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Author Topic: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida  (Read 34335 times)

saldite

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #120 on: June 21, 2021, 07:33:53 pm »
@Rod, regarding DQ3's patch again, I just noticed something pretty obvious right at the beginning: The yes/no prompts don't lead to the correct responses during the personality questions.

The most obvious one was the Queen's scenario, where the Yes response plays the "no" dialogue from the king and vise versa, even though the yes/no choice applies as it normally should. I know it's not directly related to your own patch for 1+2, but if you ever go onto do 3, I'd really recommend double checking the whole personality quiz just to make sure the responses are correct (even if you're just planning on a Spanish translation).

Piotyr

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #121 on: June 21, 2021, 07:50:51 pm »
Remember Rod that many people are grateful for your work and the rude people are a vocal minority.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #122 on: June 21, 2021, 08:22:59 pm »
I was talking about this patch, man.
Sounds good. With that said, along with the generally more positive course of our recent discussion, it sounds like there is a basis for cooperation. Nejimakipiyo and I happen to feel inspired by your challenge that we lay out a thorough list of problematic lines along with our own proposed renderings. We might even go as far as to include official translation samples as well if our time warrants.

It would seem that the only efficient way for us to catalogue translation issues like this when we haven't directly worked on the SFC version of DQI&II is to actually work on the SFC version of DQI&II. The new script would be heavily informed by our NES scripts of DQI & DQII, but vetted by a review of the Japanese SFC script.

This probably goes without saying, but if we do this and produce a substantial list of issues, I think that the expectation would be that you are not going to go back and use that information to try to fix everything in the RPGOne translation. If we invest the time and energy into a thorough translation effort and make a compelling case for its value, we would want to see the fruit of that labor manifested in our own unique script.

It's funny--we were previously torn between two other DQ games that we wanted to work on next. But as is usually the case when I'm torn between two things, I end up going with a third.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 08:58:03 pm by Chicken Knife »

Red Soul

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #123 on: June 21, 2021, 10:25:21 pm »
It would seem that the only efficient way for us to catalogue translation issues like this when we haven't directly worked on the SFC version of DQI&II is to actually work on the SFC version of DQI&II. The new script would be heavily informed by our NES scripts of DQI & DQII, but vetted by a review of the Japanese SFC script.

Totally stoked at the prospect of this. In an ideal world, 3, 5 and 6 would get a similar layer of polish too.

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #124 on: June 22, 2021, 03:33:46 am »
@Rod, regarding DQ3's patch again, I just noticed something pretty obvious right at the beginning: The yes/no prompts don't lead to the correct responses during the personality questions.

The most obvious one was the Queen's scenario, where the Yes response plays the "no" dialogue from the king and vise versa, even though the yes/no choice applies as it normally should. I know it's not directly related to your own patch for 1+2, but if you ever go onto do 3, I'd really recommend double checking the whole personality quiz just to make sure the responses are correct (even if you're just planning on a Spanish translation).

I'm doing the Spanish translation, but if something like that is happening I can't flee from fixing it. Once fixed, I have no problem to port it to the current English text.

Would you say that happens only with the Queen's intro test, or in whatever Yes/No question of the personality quiz? If it did, it would be a very serious and decisive mistake, that is keeping people in ignorance.

June 22, 2021, 03:34:18 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Remember Rod that many people are grateful for your work and the rude people are a vocal minority.

Thank you. ^_^. You give me hope.

June 22, 2021, 04:05:55 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
It would seem that the only efficient way for us to catalogue translation issues like this when we haven't directly worked on the SFC version of DQI&II is to actually work on the SFC version of DQI&II.

Of course. Notice that the text script in NES Dragon Warrior's I and II, has many differences with the SNES RPGone's Dragon Quest I&II script, even though the general idea of events and contents is the same. But the game experience is not the same. And those differences come from the Japanese script itself, and the fact that both versions use different engines, and different dialog windows formats.

That's why I'm seriously considering porting my translation to Dragon Warriors' ones (regarding those differences), in the moment I have more time.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 04:07:36 am by RodMerida »

saldite

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #125 on: June 22, 2021, 08:12:13 am »
I'm doing the Spanish translation, but if something like that is happening I can't flee from fixing it. Once fixed, I have no problem to port it to the current English text.

