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Author Topic: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing  (Read 4479 times)

Idkbutlike2

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2021, 08:48:07 pm »
Wild Arms, Grandia, Xenogears, and many others come to mind.

EvilJagaGenius

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Re: PSA: Stop making FF6 script edits
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2021, 09:26:08 pm »
To be terribly cynical, I intend on playing the GBA port first because I love my little GBA and there's a more manageable pile of hacks for it.  Notably only one script hack and it looks well-recommended.  I haven't played FF6 yet so I can't comment too much but I wonder why everyone wants to tweak it.

...I spoke too soon.  http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5867/
I don't feel like patching up another ROM and comparing the two though.

(quoting Hemlock on MMBN)

There's a bugfix patch that does deal with some of 4's worst problems (leg's go!) but I agree that there's some serious quality issues in general that need to be dealt with.

There's also a translation for the japanese version of 6 due to the large amount of cut content that never made it overseas, might be worth looking into, espeically since mGBA has e-reader and gate support now: https://forums.therockmanexezone.com/rockman-exe6-english-patches-t5507.html

Thank you for the link!  I remembered there were patches like that but for the life of me I couldn't track them down.  MMBN's my favorite version of Mega Man.

Hemlock

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2021, 08:39:07 am »
Wild Arms, Grandia, Xenogears, and many others come to mind.
There's a bunch of fixes for Xenogears, but no retranslation effort. If someone does the work in retranslating Xenogears, maybe those patches could be added in as options. There's also an undub patch for Grandia, but nothing else. No such luck for Wild Arms.

hairy_hen

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2021, 05:30:02 pm »
Hmm... I definitely ran afoul of this when I first posted my version.  More than one person told me I'd wasted my time (and by extension, theirs) by making it in the first place, and there was also a sense I might have been stepping on the toes of people who had already made similar projects, either because I was 'stealing their thunder' so to speak, or somehow implying their versions weren't good enough.  It's also been remarked several times that the existence of multiple versions creates needless confusion for potential players, who can't easily tell which one they ought to use because it's hard to really understand what the differences are between them.

It was, of course, never my intention to make any such implications, nor to contribute to any of these difficulties.  At the time I started working on it (just over two years ago now), I had only played FF6 once, and knew almost nothing about its script issues or what other people's opinions on them were.  But the Legends of Localization series on the subject interested me so much, and shocked me so thoroughly with the sheer number of translation errors it pointed out, that I knew I had to do something about it, because I could tell I'd never really be able to lose myself in that world again knowing how heavily flawed the SNES script really was.  For various reasons I decided to do it myself, rather than waiting around for someone else to do it.  The GBA script is of course much more accurate, but I didn't consider that an option because I only ever wanted to play it on a real Super Nintendo.

For a long time I was primarily concerned with creating the version I wanted to play myself, and for months I devoted nearly every moment of my free time to it.  It wasn't until I was nearly finished editing the script that I began to seriously consider the idea of publicly releasing it.  I was certain there had to be other people out there who would be at least somewhat interested in what I'd done, and I'd put enough effort into it to be confident that, at the very least, the result wasn't total crap. ;)  But being aware of the public relations difficulties I could be facing from long-time fans, I was pretty hesitant to put it out there, and to wade into an unfamiliar community in general.

Anyway, all of that is to say I certainly understand any frustrations I may have contributed to, though I hope they can be overlooked.  I'm not sure if it's even possible for there to be one 'definitive' version of this game, given its history — while my project achieved what it set out to do, providing an improved translation for the SNES which conveys all the story information previously omitted or distorted, and representing the work of the Japanese writers without going to the point of being irritatingly literal, I wouldn't expect everyone else to view it the same way I do.

As far as what FF6 actually needs at this point, it could definitely use some work on rebalancing the difficulty, so that the player's abilities are not so absurdly overpowered as to stomp all over the enemies without effort.  I have some ideas on that, and have been thinking of starting a new project devoted to it.  I'll probably make a thread for it in due course, once I've had a chance to get organized on what I want to do with it.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 05:58:06 pm by hairy_hen »

Piotyr

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2021, 07:03:38 pm »
Hairy hen I want you to know you made my favorite version!

