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Author Topic: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida  (Read 26335 times)

nejimakipiyo

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #140 on: June 23, 2021, 08:34:28 am »
But we are rapidly accumulating a laundry list of what we perceive to be issues.

Here's what I have, so far. I just started playing about an hour ago, and I'm still in Radatome Castle because almost every NPC has flawed text. Here are some of the more egregious errors I've picked out.

King, in the opening scene
"Long ago, the legendary warrior Roto was given the Light Orb by the gods..."

Translation error - Chicken Knife has already been discussing Gods, but I jotted down the main points in my list. God is singular in Dragon Quest. The Japanese word, "kami", can be taken as singular or plural depending on context, and the context in this game is definitively singular. The cross symbolism around priests in the world of DQ is the biggest hint that they follow a monotheistic religion analagous to Christianity. Horii & his team could easily have used the definitive plural form, "kamigami", as in the subtitle of Dragon Quest II, had they wanted to refer to gods in the plural.


"With its powers, he defeated the demons that had covered this world."

Translation error - I object to the word "demon" here. The Japanese uses "mamono", the standard word for monsters. Mamono refers to every basic Slime, Dracky, and Ghost, as well as the more powerful creatures you can face.

NPC near throne
"Princess Laura is the only beloved daughter of the king."

Phrasing issue - This makes it sound as if the king has multiple daughters, and only loves one of them. The correct phrasing here would be "Princess Laura is the king's beloved daughter."

"So when the Queen passed away, Princess Laura helped support the king's broken heart..."

Translation/phrasing issue: 王様の心の支えになっておられた means "became emotional support for the king". It seems like the translators here didn't have much of a grasp of Japanese grammar and translated it too literally in a way that doesn't sound natural in English.

"Then, half a year ago, the Princess was kidnapped by demons!"

Translation error - Again, should be monsters. If I brought this up every time, I'd be beating a dead horse. But this is a recurring error with at least 4 instances in Radatome Castle alone, and I would imagine many more throughout the game.

Guards downstairs
"A record of your journey can be written in the Imperial Scrolls of Honor."
"The king will record your journey for you in the Imperial Scrolls of Honor."

Translation issue - Imperial Scrolls of Honor isn't an accurate translation. Rather, it's an artifact left over from the original NES translation that turned everything super medieval. Adventure log, or adventure journal, is a better-sounding, and more accurate translation.

Merchant in castle
"Because of this, I've collected mortifying and sorrowful memories of those times."

There are two issues here.

Translation error 1 - Mortifying is absolutely the wrong word choice here. It is a possible way to translate the Japanese word, kuyashikute, but it does not fit the context whatsoever. In English, mortifying means to feel an intense sense of embarrassment. Why would the merchant be embarrassed?

Translation error 2 - No native English speaker would say "I've collected [...] memories." This shows a lack of understanding the Japanese verb tamaru. In this line, it appears in a negative form: たまりません tamarimasen. The merchant is saying he doesn't or can't tamaru. Well, what's tamaru? Sure, it can mean 'collect' - in which case, he would be saying he can't collect frustration and sorrow. Huh? But tamaru can also mean to bear, to endure. It makes a lot more sense with that interpretation. I would render this phrase:
"When I think back to that time, I can't bear my frustration and sorrow."


I'll keep going, but so far from just talking to a few NPCs in the castle, I've gotten the impression that the translators didn't really have a grasp on either Japanese or English grammar, and were a little too stuck in the original (also flawed) translation. To make it absolutely clear: I would never be able to play this translation for fun, and I think readers deserve a much more polished text as an option.

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #141 on: June 23, 2021, 09:54:38 am »
There's even a DQ3 line in Alefgard that goes: "God is light, and the Archfiend is darkness." Clearly singular to singular.
Not the same. The Archfiend is a demon, not a god. It's the greatest demon, or the boss of demons, same concept than Satanas or "The Devil" in Christianity.

DQ3 is clearly a monotheistic game (DQ's religion had evolved, like in Bible).


