News: 11 March 2016 - Forum Rules
Current Moderators - DarkSol, KingMike, MathOnNapkins, Azkadellia, Danke

Author Topic: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!  (Read 7129 times)

knight0fdragon

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 34
    • View Profile
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2021, 03:25:07 am »
No offense but what is the point of a re-translation to improve upon the original translation for a more faithful rendition, if you don't even know Japanese? That defeats the purpose entirely. I'm glad you put it as improvement and not translation, but as a localization, original text and language learning enthusiast I'm confused.

I get localizing Japanese pop culture that wouldn't be understandable to most westerners but it feels very amateur, like you add FF references as a quick one size fits all fix and. I feel like you should focus on learning some Japanese before tackling a rewrite.

As much as I like his translations, I'm not saying you can't rewrite "Our Lord And Savio(u)r Theodore Woolsey"'s "hard labor", I'm just saying if you're gonna do something like this, at least understand the source language.

You act like there are not a plethora of resources out there that cannot assist in providing a more faithful translation.  You can also understand the meaning behind a language without understanding the actual language itself.  This helps when it comes to working with machine translations.

Chicken Knife

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 616
    • View Profile
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2021, 07:21:23 am »
I love this fighting spirit to push yourself to the next level with Japanese. :woot!: Neji and I were just chatting about it. Please keep in mind that even when you attain a solid functionality with Japanese, you are still going to encounter a lot of cryptic expressions or lines that seem subtly off in English that you'll have a very difficult time navigating accurately without running by more advanced Japanese speakers, or especially native ones. There is absolutely nothing wrong with brainstorming lines with others as part of the learning process when you aren't finding clear answers yourself.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 07:27:16 am by Chicken Knife »

CoolCatBomberMan

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2021, 12:58:51 pm »
I don't know if this was used at all, but I did a translation comparison stream of SMRPG about 4 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxo9Ve0LWW4&list=PL8fufren85t_E6vw92iocjusuqJTl03j8

Wish I knew about that earlier! Now I have another resource to cross-reference! Thanks!

Chaud

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2021, 01:33:01 pm »
Well, get used to it, man. As more and more people keep abandoning the translation scene, burned out of the usual negativity, drama and such, we'll have to rely more and more on automatic translations (I'm playing Madara 2 right now by using a real-time text extractor that I've coded myself and pasting the dialogs on DeepL and, frankly, the translations returned are coherent 90% of the time, making the game completely playable and following the plot really well. I wish I had done this much earlier).

Honestly, the translations from DeepL don't come out that bad. I mean, they are far from perfect, but I would say that with a good proofreading by an editor to fix some details, the final result can come out surprisingly good, even better than official translations sometimes. For example, there are a number of Chinese games called Tale of Wuxia (among others) where the official translation can be more confusing in many ways than a machine translation, which is surprising. Obviously I'm not saying it's the same case when it comes to SMRPG, but my point is just that a good editor can save a script if he knows how to write well and has a good grasp of the content in general.

But doing a machine translation only makes sense if the original translation simply does not exist, or is in a deplorable state. SMRPG is no amazing example of a great translation, but it is functional as is. Honestly, I admire the dedication, but I think in this context it was a misplaced effort - because in practice, we are trading one problem for another.

AwesomeHairo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2021, 04:40:34 pm »
I have a question: why keep the "?!" ? It wasn't like that in the Japanese script.

Also, you've forgot commas after 'Hey's and you put commas when it's not necessary 😂.

It just needs to be proof-read and some changes made. For example, with this:

"It's our first step towards taking[1] over this world![3] And if it weren't for nosey[1] characters like YOU...[2] We'd practically OWN the world!"

I changed it to: "It's our first step towards taking[1] over this world![3] And if it weren't for nosey[1] characters like YOU...[2] We'd practically OWN it!" I hope you understand why.

Lastly, about the "all right/alright" thing that is common in localising: Much like FF IX where they only use 'alright', SMRPG exclusively use 'all right'. Like I did with FF IX dialogue, I split the uses so 'alright' is used for interjections like, "Alright, let's go!", and 'all right' with confirming the well-being of someone ("Are you all right?", "I'm glad everyone is all right.")