Spooniest

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2021, 02:25:52 pm »
@hairy_hen, I enjoyed ROSE, for what it's worth.

But it just seems like further toying around with FF6 has become something of a romhacking cliche by this point. It's like Surf Music, in a way... It doesn't feel like anything new can be done with it.
Yamero~~!

hairy_hen

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2021, 06:56:23 pm »
No worries.  Given that I've still only played the game twice, it doesn't feel stale or worn out to me the way it could to others, but I definitely understand the feeling of pointless proliferation.  In general I only look at or think about altered versions of any games if I really like the original release, but there's some significant flaw that gets in the way of my enjoyment of it.  For FF6, the translation errors and the difficulty balance issues made me feel it was worth trying to address them, but I'm not necessarily inclined to look at most other changes.

Undoubtedly there are many other games out there in more need of script revision (or other fixes) at this point.

Hairy hen I want you to know you made my favorite version!

Thank you. :)

MysticLord

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2021, 08:41:36 pm »
There are a ton of mature tools for hacking Final Fantasy Tactics, and both it's PS1 and PSP localizations have issues. Why not have flame wars over competing translations of that?

DrakeDarkHunter

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2021, 09:57:49 pm »
The Legend of Heroes: Ghargav trilogy games on PSP had pretty "meh" translations. They could use some work.

Chronosplit

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2021, 10:38:23 pm »
There are a ton of mature tools for hacking Final Fantasy Tactics, and both it's PS1 and PSP localizations have issues. Why not have flame wars over competing translations of that?
I think the answer to that is the same as for the original Shining Force. SRPGs aren't valued as much for the plot as they are for gameplay compared to other RPGs, so you see more gameplay centered hacks for them both.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 10:06:17 pm by Chronosplit »

MysticLord

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2021, 09:45:08 pm »
I think the answer to that is the same as for the original Shining Force. SRPGs aren't valued as much for the plot as they are for gameplay compared to other RPGs, so you see more gameplay centered hacks for them both.
Very true.

There are a couple of projects to port the JP-only and PSP stuff to the PS1 version, and various attempts to port the PSP script to the PS1 version, but I don't think anyone has tried an actual retranslation.

VicVergil

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2021, 11:02:23 am »
Stealth translation request topic? I thought these were done on datacrystal, not here.
And not to be a kill joy, but there's a very good reason for that: You don't get to tell someone else on the internet what to do with his/her spare time.

If this person was that passionate about retranslating, say Final Fantasy VI and for the 12th time like you said, that doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that by denying this 12th hack, this person will then inevitably work on YOUR favorite, "more worthwhile" game. This passion won't simply be "redirected" elsewhere, because it's tied to this specific game.

Even for other languages (French) multiple translations exist for Final Fantasy VI for a wide array of reasons: one is a truncated early 2000s translation from the Woosley script, one is a direct port of the official GBA script, one is retranslated manually from the Japanese script, one is based on the Japanese script, and that's only retranslations not rewrites (relocalizations, etc...) yet.

I'd like to know what's this romhack limit on how many romhacks for a single game is too much. You do know that most Squaresoft games on the SNES received ugly menu patches with heavily truncated text and huge fixed width fonts, right? No less than a handful for each game. Der Langrisser even had a Babelfish translation. Should these have been ticked off as "complete" and "off-limits" for new translators/writers? If the reason is "FF6 is in a good enough situation right now", up to whom is the definition of "good enough"?

Some more food for thought: You edited the title to "other games are more worthwhile", but why invalidate others' preferences while preaching for your own? It leaves a very bad taste in the mouth...

Piotyr

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2021, 01:02:46 pm »
Stealth translation request topic? I thought these were done on datacrystal, not here.
And not to be a kill joy, but there's a very good reason for that: You don't get to tell someone else on the internet what to do with his/her spare time.

If this person was that passionate about retranslating, say Final Fantasy VI and for the 12th time like you said, that doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that by denying this 12th hack, this person will then inevitably work on YOUR favorite, "more worthwhile" game. This passion won't simply be "redirected" elsewhere, because it's tied to this specific game.