Would you say that happens only with the Queen's intro test, or in whatever Yes/No question of the personality quiz? If it did, it would be a very serious and decisive mistake, that is keeping people in ignorance.

It seems like it's only the personality scenarios (at least so far) where its really an issue. From what I could tell with testing the main personality questions, those seem to lead to the right locations Yes/No-wise.

Technically, the scenarios also lead to the correct location Yes/No-wise, but the dialogue itself is switched ("No" dialogue for "Yes" answers).

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #126 on: June 22, 2021, 09:12:22 am »
That's why I'm seriously considering porting my translation to Dragon Warriors' ones (regarding those differences), in the moment I have more time.
If you do get to it and want to verify the differences against a Japanese faithful English script, you will not find a more accurate and readable one than ours.

aqualung

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #127 on: June 22, 2021, 09:17:05 am »
It seems like it's only the personality scenarios (at least so far) where its really an issue. From what I could tell with testing the main personality questions, those seem to lead to the right locations Yes/No-wise.

Technically, the scenarios also lead to the correct location Yes/No-wise, but the dialogue itself is switched ("No" dialogue for "Yes" answers).

I suppose this has to be with that peculiarity in Japanese language of sometimes using yes and no in an almost opposite way as many Western languages. It's something we were warned at the language school when I was studying Japanese.

For instance, if I understood the nuance correctly:

-Isn't Marc a student?

we'd say:
-no (he isn't)

Jp people say:
- yes. (yes, it's true what you say about Marc not being an student)

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #128 on: June 22, 2021, 09:50:42 am »
I suppose this has to be with that peculiarity in Japanese language of sometimes using yes and no in an almost opposite way as many Western languages. It's something we were warned at the language school when I was studying Japanese.

For instance, if I understood the nuance correctly:

-Isn't Marc a student?

we'd say:
-no (he isn't)

Jp people say:
- yes. (yes, it's true what you say about Marc not being an student)
nejimakipiyo would be the one to respond to this specifically, but it wouldn't surprise me, considering what my group frequently observed with the DQ Translations DQ3 script. They would translate in a way that was hyper literal, with lacking regard to context and lacking understanding of Japanese expressions. The meaning would regularly get lost as a result of their approach. When handling those difficult kind of lines, the results were frequently awkward at best, or simply wrong at worst.

My suggestion to Rod is that he waits for our group to produce a DQ3 SFC translation before doing his Spanish one. Otherwise, he will have to be redoing a *lot* after we demonstrate the extent of the problems. We are not so slow with producing scripts, especially when our existing work on the NES versions will speed up the process significantly. If Rod doesn't want to wait, my suggestion is that he simultaneously looks at official scripts. They might have plenty of censorship, they might make excessive use of accents and puns, they might embellish the text in general, but the Japanese comprehension of the translators was pretty good.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 10:15:06 am by Chicken Knife »

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #129 on: June 22, 2021, 10:26:09 am »
with the DQ Translations DQ3 script. They would translate in a way that was hyper literal, with lacking regard to context and lacking understanding of Japanese expressions. The meaning would regularly get lost as a result of their approach.
I'm understanding everything very well.
And I'm beyond the half.

When handling those difficult kind of lines, the results were frequently awkward at best, or simply wrong at worst.
How exagerated. Lol
I'm finding a very professional work, man.

My suggestion to Rod is that he waits for our group to produce a DQ3 SFC translation before doing his Spanish one. Otherwise, he will have to be redoing a *lot* after we demonstrate the extent of the problems.
The remake is coming. After that almost nobody will play our stuff.
There's no time for that.

If Rod doesn't want to wait, my suggestion is that he simultaneously looks at official scripts.
I have it in an Excel file.
A friend has ripped it, hidden, from inside a Japanese modern version, that was unreleased outside Japan.
Maybe I'm the second person in the world that has that right now? Lol.

But for a matter of speed I'm just translating whatever I find in the DQTranslations's script and once I'm finished I'll review the Excel quickly, by comparing.

But the DQ3 script is really long.
I had to ask some help to another translator for accelerating, and even that way I'm suffering.

I hope DQ3 remake release won't be until 2022, or all this will be useless. Lol
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 10:39:08 am by RodMerida »

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #130 on: June 22, 2021, 10:50:34 am »
I'm understanding everything very well.
And I'm beyond the half.
How exagerated. Lol
I'm finding a very professional work, man.
You will see. We are good at bringing things to light that people don't initially notice. Once you notice, it's very hard to not notice. On the other hand, we are far pickier and harsher than most on writing, so let's see what the result looks like to others.