Did you have people condemning you for replacing an existing Spanish translation?
If I redid them with games that are well translated of course, they'd criticise me. I would even feel shame.
But DQ1+2's one was very poor in vocabulary (and had far more game breaking bugs that RPGOne's, untranslated sentences in English, orthograph or dotting mistakes, many dialogs were shortened with very simple words, were not faithful or were not well translated, etc.).
Chrono Trigger's one is not faithful at all, and even reprograms/changes the battle rules or statistics behaviour making you gain abilities 3 or 4 times quicker than in the vanilla game. It over abuses of Spanish slangs. It over abuses of plural even when you are only one person in the party. It changes the names of some characters or enemies to something that has nothing to do to be funny, like Johnny to Patxi (because of a famous Spanish motorbike racer called Patxi López), Nagaette (or Naga in the Japanese version) to Jaca Paca (that means "Franky the female mule" or "donkey"), and many other things. Also he doesn't translate the different styles of speech, like Robots'.

With the FF6 translation made by him the same. It's too free and changes the battle rules by changing the assembly routines to what he likes and also applying a kilo of patches.

I think it's not the same than what we're talking about of RPGOne. RPGone's work is very faithful and of quality, it doesn't deliberately reprogram the game behaviour, thus changing the experience. It doesn't change the battle rules. And the few unintentional glitches can be "easily" fixed without redoing his job.

This kind of translation is comparable in Spanish to the one of Shin Megami Tensei 2, that is very professional, or to the one of Treasure of the Rudras. I'd feel much shame if I self-convinced with some little excuses to redo all that.

No. Everything is not redoable.
Don't do others what you don't like to be done.


June 23, 2021, 10:06:52 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Translation error

Nejimakipiyo, can I see the whole Japanese text of each conflictive sentence?


In English, mortifying means to feel an intense sense of embarrassment. Why would the merchant be embarrassed?
https://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=mortificante

Second meaning:
(Formal) To be mortified, to be conscious-stricken = to feel remorse, to feel torment yourself.

English language has much Latin influence, and many words borrowed from Latin, due partially to centuries of Norman domination, and partially to the influence of pan-European Christian culture, that during centuries used Latin as an international literary or educated, written language.

So English language accepts in formal style many acceptions that are not common in colloquial language. Like "to be mortified" in its original Latin sense (feeling like dying, from mors, mortis = death).

This is called "literary word". In this case: a literary semantic use of a word.
This shows from RPGOne / spspiff a very strong vocabulary basis in his own language, that I appreciate.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 10:23:39 am by RodMerida »

nejimakipiyo

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #142 on: June 23, 2021, 10:26:11 am »
King's text




Chancellor's text




Merchant's text



~

As I said earlier in private conversation to Chicken Knife and another friend, as much as I dislike the official translations of Dragon Quest games I do think they are professionally written and grammatically sound.  This fan translation, however, falls far short of both of those goalposts. I would like for some more native English speakers to weigh in on the matter before I continue gathering data. From our standpoint, none of this dialogue sounds natural or professional whatsoever, but I don't want to waste my time nitpicking this gibberish if you can't see how bad these errors really are.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #143 on: June 23, 2021, 10:27:29 am »
Not the same. The Archfiend is a demon, not a god. It's the greatest demon, or the boss of demons, same concept than Satanas or "The Devil" in Christianity.

DQ3 is clearly a monotheistic game (DQ's religion had evolved, like in Bible).
So you acknowledge the monotheism of DQ3, I don't think you have any support to challenge the monotheism of DQ1, but you insist that there is a plurality of benevolent gods in DQ2... because of why again? I still haven't heard a strong argument. There is a pantheon of evil gods, yes. The subtitle alone says as much, with *specifically* plural language. Why again would Horii not be specific if he wanted the player to understand benevolent gods in the plural?

This kind of translation is comparable in Spanish to the one of Shin Megami Tensei 2, that is very professional, or to the one of Treasure of the Rudras. I'd feel much shame if I self-convinced with some little excuses to redo all that.

No. Everything is not redoable.
Don't do others what you don't like to be done.
I for one would have no problem with one of our translations being done again. Ego isn't my driver, and I consider each translation to have unique value (and problems). Since you enjoy discussing the bible, we could probably go on a lengthy discourse on the pros and cons of various bible translation, but let's not digress. Do people scream bloody murder in the world of literature when someone sets out to do a new translation of a classic work? I think not. (well, with the bible yes, but that's religion for you  :laugh:) Each translation has their own unique authorial fingerprint and relative quality. They are discussed to the extent that they have popular appeal or academic value. Some may say that the original translations are better, but who is being shamed for doing a new translation? This concept continues to strike me as absurd. It's amazing how much criticism is delivered in the ROM hacking community from both within and outside toward people who devote themselves to free labor that brings community value.

