't want to feel like stooges doing unpaid labor that we despise.

Btw, Ryusui's BOF2 translation was the thing that made me dream of getting into this. What an absolute work of art.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 04:21:15 pm by Chicken Knife »

Red Soul

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #161 on: June 24, 2021, 05:13:35 pm »
On the other hand, the numerous re-translations that exist for games such as Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI do seem like a massive waste of time. Ted Woolsey's translations are very accurate for the most part and very professionally written. The only people who complain about them are nitpickers who do not represent the opinions of most JRPG fans. I can link to many different message boards from other sites where people complain constantly about why there's no current translation for a game when another already has multiple different translations of it by different people. A lot of them are especially annoyed to see news posts of a game getting re-translated again instead of a new one being worked on.
Nitpickers are also fans, you know, haha.

Speaking of Chrono Trigger specifically, it made the experience better to me personally. I don't like how inconsistent some things were with the original script (more than anything the "olde english" speech by Frog, when everyone else speaks normally in that era, it made no sense to me and bothered me, even though that's the one aspect of the official translation I liked). This is being addressed by Chrono Trigger Plus it seems, which is great. My dream CT game would incorporate CT+ with the retranslation, even though I know it is impossible.  Also, the whole rock band references don't resonate with me; maybe most were okay with that but I wasn't. 

Maybe nitpickers like accurate scripts, if so, I'm one of them, and while the retranslation might not have superseded the original in terms of consumption, it is still just as justified as the original to exist, in my opinion. Someone went there and did it out of their own accord, that's why it's a hobby and not a paid job.

I don't disagree that still untranslated games should be targeted first, but can anyone really dictate what someone else wishes to do with their time and expertise?

Like I said, I'm not disagreeing with you, but to be part of this hobby you need passion, and there can be no passion if there is no willingness, and willigness disappears as soon as it becomes a chore. Then one just wants to push the project out of the door, and often things become half-hearted and haphazard.

FCandChill

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #162 on: June 24, 2021, 05:46:09 pm »
Intro removal patch for version v1.04:

Code: [Select]
PATCH REMOVED
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 10:13:16 am by FCandChill »

JKPhage

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #163 on: June 24, 2021, 06:55:55 pm »
If we were involved with a more skilled hacker and could concentrate our efforts more on the writing end, we would be more open to doing fresh translations. At the same time, we would want to believe in the game we are translating. It would also have to be a game of some kind of quality / artistry / historic value. We don't want to feel like stooges doing unpaid labor that we despise.

To be fair, unless it's an absolute shovelware title, any game that never made it out of Japan (or it's respective country of origin) can arguably be said to have historic value, and all games have at least some level of artistry. Some much more than others, given, but still some none the less. The issue there becomes that we're slowly but surely chipping away at the backlog of SNES/Genesis-MD games and older that haven't been translated. While I know there are more, trying to think of games of that era that still need translation brings up Surging Aura and the Go Go Ackman games and... nothing else to wit. I know there are probably a good handful, but if we're set on translating *every* game of that era, then you're gonna start getting into games that aren't that great or really don't need much work, because it'll all be menus and opening/ending text crawls.

We're starting to hit a point where PS1/Saturn and later titles are looking like the gold mine of untranslated titles that could bring something new and valuable to people. Just off the top of my head I know I'd love to play Velldeselba Senki, Salzburg no Majo, The Holy Dragoons and a couple other PS1 JRPGs, and a quick search of one of my go-to sites for Japanese PS1 games turned up five more on the first page that I had never heard of and think would be awesome to play. The problem is, things jump significantly in complexity once you delve into that era, and the hacking/technical skill required to pull the project off becomes a much higher bar, not to mention the much larger games with way more text, myriad alternate routes and even FMVs that were rampant in the day that would require subtitles being added, which means you have to have someone skilled at video editing and encoding as well.

I'm all for more games getting translated, period. The more that are accessible the better, but we're gonna hit a point sooner than later where all the games of significant merit or story on older platforms are taken care of, and wanting to translate a new game is going to require a step up into the next generation. If you're really looking to work on a project that has a lot of value and deliver something new, you might want to start poking around at people who potentially have the skill to crack PS1 stuff, or start putting feelers out in communities dedicated to game hacking/translation for people who are skilled and/or interested so you can comb through available titles and take your pick from the absolute treasure trove of titles that are there.

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #164 on: June 24, 2021, 07:28:39 pm »
Intro removal patch for version v1.04:

There are no changes in the intro system since 1.03c version. Wouldn't that be unnecessary?

« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 10:29:47 am by RodMerida »

FCandChill

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #165 on: June 24, 2021, 07:52:08 pm »
That's completely unnecessary and could break something.
There are no changes in the intro system since 1.03c version.

Ah, okay. I received a message that the second to last intro removal patch didn't work with the latest version. I guess I should've verified. Thanks for the heads up.

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #166 on: June 24, 2021, 07:57:30 pm »
Where are you jumping, by the way? It's late and can't check the computer.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 10:29:01 am by RodMerida »

FCandChill

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #167 on: June 24, 2021, 08:00:34 pm »
Post removed.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 10:42:16 am by FCandChill »

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #168 on: June 24, 2021, 08:17:43 pm »
The best option is to leave the patch as it is. Lol.

FCandChill

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #169 on: June 24, 2021, 08:23:41 pm »
I prefer the splash screen. I get messages from people to have a patch to remove the splash screen. I do it to help people out. I also remove it under the impression you are okay with it. As said before by you...