Even for other languages (French) multiple translations exist for Final Fantasy VI for a wide array of reasons: one is a truncated early 2000s translation from the Woosley script, one is a direct port of the official GBA script, one is retranslated manually from the Japanese script, one is based on the Japanese script, and that's only retranslations not rewrites (relocalizations, etc...) yet.

I'd like to know what's this romhack limit on how many romhacks for a single game is too much. You do know that most Squaresoft games on the SNES received ugly menu patches with heavily truncated text and huge fixed width fonts, right? No less than a handful for each game. Der Langrisser even had a Babelfish translation. Should these have been ticked off as "complete" and "off-limits" for new translators/writers? If the reason is "FF6 is in a good enough situation right now", up to whom is the definition of "good enough"?

Some more food for thought: You edited the title to "other games are more worthwhile", but why invalidate others' preferences while preaching for your own? It leaves a very bad taste in the mouth...
I feel the same way about the original topic title I just figured this is a bit less insulting when I suggested the topic change. At least this one can be ignored without getting insulted.

Spooniest

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2021, 01:41:46 pm »
If someone is entitled to as many revisions of FF6 as they deem fit, it stands to reason that I'm as entitled to my opinion on it, Vic.

Y'know, I wonder myself, could a snazzy new translation of Beyond the Beyond make it worth a playthru? It is kind of mediocre in so many other areas, but from what little I can remember, the script itself was especially dodgy.
Yamero~~!

Idkbutlike2

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2021, 07:01:54 pm »
The Legend of Heroes: Ghargav trilogy games on PSP had pretty "meh" translations. They could use some work.

I'd rather have people work on translations of the PC versions. The PSP remakes are kind of bad games by comparison.

[Unknown]

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2021, 01:06:48 am »
Y'know, I wonder myself, could a snazzy new translation of Beyond the Beyond make it worth a playthru? It is kind of mediocre in so many other areas, but from what little I can remember, the script itself was especially dodgy.

A retranslation or rewrite of any game can make it better or more worthwhile.  Whether it will be sufficiently so is a separate question, and whether anyone will be interested enough to bother is yet another.

Which is really true of any hack, improvement, remaster, etc.  In 25 years or something, maybe there will be "redubs" of games, with the voices made (using AI) to better match the original Japanese tone, pitch, and tempo.  Maybe FFX will have a dozen such redubs, some completely missing the point of the intentionally fake laughter and "fixing" it, and some not.  And someone may ask then, do we need any more FFX redubs?

But it doesn't matter what people need, it just matters what people want to make and what enough people are interested in looking at.  Fan translations and retranslations are, after all, closer to art.  It's ultimately all homage to the source material.

I'd rather have people work on translations of the PC versions. The PSP remakes are kind of bad games by comparison.

Heh, if there was someone actually willing to retranslate the text for the PSP versions from Japanese, I could probably be convinced to do the hacking to get it in - even if they are the simplified versions.  The Windows versions possibly not, since I haven't spent much of the last 8 years making an emulator and debugger for Windows games, after all.

I'd certainly buy a Windows translation if it was released though.  Doubt that'll happen though...

But like I said, it's just about who's interested in what.  For some, another retranslation just means another excuse to replay the game.  Nothing wrong about that.

-[Unknown]

MysticLord

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2021, 03:29:31 am »
Quote
-- deleted --
You mean that one goofball who half-arsed a non-functioning mod clumsily pasted on top of one of the existing mods? Or are there slapfights over inclusion of Japanese honorifics like we see in other very amusing translations?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 01:58:03 am by MathOnNapkins »

tc

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2021, 04:53:57 am »
Isn't the PS1 FFT translation only fondly remembered because of its sheer bumbling idiocy?

MysticLord

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2021, 06:02:47 am »
Isn't the PS1 FFT translation only fondly remembered because of its sheer bumbling idiocy?
You're not wrong, but you could be talking about most JRPGs from the 1990s.

Hemlock

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Re: PSA: Some games actually *need* script editing
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2021, 09:42:50 pm »
You're not wrong, but you could be talking about most JRPGs from the 1990s.
FF4 SNES's translation was so god awful that the translator got fired and Ted Woolsey had to be hired.