News: 11 March 2016 - Forum Rules
Current Moderators - DarkSol, KingMike, MathOnNapkins, Azkadellia, Danke

Author Topic: Save States Discussion  (Read 1447 times)

Supergamerguy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
  • Retro game fanatic; loves platformers, hates jrpgs
    • View Profile
Save States Discussion
« on: August 07, 2020, 10:15:34 pm »
Hey guys, just wanted to hear your guys' thoughts about save states, like where would you use them (or not at all), what generation of consoles would you draw the line at and why, when does a save state become a cheat and where does it become a lifesaver?

My opinion is that save states are of upmost importance in many games, especially those with little to no in game save features or games that are impossible to beat/would require many hours to become good enough at it to beat it.

I use save states all the time, as I am not an amazing gamer, but have a massive passion for playing retro games! I would love to play as many retro games as possible before I just can't play them anymore, and I don't want to either put in tens of hours just to beat something as "basic" as platformers like Mega Man or Castlevania, and save states have given me the chance to appreciate series like those much more than if I were trying to play through them on original hardware or something (Mega Man and Castlevania are 1st and 3rd on my favorite series of all time, respectively). I also only have a few hours at a time (at most) to play many games throughout the week, so the ability to come right back to a place I left off at is invaluable to my schedule.

I know that many others will say that the point of playing games is to master their techniques and "get gud" enough at them to accomplish all of their challenges, but I don't know if I can completely agree with that. I think a game is all about the experience you have playing it and and fun you can gain from completing it all the way through. If I have to redo the same section of a game over and over because of a few dumb mistakes or an extreme difficulty (I'm looking at you stage 6-3 of Ninja Gaiden, well....actually the whole game after level 3  ;)), my happiness with the game diminishes quickly and my frustration just seems to grow. I tend to have more patience when I'm not subjected to the sometimes extreme frustration of retro games when you're dealing with older hardware and its capabilities.......

Welp, what are your thoughts? I'd love to hear some other perspectives from people who also love retro games as much as I do. :laugh:
Dah-nuh-nuh-nah! Super fighting robot! Dah-nuh-nah-nah! MEGA MAN! Fighting.......to save.......the world!!!!!

Isao Kronos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1304
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2020, 10:54:25 pm »
save states good

Supergamerguy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
  • Retro game fanatic; loves platformers, hates jrpgs
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2020, 11:01:40 pm »
Dah-nuh-nuh-nah! Super fighting robot! Dah-nuh-nah-nah! MEGA MAN! Fighting.......to save.......the world!!!!!

Jorpho

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4543
  • The cat screams with the voice of a man.
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2020, 02:24:47 am »
If I have to redo the same section of a game over and over because of a few dumb mistakes or an extreme difficulty (I'm looking at you stage 6-3 of Ninja Gaiden, well....actually the whole game after level 3  ;)), my happiness with the game diminishes quickly and my frustration just seems to grow.
Isn't that the bit where the trick is to scroll one of the enemies of the screen so it despawns? And it's something you would never think to do unless you read a guide or watched someone else do it?  Because that's just bad game design.  Why would you want to waste your precious time playing a badly-designed game?
This signature is an illusion and is a trap devised by Satan. Go ahead dauntlessly! Make rapid progres!

FAST6191

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2896
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2020, 03:38:01 am »
If save states (or cheats, or hacks in general) are ruining your fun then you are doing it wrong -- hacks, cheats and emulator features are awesome if done right. My screen, my rules. My life, my choice how to do things within it.

I don't consider emulators in and of themselves to be cheating (even with the likes of https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator/ in play/raising doubts) and theoretically you could use a savestate as a stand in for a save. Anything that departs from the original creator's vision on the hardware in question and presumably official accessories/equivalents (obligatory reminder that the NES Advantage is a thing) would put you in the realm of cheating, however the vision of the game creators is nothing I am at all inclined to respect and actively encourage others to adopt that position with this site we are on now attesting to games being anything other than fixed in stone and handed down from on high. Might make it tricky to compare playing a game with others but so can any number of factors so eh.

PresidentLeever

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 751
    • View Profile
    • Mini-Revver
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2020, 07:21:31 am »
"like where would you use them (or not at all)"
I try to limit it to once per level/area and when I simply have to go for whatever reason. This is because I've noticed myself missing things about the mechanics and my skills at a game not improving as much if I overuse them. If a game kinda sucks I might still do it though.