Quote
The remake is coming. After that almost nobody will play our stuff.
There's no time for that.
Hah. I suppose this is true. But we make things first for our own pleasure, and second for others. And we enjoy the process tremendously. I'm planning to take my time and get it right, whatever the reception. But I understand and respect your focus on impact.

Quote
I have it in an Excel file.
A friend has ripped it, hidden, from inside a Japanese modern version, that was unreleased outside Japan.
Maybe I'm the second person in the world that has that right now? Lol.
I'm confused by what it is you have. A rip of the Japanese contemporary script? I'm not sure how that helps you if you are not a Japanese reader.

Quote
But the DQ3 script is really long.
I had to ask some help to another translator for accelerating, and even that way I'm suffering.
Yes... Our task with the NES version felt never ending compared to the others.

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #131 on: June 22, 2021, 11:16:58 am »
we make things first for our own pleasure, and second for others.
I like something I have invested many days or weeks doing is of help to many people, not just to a gourmet minority.

Quote from: Chicken Knife
I'm confused by what it is you have. A rip of the Japanese contemporary script?
An unreleased official English script, completely finished.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #132 on: June 22, 2021, 11:25:55 am »
Quote
An unreleased official English script, completely finished.
I would absolutely love the opportunity to look at this, though it seems like you have a rare treasure in your hands and might want to maintain its rarity.  :laugh:

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #133 on: June 22, 2021, 11:29:44 am »
I would absolutely love the opportunity to look at this, though it seems like you have a rare treasure in your hands and might want to maintain its rarity.  :laugh:

Haha. No, it's not a Rembrandt.
I will use it for my translation and then share it.

I could insert it in the SNES DQ3 English ROM made by DQ Translations too, but I like very much this translation; so that divides my feelings. Besides I don't have that much time.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #134 on: June 23, 2021, 12:50:42 am »
It will take us months to circle back to you (and the community in general) with a complete list of our issues with the RPGOne DQI&II translation. In the meantime, we are seeing lines in these games almost immediately that we consider problematic. Just to provide an example:



I'm curious if you can see any of the problems here.

First, would any native English speaking priest ever say this, as an introductory statement no less? (the answer is no.) It would sound better by simply removing the second "the", but the repetition of benevolent also doesn't particularly work.

Furthermore, why did this author choose plural for gods? Truthful, the Japanese could be interpreted either way, but look at the cross symbol next to him. Look at the western priestly garb. These early Dragon Quest churches seem to be inspired by Christianity, and in general, these priests come across as monotheistic in their text. I can't help but think of the strict monotheism of the missionary priest in Jipang when we get to DQ3. Of course, there are references to the "Spirit of the Land", Rubiss, who is also a kind of divine entity, but she seems to be outside the scope this religion, or at the least, subordinate to a greater god.

This line was the same in the Famicom version of the game, and we rendered it:

Our benevolent God is an ally to the righteous.

Less literal, but captures the essence, and a much more natural sounding priestly platitude. I could actually hear it being said.

We are certainly going to include more egregious translation problems, but I thought I'd post this an example of the majority of things that rub us wrong. I can see many people here saying "not such a big deal; I get the idea." But for me? It doesn't work. The clumsiness of lines like this breaks the immersion.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 01:03:16 am by Chicken Knife »

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #135 on: June 23, 2021, 02:48:00 am »
They are polytheistic in this game, Chicken Knife.

It's an atemporal game. They share the same cross symbol, but they don't mention Jesus Christ anywhere, so the cross could be whatever. They just mention Roto (they even say he was a gift from gods). And it's a Japanese game, with much shintoist influence. Remember Japanese and Eastern people tend to mix religions: Japanese mix shintoism with buddhism all the time. Maybe they are mixing christianism with polytheism here. It's like when in Dragon Ball Akira Toriyama draws the people of some village like arabs, are they arabs? We don't know. Is Oo-Long Chinese, or communist? We don't know, it's just an atemporal world with influences from those cultures. We even see some men that are humanoid animals.