I hope this helps if you ever do a revision.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 05:05:03 pm by AwesomeHairo »

Cristal

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2021, 06:33:06 pm »
I'd like to point out some links that could be helpful for your project:

https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Characters
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Bosses
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Places
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Items
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Enemies
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Moves

They list both the English and Japanese names of the game's stuff accordingly, including translated meanings.

Many things were inaccurately/incorrectly translated in the official translation. Some examples:

The attack "Drain" is called "かきゅう / 火球" (Fire Orb) in the original, which makes sense since the move does look like like a fireball.

"Light Beam" is "虹色シャボン" (Rainbow-colored Soap/Bubble). Indeed the attack looks nothing like a light beam.

"Water Blast" is "水蒸気爆発" (Steam Explosion). When I played the game back then I always wondered why Czar/Kaiser Dragon (a fire monster) was using a water elemental move, and same for the Earth Crystal instead of the Water one. Sure, there's the kanji for water (水) in the Japanese word for steam, which is probably what threw Woolsey off, but still.

As for some items:

Energizer = ツヨクナール / 強くなる (Get Stronger)
Bracer = カタクナール / 硬くなる (Get Stiffer)
Power Blast = ミンナツヨクナール / みんな強くなる (Everyone Get Stronger)
Crystalline = ミンナカタクナール / みんな硬くなる (Everyone Get Stiffer)

The naming convention is simpler, more descriptive and consistent in Japanese. You can already tell what the items do from their names alone.

By the way, "Pure Water" is actually "せいすい" (Holy Water), which explains why it's effective against undead monsters. But it's understandable why the taboo word "holy" would get censored by NoA back then.

For some monsters:

"Axem Rangers" is "オノフォース" (Axe Force), which is the name of the rangers' battleship. After beating all of the 5, you actually fight the ship itself, not their combined forces.

Exor/Calibur's "Neosquid" is just its mouth (くち). It's inexplicable why Woolsey translated it that way.

There are many other examples of inaccuracies like those, and you can find more by looking at those lists. I think this should be enough to give you an idea, though.

Josephine Lithius

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
  • THE WORLD IS MINE!!
    • View Profile
    • Jo Li KMC @ Tumblr
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2021, 07:51:27 pm »
I'm just gonna add my two cents in here instead of writing a whole review.  And my two cents is… this "reworking" is really inconsistent and weird.  And that's just from playing up to the first star.

Some things got changed to their Japanese counterparts.  An example of this is the Frogog enemy in Bandit's Way.  Its original name was "Richard" (possibly a reference to The Frog for Whom the Bell Tolls, a Japanese RPG), so it's named "Richard" here.
Some things got a tune-up or redo on their name.  For example, "Kerokero Cola" was renamed "Croak-a-Cola" as a reference to Coca-Cola.  This was done because the Japanese name, "Kerokero Dorinku", is a reference to "Chero-Cola", the old name for Royal Crown (RC) Cola.
And then… there's a whole slew of things that were left completely alone for reasons I don't understand.  "Terrapin" instead of "Koopa Soldier" (or "Koopatrol" a'la Paper Mario?)?  "Spikey" instead of "Spike Trooper" or "Spiny"?  And most baffling of all… "Princess Toadstool" instead of "Princess Peach"?!  If you were gonna name-swap things to match the Japanese version, that one should've been first on your list!

I think I understand why this started life as a personal project just for yourself, CoolCatBomberMan. (… Cat Bomber?)  From an outsider's perspective, there's no real rhyme or reason to a lot of what was or wasn't changed.  It was vastly just a case of "I don't like it" or "this could use some work" – much the same as I did with the extremely unfinished Pokémon Gen I story revamp that I  injected into what was otherwise player character swap.  And that's fine.  I'm just really confused as to why the hack wasn't presented as such.

When the readme promises things like "Mistranslated monster/item names fixed", it tends to paint a particular type of picture…  Ya know?

Also…
Bracer = カタクナール / 硬くなる (Get Stiffer)
Crystalline = ミンナカタクナール / みんな硬くなる (Everyone Get Stiffer)
… *snicker*
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 07:58:49 pm by Josephine Lithius »

Cristal

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2021, 08:31:05 pm »
Also…… *snicker*

Spoiler:
"Get Harder / Everyone Get Harder" would be even more accurate.  :P

CoolCatBomberMan

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2021, 02:40:23 am »
I have a question: why keep the "?!" ? It wasn't like that in the Japanese script.