"what generation of consoles would you draw the line at and why"
I wouldn't draw such a line.


"when does a save state become a cheat and where does it become a lifesaver?"
It's always a cheat (unless used as a quick save and you delete it after reloading) since it wasn't intended and makes the game easier. The only other exception I can think of rn would be a game with passwords only.

I love save states. They helped me get into a lot of harder games that I would've just skipped otherwise, like most shoot 'em ups, and of course using them as a quick save is basically a must for some games.


I would say though, reading your post, that you're not enjoying the original games unless you only use the save states to train. You are enjoying the games with save states.

"and fun you can gain from completing it all the way through"
The thing is, you aren't doing that if you use save states. Which is completely fine, but you are kind of bullshitting yourself when saying that.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 07:33:08 am by PresidentLeever »
Mini-reviews, retro sound chip tribute, romhacks and general listage at my site: Mini-Revver.

Supergamerguy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
  • Retro game fanatic; loves platformers, hates jrpgs
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2020, 07:56:47 am »
Isn't that the bit where the trick is to scroll one of the enemies of the screen so it despawns? And it's something you would never think to do unless you read a guide or watched someone else do it?  Because that's just bad game design.  Why would you want to waste your precious time playing a badly-designed game?

Yeah, there are several moments like that in game in the normal levels alone, not to mention all of the crap in the final one OR the almost impossible final boss. I got to the final boss and couldn't get past its second form for over a year, so I eventually resorted to a no damage hack to see the ending. The game is actually pretty fun when you don't have to worry about the difficulty. ;)
Dah-nuh-nuh-nah! Super fighting robot! Dah-nuh-nah-nah! MEGA MAN! Fighting.......to save.......the world!!!!!

Spooniest

  • RHDN Patreon Supporter!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3261
  • Ain't got no berf cer-fi-ti-cate on me now
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2020, 01:27:09 pm »
I usually use save states either in games where there is not a save function baked in, or when I'm playing a game that does have a save function but it is limited (Final Fantasy's save points, for example).

If I'm playing a game where there is no save or a password system that would take time to take advantage of, or a game where I can't immediately get to a save point, and something comes up that will force me to stop playing, I save state, shut off the game, go do my things, then come back where I left off.

I admit there are certain points in certain games where I feel compelled to save state, just in case I get completely shitstomped, but those are the fewer-and-farther-between use cases for me. Not only did I grow up on the NES and already have a lot of these games mastered, but I don't like the idea of save scumming my way past a hard part... I get a kick out of beating it 'the normal way,' somehow.

Just farming endorphins like a good lil' gamer.

I do try not to use save states on anything CD-based, though, because the game state is not read from the disc the same way as it would be for a cartridge, and some several emulators over the years have had problems with that (particularly ones that will run files that are either cartridge-derived or CD-derived, PCE-CD, Sega CD, et al).
I never wanted to work in a pet shop, you know. I wanted to be...a lumberjack.

Leviathan Mist

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 61
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2020, 10:05:40 pm »
Hey guys, just wanted to hear your guys' thoughts about save states, like where would you use them (or not at all), what generation of consoles would you draw the line at and why, when does a save state become a cheat and where does it become a lifesaver?

My opinion is that save states are of upmost importance in many games, especially those with little to no in game save features or games that are impossible to beat/would require many hours to become good enough at it to beat it.

I use save states all the time, as I am not an amazing gamer, but have a massive passion for playing retro games! I would love to play as many retro games as possible before I just can't play them anymore, and I don't want to either put in tens of hours just to beat something as "basic" as platformers like Mega Man or Castlevania, and save states have given me the chance to appreciate series like those much more than if I were trying to play through them on original hardware or something (Mega Man and Castlevania are 1st and 3rd on my favorite series of all time, respectively). I also only have a few hours at a time (at most) to play many games throughout the week, so the ability to come right back to a place I left off at is invaluable to my schedule.

I know that many others will say that the point of playing games is to master their techniques and "get gud" enough at them to accomplish all of their challenges, but I don't know if I can completely agree with that. I think a game is all about the experience you have playing it and and fun you can gain from completing it all the way through. If I have to redo the same section of a game over and over because of a few dumb mistakes or an extreme difficulty (I'm looking at you stage 6-3 of Ninja Gaiden, well....actually the whole game after level 3  ;)), my happiness with the game diminishes quickly and my frustration just seems to grow. I tend to have more patience when I'm not subjected to the sometimes extreme frustration of retro games when you're dealing with older hardware and its capabilities.......