No problem if people individually remove the splash screen if it pisses them off. But in the general public release it's convenient to put it. I already showed my reasons for that in another thread. But I'm working in changing it by a static one in the next update (that will be ready in this night).

That being said, I appeciate all of your hard work that goes into the patch and into each update. You don't have to release constant updates to fix bugs in your patch but you do. Not every rom hack does this, which makes this project special.

Piotyr

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #170 on: June 24, 2021, 10:45:30 pm »
On the other hand, the numerous re-translations that exist for games such as Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI do seem like a massive waste of time. Ted Woolsey's translations are very accurate for the most part and very professionally written. The only people who complain about them are nitpickers who do not represent the opinions of most JRPG fans. I can link to many different message boards from other sites where people complain constantly about why there's no current translation for a game when another already has multiple different translations of it by different people. A lot of them are especially annoyed to see news posts of a game getting re-translated again instead of a new one being worked on.
As far as Woolsey's translations being accurate I did not know that Japan pours soda on graves as a sign of respect, never serves alchol so all pubs are cafés and had to shrink their scripts due to space limitations. I must be nitpicky to like having updated translations without nostalgia or technical limitations getting in the way.

Red Soul

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #171 on: June 24, 2021, 10:52:09 pm »
That's completely unnecessary and could break something.
There are no changes in the intro system since 1.03c version.

I really like the static splash screen, Rod, by the way.

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #172 on: June 25, 2021, 03:14:58 am »
What's a better method of exiting out of this function early?
I think you did it well with 1.03c.
Putting the first line of the Japanese ROM and reverting a couple of jumps to their original form.

But if you do what you put yesterday you're altering the code of the splash routine and if someday someone regreats and wants to go back he will find a non-functional routine.

There is much information in those splashes that even makes reference to the translator, RPGOne team, for bibliographic purposes. People may want to consult them. And they're easily skippable.


Quote from: FCandChill
I also remove it under the impression you are okay with it. As said before by you...
I have no problem people individually remove it. But this is becoming a constant disemboweling of whatever minor update I release, even when I make no change at the splash routine at all!, by altering the internal logic of the routine in an arbitrary way.
And sometimes even with mistakes, in a way that now we don't know if those people that say it doesn't work anymore it's because they copied your last patch or the previous one that jumped to 70A9 position in RAM!, probably not declaring any stack, variable or whatever!, what you yourself said broke the saving game system.




June 25, 2021, 07:13:14 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
So after all this I have been meditating and no, I don't agree anymore all this is done to my patch.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 10:11:17 am by RodMerida »

FCandChill

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #173 on: June 25, 2021, 09:35:50 am »
I have no problem people individually remove it. But this is becoming a constant disemboweling of whatever minor update I release, even when I make no change at the splash routine at all!, by altering the internal logic of the routine in an arbitrary way.
And sometimes even with mistakes, in a way that now we don't know if those people that say it doesn't work anymore it's because they copied your last patch or the previous one that jumped to 70A9 position in RAM!, probably not declaring any stack, variable or whatever!, what you yourself said broke the saving game system.

1) The two patches before this one weren't mine, so I technically didn't break the saving feature.
2) I made the last patch out of a misunderstanding in a DM. Apparently, the person was too lazy to patch the latest version, so I apologize for releasing a new patch when there didn't need to be. It won't happen again.
3) People who make these patches aren't going to have in-depth knowledge about this game as you do. You haven't released any source code related to this project or an official means to remove the intro. People who modify this patch to make more translations won't have the source code either. So, most changes in your eyes will be arbitrary and could break things. You also say certain changes could break things, but you haven't provided any concrete examples unless they were provided to you.
4) I can remove all these patches out of respect, but I think it's too little too late. These patchese are already in replies to messages. They've also been shared online too. Basically what I'm saying is, once it's on the internet, it never goes away. Again, I can remove the patches from my forum posts out of respect.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 09:43:27 am by FCandChill »

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #174 on: June 25, 2021, 10:06:16 am »
I don't care the individual people that may have them privately. I just don't want a constant spectacle be made of my constantly updating patch.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 10:26:53 am by RodMerida »

FCandChill

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #175 on: June 25, 2021, 10:20:07 am »
So if you are so kind to erase the two last ones it's enough for me.

Alright, done. :thumbsup:

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #176 on: June 25, 2021, 10:25:07 am »
Thank you.

FCandChill

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #177 on: June 25, 2021, 10:27:55 am »
No problem. If you have any other posts you want me to remove, let me know.

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #178 on: June 25, 2021, 10:49:23 am »
No. It's only that. At any moment I may update, the old patches will remain outdated, and also I would prefere to avoid a massive duplicity of versions of this addendum out there, that at the end you don't know which is which and who has made what (if it's the 2.0 version of RPGOne with bugs, if it's a previous version of RPGOne, if it doesn't have bugs, or what).

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #179 on: June 25, 2021, 10:55:57 am »
I don’t necessarily think the advent of endless vanity Spanish rewrites is a realistic one. Spanish is not English, and Dragon Quest I&II is not FF6.

But I do think Rod has done right by nearly everyone with the tasteful, aesthetically fitting, non-vertigo inducing splash screen, and continuous public posts with code to break it only serves to rub salt in wounds when he has made his feelings and expectations so clear.