That benevolent thing sounds cool to me. If I had done the translation I would have prefered to use a synonymous for the 2nd "benevolent" and I'd had removed the 2nd "the", but I've not done it. That repetition could be an aliteration (sounds repetition) resource. I'm just bugfixing a little here. I have to respect the way the original translator chose meanwhile it's not clearly grammarly broken or it's not a typo.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 03:03:26 am by RodMerida »

Red Soul

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #136 on: June 23, 2021, 05:22:45 am »
I was curious about this issue so I went back and did some digging.

They are polytheistic in this game, Chicken Knife.

I wonder? I went back and checked the church messages for 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 and the priests all invoke either the Goddess or the Almighty, with starting capitals and singular.

While it can be hard to discern such things in Japanese, without checking the script we can't really be certain of either, and while the localized scripts for later games may have chosen Goddess over God as a manner of censorship, the fact remains it is a singular entity when the priests speak about it.

It's an atemporal game. They share the same cross symbol, but they don't mention Jesus Christ anywhere, so the cross could be whatever.

Yes, but not mentioning Jesus doesn't mean they are necessarily polythetistic or syncretic, although I agree the symbology linked to the cross is vast (although it is still my personal belief that it at least tries to hint at the medieval church institution. The garments of the priests, the music that accompanies the interior, when applicable, and so on).

Also a lot of Dragon Quest games had their crosses censored and changed into something else. You could maybe think they were being overly cautious, but I don't think so; they could easily be construed as a christian cross and that's why they were changed, even though many different kinds of cross do exist, like the Ankh.

Maybe they are mixing christianism with polytheism here. It's like when in Dragon Ball Akira Toriyama draws the people of some village

Maybe, but the Japanese are a lot less uptight about many things, and religion is one of them. I feel Yuji Horii just chose that since it would fit his desired medieval setting - there's probably not a lot of deep thinking into this aspect, though I could be wrong.

That benevolent thing sounds cool to me. If I had done the translation I would have prefered to use a synonymous for the 2nd "benevolent" and I'd had removed the 2nd "the", but I've not done it. That repetition could be an aliteration (sounds repetition) resource. I'm just bugfixing a little here. I have to respect the way the original translator chose meanwhile it's not clearly grammarly broken or it's not a typo.

It could be taken as emphatic repetition I guess, an outburst of faith, if you will, so it's not inherently wrong in this context, although it still sounds a little stilted, if you ask me.

I'm not trying to speak for Chicken Knife or trying to throw tar onto what you two are trying to accomplish here, but I'm genuinely interested in being part of the conversation. I won't create any problems to you guys.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 05:47:08 am by Red Soul »

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #137 on: June 23, 2021, 06:33:03 am »
When I referenced Christianity, I thought it would be obvious that that religion isn't being conveyed specifically, but rather in an abstract way--there for aesthetics if you will. Although there are eastern inspired locations and characters in Dragon Quest games, the conventions and style of western medieval history very much dominates the setting, and we all know the religion that dominated western medieval history.

And a comment I'll pass along from nejimakipiyo: And given that Horii used plural to denote a pantheon in 2, I would say he'd have done the same in 1 if the priest was referring to multiple gods. Horii isn't sloppy

We've translated a few of these games now, and yes, the priests have consistently referred to god in a form where the standard interpretation would be singular.

Quote
I'm not trying to speak for Chicken Knife or trying to throw tar onto what you two are trying to accomplish here, but I'm genuinely interested in being part of the conversation. I won't create any problems to you guys.
I think other voices in these matters are important. Rod and I probably both have predispositions here that make our overall opinions suspect. Rod has made his fierce loyalty to these existing English translators clear, so he will probably do what most will do in that scenario: argue strongly where there is any grey area, and mostly go silent on my stronger points. And there is still the matter of Rod not being a native English speaker. He might know the rules of English, but will be weak in terms of assessing what sounds natural, as there are far more unwritten rules than written ones, I'd say.

As for me? The new folks certainly have a way of disrespecting the old folks when it comes to translation. I've seen it countless times, where new writers come along and gleefully throw the old writers in the gutter. Some of my commentary has probably leaned that way already, and I want to try my best to be fair and reasonable. I like this being a public discussion in the sense that others can help keep me in check, discounting the occasionally absurd and irrational arguments we might randomly accumulate from an open forum.