Welp, what are your thoughts? I'd love to hear some other perspectives from people who also love retro games as much as I do. :laugh:

If you're looking for validation here, you don't need it. Unless you're going for a high score on Twin Galaxies or a speedrun record or something, the only question you should be asking yourself is "Am I having fun?". If the answer is "yes" with savestates, but "no" without, then use savestates. Everyone plays games for different reasons, and everyone has their own idea of what makes a game fun or not.

Euyira

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 14
  • I am not nice. :|
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2020, 11:40:38 pm »
Savestates have benefits like mentioned by others. They're more harmful when overused (no-hit, no-death, no-mistake ocd syndrome), especially during newbie playthroughs. But understandable regardless when game is no longer fun to play for whatever reason.

But if I become very dependent on savestate to pass a difficult section for game I'm interested in finishing, then I'd rather create my own cheat (infinite tries, triple health, nerfed enemy, whatever) and try again. If I still can't do it, try again days later. If still fail, get help and make better cheat. If that can't do it, then save-cheat past obstacle.


Mastery of game is zero value to me unless I *really* enjoy the gameplay (no guides, no cheats, no help). Discardable loadstate to 1-time resume play is always acceptable; I'm unlikely to finish something in one sitting anyway.

We have luxury of choice today and that is an important priority. Besides, I can revisit a game later-later if it's appealing to me to try again.

tc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1173
  • Lum Fan
    • View Profile
    • Eon Blog
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2020, 05:34:30 am »
A conventionally released game for modern platforms should never "need" save states. You spent money on a game, you've got the reasonable consumer expectation to be able to experience most of what it has to offer. We're well past the age where hardware was too limited to provide a substantial tutorial, map system, or other assistance.

Retro and indie games have different rules.

PresidentLeever

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 751
    • View Profile
    • Mini-Revver
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2020, 08:08:50 am »
Why would indie games have different rules? It's not hard to just slap a stat-based easy mode onto something or listen to feedback.

Mini-reviews, retro sound chip tribute, romhacks and general listage at my site: Mini-Revver.

Supergamerguy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
  • Retro game fanatic; loves platformers, hates jrpgs
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2020, 08:36:13 am »
Why would indie games have different rules? It's not hard to just slap a stat-based easy mode onto something or listen to feedback.

Very true
Dah-nuh-nuh-nah! Super fighting robot! Dah-nuh-nah-nah! MEGA MAN! Fighting.......to save.......the world!!!!!

FAST6191

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2896
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2020, 08:39:17 am »
I don't know that you do have that expectation, or at least a lawsuit to that end would be even more ridiculous to me than the Mass Effect ending stuff as would a boycott or a petition.

If someone wants to review it like that then fair enough, no different than reviewing something to see how many swears or how aligning with their religion it might be there.
As a "rule" of game design a la the first level should be a tutorial, do the first two levels last... don't think I can get there either. I can see it being good practice in a lot of things, and I would never consider it a bad thing to allow opportunities for people to experience other types of play (though there are bad ways of doing that, see also even the "good" trophments in games).

Also who might have that expectation? Veteran general game players, new to games people, disabled people (never mind the gamut that such a thing runs), general game players?

Likewise was it limited hardware or some kind of artificial difficulty (though some might say value extraction)/bleedover from arcades (see the "no reason to have a lives system" debate).


thr

  • RHDN Patreon Supporter!
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 295
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2020, 08:41:41 am »
Why would indie games have different rules? It's not hard to just slap a stat-based easy mode onto something or listen to feedback.
indie devs often don't have the obligation to appeal to the lowest common denominator, don't have to care about barriers of entry and such, so they can freely choose to cater to the needs of the few, including the masochists, the retro junkies, etc.
and believe it or not, there are still people who enjoy incessant grinding, or repeating the same lengthy, back-breaking sequence of actions millions of times to achive perfection in their execution.

people have different tastes and needs, so the things you consider essential to constitute a 'good' game might be a hindrance to others. so indies are simply more likely to fill some kind of a niche, while big studios are barred from publishing anything that their business departments would consider unprofitable.
when it comes to indies, there are little or no rules set in stone, and there's no place for assumptions or specific expectations here, for better or for worse. and rightly so.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2020, 10:05:43 am by thr »