You were at the receiving end of this with the level of criticism toward your title screen. Whether I liked or disliked it, I wasn't judging you for including it in your work. I only said that it didn't fit in ours, which you seemed to be trying to impose initially, and I argued against that. I happen to think your new one is extremely tasteful and fitting with a Dragon Quest game (who can argue with original art), but I still supported your original, even though many felt you should be ashamed for their perception of bad taste.

Will we ever settle our philosophical debates here? We are probably both stubborn and long winded enough to go on for ages about this. I'm going to try to let nejimakipiyo do more of the talking, but I warn you: they are far less patient than I am. :laugh:
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 12:22:43 pm by Chicken Knife »

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #144 on: June 23, 2021, 10:39:28 am »
they are far less patient than I am.
"They"? You are pluralizing him! Lol. Like in "Elohim", or in DQ2!

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #145 on: June 23, 2021, 12:03:37 pm »
"They"? You are pluralizing him! Lol. Like in "Elohim", or in DQ2!
Let's not make assumptions. I prefer that we keep the discussion around the issues we noted, and we would appreciate having others weigh in.

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #146 on: June 23, 2021, 12:34:50 pm »
Chicken Knife:
You can't compare something written millenia before Christ, and during centuries, like the Bible, that is besides the core script of the main religion of the Roman Empire and later of Europe since more or less 4th to 6th centuries, with a game from the late 80's or early 90's.
But even if you do, during all the Middle Ages until Renaissance with the downfall of Constantinople (that is, during centuries) there was only one official translation of the Bible for the Catholic Church: the Vulgata, in Latin, made by Saint Jerome. But after centuries of endless handscript manual copying the mistakes and alterations (due to human mistakes mostly) were so many in the different copies that it was virtually impossible to know how the original was: what made necessary a new Latin retranslation from the Greek translation of the 70 ones (that is the official, nowadays, for the Catholic Church).

If with something like Bible, that has counted with so many translations through history, there was one only translation commonly in use in Western Europe during the whole Middle Ages, why should it be different in only 20 years since DQ1+2 was first translated to English, in 2002?

Anyway I think both things are not comparable. If you want to compare an RPG with something in literature it should be with a theatre work, since an RPG is a dialogistic genre into video-games.
Or at least, compare it with something from the 20th century, like The Lord of the Rings (or The Hobbit):

Do you know how many translations there exist of The Lord of the Rings to Spanish, in the world?
One.
Same with The Hobbit.

Do you know why? Because it's not necessary more. And because it's of very good quality too. It's faithful, and everybody understands it perfectly, so redoing a so damn long work seems useless.

That's my point.


P.S.: I'd like to hear other opinions from people too.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 12:44:18 pm by RodMerida »

Goznog

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #147 on: June 23, 2021, 12:48:48 pm »
multiple translations of a single media is a common practice across books, film subtitles, and so on, yet gamers seem to have the most resistance to the concept.
actually, I get the feeling that most gamers care less about translation and more about having "a game with English text in it".
why can't different translations of something exist? I'm sure if DQ Delocalised released their own hacks of the remakes, there'd still be a bunch of people playing the older hacks simply because of how long they've been around. meanwhile, gamers who are more concerned about translation will take the time to research and evaluate the newer hacks.

also: if the translated scripts of these old hacks is held as sacrosanct, then shouldn't the underlying hacking and code be too?
I think fixing the hack's bugs and adding extra features like intro screens can be considered just as "disrespectful" to the work as changing the script would be.

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #148 on: June 23, 2021, 01:42:47 pm »
if the translated scripts of these old hacks is held as sacrosanct, then shouldn't the underlying hacking and code be too?
I think fixing the hack's bugs and adding extra features like intro screens can be considered just as "disrespectful"
The difference is you are not altering anything from the original English text because it's a quality reliable work (except unintentional typos), and people don't loose their advance because they've found an unexpected bug that freezes the game, and they can complete it.