Also, you've forgot commas after 'Hey's and you put commas when it's not necessary 😂.

It just needs to be proof-read and some changes made. For example, with this:

"It's our first step towards taking[1] over this world![3] And if it weren't for nosey[1] characters like YOU...[2] We'd practically OWN the world!"

I changed it to: "It's our first step towards taking[1] over this world![3] And if it weren't for nosey[1] characters like YOU...[2] We'd practically OWN it!" I hope you understand why.

Lastly, about the "all right/alright" thing that is common in localising: Much like FF IX where they only use 'alright', SMRPG exclusively use 'all right'. Like I did with FF IX dialogue, I split the uses so 'alright' is used for interjections like, "Alright, let's go!", and 'all right' with confirming the well-being of someone ("Are you all right?", "I'm glad everyone is all right.")

I hope this helps if you ever do a revision.

Let me reiterate: I'm overhauling the project. Starting over from scratch, and widening the scope significantly. There is plenty of documentation on the Japanese script, and Tomato, who translated Mother 3, did a livestream of the game, pointing out differences in the JP text. As an example, let me show you how I relocalized the line you posted:

"And yet, wherever we go, there's[1] always some pretentious “hero”[1] like you showing up uninvited..."

What I'm experiencing so far with Woolsey's writing style is that he overemphasizes one minor detail, sacrificing another in the process. JP Exor never mentioned taking over the world in that specific line because he already did so in the previous line. By "trimming the fat," so to speak, I'm able to get more points across in a similar amount of space.

I'd like to point out some links that could be helpful for your project:

https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Characters
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Bosses
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Places
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Items
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Enemies
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Moves

They list both the English and Japanese names of the game's stuff accordingly, including translated meanings.

Well, that just makes things easier for me, particularly with organizing notes.

I'm just gonna add my two cents in here instead of writing a whole review.  And my two cents is… this "reworking" is really inconsistent and weird.  And that's just from playing up to the first star.

Some things got changed to their Japanese counterparts.  An example of this is the Frogog enemy in Bandit's Way.  Its original name was "Richard" (possibly a reference to The Frog for Whom the Bell Tolls, a Japanese RPG), so it's named "Richard" here.
Some things got a tune-up or redo on their name.  For example, "Kerokero Cola" was renamed "Croak-a-Cola" as a reference to Coca-Cola.  This was done because the Japanese name, "Kerokero Dorinku", is a reference to "Chero-Cola", the old name for Royal Crown (RC) Cola.
And then… there's a whole slew of things that were left completely alone for reasons I don't understand.  "Terrapin" instead of "Koopa Soldier" (or "Koopatrol" a'la Paper Mario?)?  "Spikey" instead of "Spike Trooper" or "Spiny"?  And most baffling of all… "Princess Toadstool" instead of "Princess Peach"?!  If you were gonna name-swap things to match the Japanese version, that one should've been first on your list!

I think I understand why this started life as a personal project just for yourself, CoolCatBomberMan. (… Cat Bomber?)  From an outsider's perspective, there's no real rhyme or reason to a lot of what was or wasn't changed.  It was vastly just a case of "I don't like it" or "this could use some work" – much the same as I did with the extremely unfinished Pokémon Gen I story revamp that I  injected into what was otherwise player character swap.  And that's fine.  I'm just really confused as to why the hack wasn't presented as such.

When the readme promises things like "Mistranslated monster/item names fixed", it tends to paint a particular type of picture…  Ya know?

Also…… *snicker*

I admit, I could've gone farther with the fixes. That's why I'm starting over. But you better believe I'm keeping "Croak-a-Cola." And for the "purists" out there, I'll have an optional patch that doesn't change any names, places, items, attacks or monsters.