Supergamerguy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
  • Retro game fanatic; loves platformers, hates jrpgs
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2020, 10:16:16 am »
indie devs often don't have the obligation to appeal to the lowest common denominator, don't have to care about barriers of entry and such, so they can freely choose to cater to the needs of the few, including the masochists, the retro junkies, etc.
and believe it or not, there are still people who enjoy incessant grinding, or repeating the same lengthy, back-breaking sequence of actions millions of times to achive perfection in their execution.

people have different tastes and needs, so the things you consider essential to constitute a 'good' game might be a hindrance to others. so indies are simply more likely to fill some kind of a niche, while big studios are barred from publishing anything that their business departments would consider unprofitable.
when it comes to indies, there are little or no rules set in stone, and there's no place for assumptions or specific expectations here, for better or for worse. and rightly so.

Shovel Knight is the perfect balance between these two philosophies. The game(s) can be very hard at times, but the automatic save feature, the checkpoint situation (where you can break the checkpoint to get more gold or keep it to respawn there), and the lack of lives, instead punishing death with a potential (but not set in stone) loss of currency. I love all 4 of the Treasure Trove games for that reason, they're my favorite indie and "modern" games ever! :laugh:
Dah-nuh-nuh-nah! Super fighting robot! Dah-nuh-nah-nah! MEGA MAN! Fighting.......to save.......the world!!!!!

blipform

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2020, 10:17:16 am »
I think savestate = lowers game difficulty = cheat. Even for 1-time use ones because sometimes you're meant to suffer playing the entire thing without turning off. If you're a competitive gamer or train like an olympic athlete, shame on you for using any cheat.

Otherwise I'm okay with it. If you need training wheels, use them. When you don't, good for you.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2020, 03:13:28 pm by blipform »

diablo666

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2020, 11:56:46 am »
 :-\ Probably now from me, as from an ordinary player, it will be strange to listen (read) my comment. However, there is something to say. I used to like many probably used SAVESTATE for a reason: "The game is unknown to me", "Here is a difficult place", "Difficult game", "Simplify life in the game". I, personally, did not suspect this for a long time and played - as in an ordinary console... ( >:D Now I FEEL I will be judged, because the DЕNDY). But I accidentally pressed the button, and began to use it only in those moments when it was either difficult for me, or to postpone the game for later, so scudem, with fresh forces.

Аt  the moment (2020), I can only use SAVESTATE only in dishonest games, or in difficult places (because to study it better, because you gain experience in games), or... RPG... I do not like them, and I want to pass them faster, despite the fact that it is wrong. SaveState is not bad if you don't abuse it. If it is not fair to play, then you will not gain experience. I play on SEGA, NES, SNES emulators, GBA console series... and PS1. While modest, but I try to play as intended.


To put it briefly: SaveState-use for difficult places, for training. It is good, if you do not abuse this function :angel:

Spooniest

  • RHDN Patreon Supporter!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3261
  • Ain't got no berf cer-fi-ti-cate on me now
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2020, 12:39:51 pm »
( >:D Now I FEEL I will be judged, because the DЕNDY)

You're more likely to be judged for not understanding versioning or liking MacOS around here, than for being Russian or playing on a Dendy.  ::)

Quote from: Claude McKay
I would go back to darkness and to peace,
But the great western world holds me in fee,
And I may never hope for full release
While to its alien gods I bend my knee.

I'd go back to where my ancestors are from if I could (Ireland)
I never wanted to work in a pet shop, you know. I wanted to be...a lumberjack.

KingMike

  • Forum Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7003
  • *sigh* A changed avatar. Big deal.
    • View Profile
Re: Save States Discussion
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2020, 12:05:01 am »
Isn't that the bit where the trick is to scroll one of the enemies of the screen so it despawns? And it's something you would never think to do unless you read a guide or watched someone else do it?  Because that's just bad game design.  Why would you want to waste your precious time playing a badly-designed game?

I think the Ninja Gaiden developers answered that before, kind of.
They expected players to actually use the power-ups encountered, and thought they had created an okay difficulty game.
Only later they learned players weren't played it like they designed, and having trouble.

I can see how that can happen sometimes with game developers, they test it out knowing how to do the things the "right" way that they may forget to try out how playing it "wrong" works.
Or... Battletoads. The devs probably get so good at their game that they continue to make it challenging FOR THEM. (apparently they only in recent years found that they had a ROM still of an unreleased game Super Battletoads for Game Boy, where it is said the difficulty got out of control as the devs started continually modding it to kind of troll each other.)
"My watch says 30 chickens" Google, 2018