I think the difference is obvious.
And a splash screen is necessary to difference the bugfixed version from the original row one with those bugs that already had its own splash screen (that the new version still conserves as optional, by the way, so where is the disrespect), so people may difference it easily, don't confuse, and know they're actually playing a bugfix.

Otherwise imagine the mess.
If the Japanese version has no splash screen and the RPGOne's bugged version has it, and you remove your splash screen, how do they know they're playing the RPGOne version, but bugfixed? Most of people don't research so much, they just push start and play.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 01:52:26 pm by RodMerida »

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #149 on: June 23, 2021, 03:03:17 pm »
Chicken Knife:
You can't compare something written millenia before Christ, and during centuries, like the Bible, that is besides the core script of the main religion of the Roman Empire and later of Europe since more or less 4th to 6th centuries, with a game from the late 80's or early 90's.
But even if you do, during all the Middle Ages until Renaissance with the downfall of Constantinople (that is, during centuries) there was only one official translation of the Bible for the Catholic Church: the Vulgata, in Latin, made by Saint Jerome. But after centuries of endless handscript manual copying the mistakes and alterations (due to human mistakes mostly) were so many in the different copies that it was virtually impossible to know how the original was: what made necessary a new Latin retranslation from the Greek translation of the 70 ones (that is the official, nowadays, for the Catholic Church).

If with something like Bible, that has counted with so many translations through history, there was one only translation commonly in use in Western Europe during the whole Middle Ages, why should it be different in only 20 years since DQ1+2 was first translated to English, in 2002?
Do you think individuals were actually empowered to create translations in the middle ages in the way that people are now? There's probably a ton of fascinating reasons why translations were simply unfeasible during these days. But regardless of how old the work is, the fact that there are so many today, with many of them very respectable and different--that is the piece that seems relevant.

Or we could look at the Divine Comedy. No translations for 500 years, and then suddenly, starting at the turn of the 19th century, there have been something like 100 English translations. It's a bit insane. Why so many? Surely some of those prior translations had to be considered good or great? We could certainly go down the rabbit hole of exploring that, but why? It's enough for the purpose of this discussion to acknowledge that it happens. Maybe a day will come when numerous Spanish translations of Lord of the Rings will come to be. Maybe it will have something to do with the copywrite expiring.

Quote
multiple translations of a single media is a common practice across books, film subtitles, and so on, yet gamers seem to have the most resistance to the concept.
actually, I get the feeling that most gamers care less about translation and more about having "a game with English text in it".
why can't different translations of something exist? I'm sure if DQ Delocalised released their own hacks of the remakes, there'd still be a bunch of people playing the older hacks simply because of how long they've been around. meanwhile, gamers who are more concerned about translation will take the time to research and evaluate the newer hacks.
I very much agree Goznog that gamers just want English text, however that is manifested, but with an overwhelming preference for official releases and the newest versions. The average gamer simply does not care about the finer points (while they might care about whatever offends their nostalgia). It makes concerns about dividing the fan base or disparaging hacker legacies seem kind of silly. We have this tiny little minority of people that cares about these things, and among that group of people, there are all kinds of different preferences & priorities. Let's drop the illusions of grandeur, treat this as the niche hobby that it is, and be more supportive of the diversity of the work produced within this little world of ours.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 03:53:22 pm by Chicken Knife »

Red Soul

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #150 on: June 23, 2021, 04:38:03 pm »
I very much agree Goznog that gamers just want English text, however that is manifested, but with an overwhelming preference for official releases and the newest versions. The average gamer simply does not care about the finer points (while they might care about whatever offends their nostalgia). It makes concerns about dividing the fan base or disparaging hacker legacies seem kind of silly. We have this tiny little minority of people that cares about these things, and among that group of people, there are all kinds of different preferences & priorities. Let's drop the illusions of grandeur, treat this as the niche hobby that it is, and be more supportive of the diversity of the work produced within this little world of ours.

This. I was going to add my say to other bullet points on the conversation, but I think it would just become an endless iteration of circular thinking. It's not reasonable to put any kind of work on a pedestal, be it fan made or official, and it is not wrong to try to correct what is clearly incorrect or sounds unnatural.