I'm kind of tempted to keep dropping things like this here if there is an interest. It might mute the cumulative effect of putting everything together at once, and I might end up spending far too much time arguing points on a forum thread rather than working on my stated intention, but it is nevertheless tempting.

RodMerida

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #138 on: June 23, 2021, 06:55:13 am »
the priests all invoke either the Goddess or the Almighty,
The only fact they call that deity in feminine already implies a polytheistic conception of the world. If they were true monotheists God would have no gender, it would be an abstract concept, so it would be neutral (with undetermined gender). The non-specified gender form for god/goddess is its basis form, or lexeme: "god".

Also, the fact in DQ2 citizens complain Hargon is trying to invoke Malroth, an evil god, it means even though there is only a benevolent god that must be worshipped, evil deities also exists, with power enough to be considered dangerous.

It was a similar concept to Akhen Aton religious view, with his cult to the only Sun-god, Aton, refusing worshipping the other minor deities.
This is called: monolatry or henotheism.

Same happened with primitive Abrahamism, as it's seen in the oldest parts of the Bible itself. God requested being the only worshipped god and considered the others powerless, not worthful of worshipping. Judaism is a religion that evolved from polytheism to monotheism, passing by an intermediate henotheistic stage. Some remnants of this view we may find them in the Hebrew word for God: "Elohim", that means "Gods". -im is the plural mark. Eloh would be the singular for god (same word as in Arabic ilāh, god).


So maybe the first DQ's used a lexical plural for a singular concept, no? I think that aspect needs to be conserved in a translation. It's very interesting.


Rod has made his fierce loyalty to these existing English translators clear
Lol. My "fierce loyalty", how funny phrase.
I only think they made a good job.
Japanese is more ambiguous than Western languages.
When I translated from Japanese to English that DQ1 alternate ending that was untranslated in RPGOne's translation, I said things in my own style (with very serious problems with limit of space, by the way), but the result meant exactly the same RPGOne people had translated in the standard variant of the ending (and I translated without copying from it at any moment). They were just synonymic. Believe me.
There I noticed they translated well. They didn't translate everything too literally, and they even solved the space problem in a very elegant way.
As philologist I cannot put that work in the bin just due to minor aspects.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 07:22:15 am by RodMerida »

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
« Reply #139 on: June 23, 2021, 08:01:50 am »
The only fact they call that deity in feminine already implies a polytheistic conception of the world.
While I probably would agree that the priests would acknowledge the existence of other gods (at least gods of evil), they do not make reference to a god in the feminine form for at least the first few Dragon Quest games. Not sure yet when that started (if that started) in the Japanese versions.

"Elohim", that means "Gods". -im is the plural mark. Eloh would be the singular for god (same word as in Arabic ilāh, god).
Not an equivalency. Kami is neither inherently singular or plural, and there are ways Horii could have clarified that the priests worshipped a pantheon if he wanted to, just as he referred to the evil gods in the plural within the same game.

There's even a DQ3 line in Alefgard that goes: "God is light, and the Archfiend is darkness." Clearly singular to singular. Or would you propose that Horii is contrasting a plural set of gods to an individual Zoma? I don't think so.

Quote
When I translated from Japanese to English that DQ1 alternate ending that was untranslated in RPGOne's translation, I said things in my own style (with very serious problems with limit of space, by the way), but the result meant exactly the same RPGOne people had translated in the standard variant of the ending (and I translated without copying from it at any moment). They were just synonymic. Believe me.
There I noticed they translated well. They didn't translate everything too literally, and they even solved the space problem in a very elegant way.
Again, I'm not saying they didn't try hard or had no skill. I'm also not saying that what we produce won't be nitpicked flaws in the future by some other upstart. But we are rapidly accumulating a laundry list of what we perceive to be issues. Some pickier and like minded fans will agree. Some will just love our work because we toss out more of the localization conventions than these other translators did. Some people will hate us for that. Some will think that our issues are minor in the end. That's all ok. I think that options are important. You yourself are someone who has published Spanish translations for games that already have a Spanish translation, and thus have provided similar options to the public. Would everyone agree with you that the original version was so bad? Did you have people condemning you for replacing an existing Spanish translation? As someone said before in the thread, I think the whole hacking community revolves around the spirit of options, that there is no dogmatic loyalty to an absolute version of anything. That everything is up for debate, and that minority views can be treated as valid and catered to.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 08:08:01 am by Chicken Knife »