EDIT: Cat Bomber is news to me. I was actually going for Top Cat.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2021, 02:46:15 am by CoolCatBomberMan »

Heaven Piercing Man

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
    • View Profile
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2021, 03:30:20 am »
I love you guys. Each day my rom collection is closer to being completely free of the curse of Woolsey. I have TRIED countless times to be okay with them, but each time I end up cringing at the "le random ebin maymay" style, the edgy oneliners, the verbal tics, the "creatively cliché liberties" with the naming conventions in the bestiary, moves, and items in both FF6 and SMRPG, and the legacy of countless "meme translators" who are now running the asylum in the anime dubbing industry. And the purists everywhere who can't shut up about "The Only True Canon Version of FF6" to newcomers or keep whining about Square Enix removing their precious ebin maymay edgy oneliners make my blood boil.

Finally a thread where I can vent. Best of luck to you.

sharksnack

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
    • View Profile
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2021, 06:34:51 am »
It's an interesting effort, but I think if you're going to throw shade at the original translation to this degree and claim to fix mistranslations, references, censorship, etc., you need to be able to actually read and understand the source material. Otherwise those claims are mostly bogus outside of whatever articles like legends of localization you're taking ideas from as a guide to what can be improved upon. It's essentially playing a game of telephone.

If it were presented as a "modern rewrite of Super Mario RPG" or something instead, you likely wouldn't receive as much criticism, and it'd be easier to enjoy it for what it is.

KobaBeach

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 31
  • bad smw asm hacker, bad programmer (he/they)
    • View Profile
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2021, 02:38:50 pm »
You act like there are not a plethora of resources out there that cannot assist in providing a more faithful translation.  You can also understand the meaning behind a language without understanding the actual language itself.  This helps when it comes to working with machine translations.
Okay, I'm gonna try to ask this as nice as I can but. Why are you taking machine translations as a guide? Like, I use them for quick translations of something I wish to read, but I always make a point of looking up on Jisho and whatnot to make sure of the proper meaning, because machine translations are, a lot of the times, inaccurate and untrustworthy. You cannot translate without knowing the source language. I'm sorry.

I love you guys. Each day my rom collection is closer to being completely free of the curse of Woolsey. I have TRIED countless times to be okay with them, but each time I end up cringing at the "le random ebin maymay" style, the edgy oneliners, the verbal tics, the "creatively cliché liberties" with the naming conventions in the bestiary, moves, and items in both FF6 and SMRPG, and the legacy of countless "meme translators" who are now running the asylum in the anime dubbing industry. And the purists everywhere who can't shut up about "The Only True Canon Version of FF6" to newcomers or keep whining about Square Enix removing their precious ebin maymay edgy oneliners make my blood boil.

Finally a thread where I can vent. Best of luck to you.
are you confusing him with ireland because most of the injokes and liberties woolsey gets usually like pass for normal dialogue or are taken in an invironment where there was barely any context given during translation while ireland is like naming tootsie pops by name

this entire post seems like the people who got mad at the gamergate joke in the prison school dub or whatever that bad anime was
respectful, bad retranslation attempts, sort of japanese practice. not patch sadly.

VicVergil

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 727
    • View Profile
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2021, 07:00:19 pm »
Okay, I'm gonna try to ask this as nice as I can but. Why are you taking machine translations as a guide? Like, I use them for quick translations of something I wish to read, but I always make a point of looking up on Jisho and whatnot to make sure of the proper meaning, because machine translations are, a lot of the times, inaccurate and untrustworthy. You cannot translate without knowing the source language. I'm sorry.
are you confusing him with ireland because most of the injokes and liberties woolsey gets usually like pass for normal dialogue or are taken in an invironment where there was barely any context given during translation while ireland is like naming tootsie pops by name

this entire post seems like the people who got mad at the gamergate joke in the prison school dub or whatever that bad anime was


The "joke" that was so bad Funimation redubbed it for the Blu-Ray reprint? Are you actually defending that kind of thing? That kind of undermines anything you said about translations before.
It's one thing for translators to use machine translations, have incomplete translations, incorrect interpretations, Engrish, because at least it was their honest best attempt held back by their incompetence. A lot of Woolsey lines fall under that (ROM size limitations, lack of context, censorship mandates, or just plain incompetence).
Even translators like Working Designs who inject shit pop culture can be not blamed too much because their hubris led to them thinking they are good game designers, brilliant and funny scriptwriters, or that it would sell the game more, even though it was generally the opposite (like their handling of Silhouette Mirage causing game reviewers back then to recommend importing the Japanese Saturn version instead, or getting more than a couple games held back for review...)