Just because something is well-written enough that it isn't plain gibberish doesn't mean that it cannot and should not be improved.
As I said before, I am a purist, I enjoy literal and accurate scripts. Someone else might love the Working Designs trainwrecks or say "we were lucky to even get something" and settle for that. Other than rosy-tinted saudosism, there's no need to operate on low bars.

Fans do fan translations because they enjoy it, not to get street rep. Fan translators aren't gaming crack groups trying to claim first dibs. Also, just because someone modifies a script, it doesn't mean they'll add sily inserts or fart jokes; I don't think we are dealing with pre-pubescent teenagers here, so all this rhetoric about wanting to preserve the original work doesn't have a lot of ground; it will be a distinct derivation, no one is going to throw the original into a black hole, never to be seen again.

No one is trying to ruin anyone's legacy here and people are free to use whatever source they want to play whatever they want, but no one is going to burst into flames for wanting to try to bring a better experience to others. Even if better is relative, different tastes can and should be taken into account, and that is a good thing.

Let's not erect holy monoliths for things that shouldn't have them.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 05:43:57 pm by Red Soul »

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #151 on: June 23, 2021, 06:47:37 pm »
Do you think individuals were actually empowered to create translations in the middle ages in the way that people are now?
"Empowered"? Lol. What's that.
They couldn't make many translations of the Bible because they had lost the originals Lol, until Constantinople fell, that they could access the Greek and Hebrew originals thanks to exiled monks. Until then nothing! Besides that the Vulgata got a prestige, and also became the official text of the Church. Besides that not everybody is or was qualified to interpret that text correctly, nor they could translate it however they wanted, there had to be some rules. Otherwise imagine the chaos (that's a difference with Protestantism, by the way: whoever can make a translation without a quality filter and much quotation).

That's partly my point with this.

If whoever comes makes whatever translation they want over the other we end up in anarchy: in an anarchic mess of patches and translations that most of people, not so informed, won't know which is the right.
Added to this is not easy to read Japanese (thanks goodness Lol).

I'm only waiting your full list of things. Don't pass them to me one by one. Pass me the whole bunch. I will find a page with the Japanese script, will start translating it myself with a good dictionary, will compare your things, see if your points have a point, and if I see reasonable and right your criterium you will have my blessings. I will help you in whatever you need.

Anyway I don't know why you necessarily want to convince me. Probably you've already figured out how to remove the splash, it's not hard.

For my blessing, I just need facts, and to check the thing myself with the Japanese source in my hand and your list in the other hand. I'm a philologist. I'm very used to do these things with Middle Ages original handscripts (or photocopies of them, of different versions of a book from different countries), in Arabic language or in old Castilian (with damn paleographic letters), this is even easier, because it's printed, typographic text, the only complication are kanjis, but they're not many in this game, and with a good dictionary, my knowledge of Japanese grammar will let me see the truth.


Quote from: Red Soul
I think it would just become an endless iteration of circular thinking.

Don't worry about that circular thing. I have said everything I had to say. I think my points have been understood, as I have Chicken K.'s. I've said nearly my last word.

By the way, you were right in your reviews. You encouraged me to do this port. Other people did too through different social networks, like Twitter or Facebook, but your review was the detonating drop. What did it cost me? Only answering by here to many kinds of attacks of all the varieties, even linguistic ones Lol.
Well. I can't deny it's funny.

Quote from: Red Soul
Let's not erect holy monoliths for things that shouldn't have them.

There're no holy monoliths, I think you misunderstand me.
There are philological criteria, in a subject where I have a formation and a qualification, and I try to be professional.
I'm not illiterate in Japanese. Maybe I'm not fluent, but my knowledge of read Japanese is enough to understand what is happening with good dictionaries, that I have in paper since before starting the university, and patience. I also know some 500 kanjis by heart (the standard list is around 2000).

That's it.
If I see the translation is good, except some details, it's not for free.
It's not because of a religious belief, nor fanatism, nor idolatry, nor I'm a fanboy nor anything. I have an age for being fanboy.

Quote
Just because something is well-written enough that it isn't plain gibberish doesn't mean that it cannot and should not be improved.
We're not talking about improving. We're talking about investing months in correcting... a whole team of people!
It seems RPGone is just a person, ChrisRPG. He didn't even translate, he was one of the main ROMhackers.
The translator was spspiff.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 07:04:17 pm by RodMerida »

Red Soul

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #152 on: June 23, 2021, 09:22:37 pm »
Don't worry about that circular thing. I have said everything I had to say. I think my points have been understood, as I have Chicken K.'s. I've said nearly my last word.

By the way, you were right in your reviews. You encouraged me to do this port. Other people did too through different social networks, like Twitter or Facebook, but your review was the detonating drop. What did it cost me? Only answering by here to many kinds of attacks of all the varieties, even linguistic ones Lol.
Well. I can't deny it's funny.

I'm glad my review drove you to go out of your way with it, I never thought it would amount to a positive change like this.
I hope you never felt attacked by my comments, if you did, I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention.

That's it.
If I see the translation is good, except some details, it's not for free.
It's not because of a religious belief, nor fanatism, nor idolatry, nor I'm a fanboy nor anything. I have an age for being fanboy.
We're not talking about improving. We're talking about investing months in correcting... a whole team of people!
It seems RPGone is just a person, ChrisRPG. He didn't even translate, he was one of the main ROMhackers.
The translator was spspiff.

Yes, but what can seem like an inconsequential detail to someone won't be for someone else. I am bothered by small incorherencies and errors, even if the most people won't care. I know I do care. People that are driven enough to do retranslations care about such things.

When I mentioned holy monoliths I was just making an absurdist metaphor to your apparent dedication to the translation as is, I know you aren't a fanatic.

I understand that in part what you would like is to avoid the repetition of efforts, but really Chicken Knife and company want to do it, and many, including myself, appreciate this.

Contrary to what you believe, though, retranslations won't lead to a wild west where there are many, many kinds of retranslations of all flavors. People that have the technical know how, passion and commitment to even consider doing this are very serious; it's not going to be sub-par. It may not be to everyone's taste, but it certainly will please many.

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #153 on: June 23, 2021, 09:33:15 pm »
it's not going to be sub-par. It may not be to everyone's taste, but it certainly will please many.
Okay, okay. I believe you.

I understand that in part what you would like is to avoid the repetition of efforts, but really Chicken Knife and company want to do it, and many, including myself, appreciate this.
I don't doubt it.
They're eager to do this.
They don't seem to find any thrauma in the repetition of efforts. Lol.

I've done my advice, anyway.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 07:15:26 am by RodMerida »

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #154 on: June 24, 2021, 08:40:41 am »
I don't doubt it.
They're eager to do this.
They don't seem to find any thrauma in the repetition of efforts. Lol.
Yes, and when we publish it, half of the responses will be people loudly condemning us for our unwillingness to include options for the official spell names. :laugh:

Quote
I'm only waiting your full list of things. Don't pass them to me one by one. Pass me the whole bunch. I will find a page with the Japanese script, will start translating it myself with a good dictionary, will compare your things, see if your points have a point, and if I see reasonable and right your criterium you will have my blessings. I will help you in whatever you need.
You may not think you need a native Japanese speaker to inquire with, but you most assuredly do. The guidance they can provide, particularly with the presence of obscure Japanese expressions, is essential. You won't find resources to help with those matters. We probably reference our native speaking partner 30 times in the course of a translation, and most of the time, when we do, we learn that the way we were going to go with a certain line was very wrong, because there are expressions that half-way make sense rendered in a literal way, but mean something very different to a Japanese native speaker. I think that the majority of the problems that exist in game translations are a direct result of non-native translators relying only on dictionaries and never taking that additional step.

Our concern is that you are going to compare our proposals that create equivalent expressions to the previous renderings that interpret the expression in a literal way, and you are going to look up the Japanese, also read it in a literal way, and say look here: the original translation is better. And we are not very confident that you will look at the stilted, awkward resulting idea and feel that there is a problem. You loved the use of "mortifying" that conveyed the wrong idea to 99.999% of the readership.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 08:54:52 am by Chicken Knife »

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #155 on: June 24, 2021, 08:45:15 am »
Of course it's much better with a native. Or with someone fluent in Japanese.
My Japanese reading is slow and with dictionary. It's good for some paragraphs, but would be too slow and time taking for a whole game.

Anyway, the important thing in a translation is the translator to be native in the targetting language.

Can I please talk with that native friend?