I have no such kind words to spare to a "translator" using someone else's work for their completely unrelated personal opinions or internet warring that unnecessarily dragged down an innocent work in internet drama and made it the focal focus why it's even remembered. It's not lost on me either that they don't hide their contempt for the audience (which they assume are part of the group they're exchanging blows and harassment with) and the work itself (that it's, in your words, a "shitty anime", and in their words, the original lines weren't worth jack shit and were elevated by something that doesn't amount much more than a twitter rant.)
Furthermore, it's spreading this internet drama even further for people who haven't heard of it.
This alone disqualifies the translator. If you hate what you're translating, and see enemies in all of your audience, then maybe you should do something else more worthwhile than the big budget equivalent of an internet troll throwing a line and then fishing for reactions.

Snack World was universally panned for following the Prison School and Mighty No. 9 school of "let's insert our angry twitter rants and ship them in the game to trigger the weebs!" even by people "on the same ideological side" as the translator. I don't GET why it's so hard to get that dragging your personal baggage and opinions completely alien to the game is such a cringe thing to do?

I am puzzled why you felt the need to present rejection to something that's far worse than anything Working Designs did so far, imply it's such a ridiculous notion (and not common sense for translation purists... unless you're implying you're willing to accuse them of more nefarious political affiliations?), and then ...

compare a critic of Woosley to that?!
What's the big idea here?
You're willing to shame people with implying political affiliations so that they stop talking about translation theory in ways you don't want? And yes Woolsey (later Squaresoft) could get as bad as Working Designs at times, like random Star Wars quotes that sound cool instead of whatever ideas the final boss/extra bosses had, or "Bruce Lee" in SMRPG. It's perfectly valid to ask for better translations for games he touched, including but not limited to Breath of Fire 1, Final Fantasy 6, Chrono Trigger, and more.

tc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1212
  • Lum Fan
    • View Profile
    • Eon Blog
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2021, 12:40:51 am »
Simple. I don't care about the translator's pop culture interests, political ideologies, or any of that.
If one wants to make a spoof translation, make one. A credible project should never be a soapbox.

Red Soul

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
    • Dynamic Designs
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2021, 12:54:33 am »
Simple. I don't care about the translator's pop culture interests, political ideologies, or any of that.
If one wants to make a spoof translation, make one. A credible project should never be a soapbox.

Agreed. Having silly inserts or personal opinions within a script that has no room for such things both feels and reads infantile at best, tendencious at worst.

Bonesy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Dog is God, God is Dog
    • View Profile
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2021, 02:00:36 am »
don't like a project? make your own or ignore it

tc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1212
  • Lum Fan
    • View Profile
    • Eon Blog
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2021, 01:24:56 am »
That's not to say you should dismiss your audience. Japanese idioms lost on English speakers will only rub off as awkward.

gamingcat02261991

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2021, 04:59:54 am »
To be truthful, despite Woolsey's constant errors regarding things like enemy names and the name of one location in the game, I preferred the original game prior to this hack's release, especially since it was the last known game where Peach went by her English name, Princess Toadstool, before Super Mario 64 gave her a combination of her English and Japanese names until the English name was ditched for all of her future appearances. And the author's comment about changing cringe-inducing puns in the hack's description kind of reminds me of issues of Nintendo Power after switching over to Future US where Sonic was quoted by the writers as making "groan-inducing puns" in his games, even though one of the drawbacks was their criticism of Big the Cat due to his size and laid-back way of talking. Oh, and CoolCatBomberMan, even though you thought uploading this ROM Hack was a mistake and wanted it deleted, it actually was a good idea.

Heaven Piercing Man

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
    • View Profile
Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2021, 04:47:26 am »
are you confusing him with ireland because most of the injokes and liberties woolsey gets usually like pass for normal dialogue or are taken in an invironment where there was barely any context given during translation while ireland is like naming tootsie pops by name

this entire post seems like the people who got mad at the gamergate joke in the prison school dub or whatever that bad anime was

I've never played a Wrecking Designs game and thank God for that.