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #156 on: June 24, 2021, 08:53:21 am »
Anyway, the important thing in a translation is the translator to be native in the targetting language.
That might be acceptable, but it's far from ideal. Having both sides is a powerful thing.

And with my native friend? I'll inquire when that becomes relevant.

nejimakipiyo

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #157 on: June 24, 2021, 09:14:30 am »
I'm only waiting your full list of things. Don't pass them to me one by one. Pass me the whole bunch.

The reason I did a chunk at a time so far was because I have to actually play through the game to acquire these lines, spend time cross-referencing the Japanese line, and then write an explanation for why the translation is wrong. It's not something I can whip up at the snap of a finger. DQ1 isn't a long game by any means, but it would probably take me multiple hours a day for a week or more to be able to produce a full list of errors with the game. There are many more than I thought there would be before I started. (And this is without even mentioning DQ2, which will take twice as long or longer.)

I'll do it, and push myself through the suffering of reading a massacred English script in an otherwise lovely game. All I ask of you is that you be more willing to perceive errors as they are, and stop making excuses for sloppy, poor quality writing.


I will find a page with the Japanese script, will start translating it myself with a good dictionary, will compare your things, see if your points have a point, and if I see reasonable and right your criterium you will have my blessings. I will help you in whatever you need.

I can give you a page with the Japanese script. It's unfortunately not complete (I had trouble finding a complete one, so I had to resort to starting a Japanese file to verify some lines) but it has the majority of the lines. This is the page I'm referencing.

https://cour89.com/

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #158 on: June 24, 2021, 11:26:24 am »
All I ask of you is that you be more willing to perceive errors as they are, and stop making excuses for sloppy, poor quality writing.
Hahahahahahaha.
Okay. Seeing is believing for me.

Quote from: nejimakipiyo
This is the page I'm referencing.
Very kind from you.

June 24, 2021, 11:27:52 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
____
By the way, there is a new version of the patch ready, that can be ontained in our webpage: http://crackowia.gq/dqust1n2.html
or in the submission queue.

Recca

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #159 on: June 24, 2021, 03:14:39 pm »
Do you know why? Because it's not necessary more. And because it's of very good quality too. It's faithful, and everybody understands it perfectly, so redoing a so damn long work seems useless.

That's my point.

P.S.: I'd like to hear other opinions from people too.
I agree completely with what you're saying here and with the examples that you've listed above. Is there a point to re-translating a game that already has a completed translation? The answer is sometimes, but usually no. Now let's consider these following examples of when such an effort might be merited or not:

Breath of Fire II for example had an awful and at times, hard to understand official translation released back in the 90s. Ryusui's re-translation effort was indeed much needed and was also greatly appreciated by many fans of this game and series in general. Having played through both versions myself, I can say without a doubt that this one is by far the better of the two. Not only has the script been greatly improved upon, but it also adds some nice new menu graphics, intro music and the ability to run.

On the other hand, the numerous re-translations that exist for games such as Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI do seem like a massive waste of time. Ted Woolsey's translations are very accurate for the most part and very professionally written. The only people who complain about them are nitpickers who do not represent the opinions of most JRPG fans. I can link to many different message boards from other sites where people complain constantly about why there's no current translation for a game when another already has multiple different translations of it by different people. A lot of them are especially annoyed to see news posts of a game getting re-translated again instead of a new one being worked on.

The same can be said with the fan translation community as well. In this example, Dejap released an amazing translation for Bahamut Lagoon back in the early 2000s that was beloved by many people. Then a re-translation of it was released recently this year that claims to "be better because it uses modern romhacking tools" or whatever. I've played both versions and still prefer the original Dejap version. Now, I'm not saying this as an absolute statement, as it is a matter of personal taste and opinion. What I am trying to say however, is that it seems like a bit of a waste of time to re-translate a game that already has a good translation which exists instead of tackling another game that doesn't even have one to begin with.

Even if a new translation is "slightly better" than the previous existing one, is it really worth the effort? I of course and can't tell others what to do in their spare time, but is it truly not more of a productive use of one's time and effort to focus on translating a new game rather than one that has already been completed years ago? Well anyway, I've got my own translation projects to focus working on behalf of Dynamic-Designs, so I'll be off now.
"Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind."
- Edward D. Morrison (Tales of Phantasia)