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Author Topic: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project  (Read 20984 times)

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #100 on: December 02, 2020, 10:45:29 am »
Great to have Dr. Tasoenai here!

You deserve a beer for this!  :beer:

Life's too short for beer.  I drink whiskey.  :laugh:

V1.6 is up.

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #101 on: December 02, 2020, 10:42:46 pm »

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #102 on: December 04, 2020, 05:11:38 am »
Update. While playing through I've found to errors in the script that need correction. The first is in SouthTown and involved the secret code to access the sewer. The code is functionally "634", but the script for the old woman states it a 643 "Ma-su-shi". The next is in Northtown as you come out of the sewer. The room after meeting Krissie as a woman who talks about Thanatos and "Fanha" talking. But as this rework of the translation Fanha is now Pamela. Or am I mistaken?

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #103 on: December 04, 2020, 05:30:38 am »
Update. While playing through I've found to errors in the script that need correction. The first is in SouthTown and involved the secret code to access the sewer. The code is functionally "634", but the script for the old woman states it a 643 "Ma-su-shi". The next is in Northtown as you come out of the sewer. The room after meeting Krissie as a woman who talks about Thanatos and "Fanha" talking. But as this rework of the translation Fanha is now Pamela. Or am I mistaken?

The first line is explained in the commentary, but in the game, she's saying that's why she chose 634, not that the password isn't 634.

Fanha is Fanha.  Phanna is Pamela. 

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #104 on: December 04, 2020, 05:45:57 am »
Fanha is Fanha.  Phanna is Pamela.
Saw that a few moments ago.

CVReynolds

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #105 on: January 07, 2021, 03:49:40 pm »
Hello. The below line will need fixing unless you already have done so. My apologies if you already have.

Spoiler:
1665:

...he's gone already. He
vanished! I still hadn't
said goodbye...

It uses "he's" instead of Popoie's usual "they're".

While I'm at it, thanks much for such a great new translation, project authors. :3

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #106 on: January 07, 2021, 04:27:41 pm »
Hello. The below line will need fixing unless you already have done so. My apologies if you already have.

Spoiler:
1665:

...he's gone already. He
vanished! I still hadn't
said goodbye...

It uses "he's" instead of Popoie's usual "they're".

While I'm at it, thanks much for such a great new translation, project authors. :3

There's a long explanation of this in the commentary (I'd recommend the latest version, 1.8 ), but the tl;dr is that we used both they and he at different points because it's hopelessly complex and after much consulting, everyone thought that was the best route. Out of everything in the project, this was the one translation/script issue that had the most contributors---probably six or seven folks? :o  I ended up editing the commentary down to the essential stuff in the latest release, though hardly any of those ideas came from me.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 05:13:56 pm by ManaRedux »

CVReynolds

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #107 on: January 08, 2021, 12:17:16 am »
There's a long explanation of this in the commentary (I'd recommend the latest version, 1.8 ), but the tl;dr is that we used both they and he at different points because it's hopelessly complex and after much consulting, everyone thought that was the best route. Out of everything in the project, this was the one translation/script issue that had the most contributors---probably six or seven folks? :o  I ended up editing the commentary down to the essential stuff in the latest release, though hardly any of those ideas came from me.

Hello again. The spot I cited was the only spot in the script where I saw Popoie gendered as "he" because I had skipped Popoie's intro before (my apologies). Popoie's intro also uses male pronouns for the character four times for a grand total of five uses of male pronouns for Popoie in the project script. The Japanese doesn't seem to use a gender in any of those situations, though. So count me in as one who disagrees with this decision, whether I'm the only one or not. It's inconsistent with the rest of the script and the source. I also think the sprite's gender ambiguity is part of the character. Finally, if I remember correctly, Popoie is referred to with male pronouns three times across Ted Woolsey's script (twice in Popoie's intro and once in a mid-game text). But it likely wasn't intentionally done.
Spoiler:
And it wasn't done during a spot as impactful as the ending or come from the mouth of a character as important as Randi.
The remake seems to always keep the character neutral in pronouns.

Thanks for reading.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #108 on: January 08, 2021, 02:12:25 am »
I don't have the numbers memorized, but it was roughly the same for both.  One occurrence of they is in an uncommon line.

Quote
The Japanese doesn't seem to use a gender in any of those situations, though.

I'll try to be the messenger here as I left this to folks who know far more than I do about this stuff.

Whatever Japanese pronoun is used for Popoie has been interpreted as genderless, but the same pronoun was used for other characters who aren't genderless.  It doesn't always translate to a singular "they" in English.

In the first and second person, there are words that usually imply maleness. 

Our main translator and both Japanese people on the project suggested exclusively using "he" based on that and other things.  In fact, the translation that this script is based on used he without any reserve.  Skipping way ahead, we ended up using both.

Quote
I also think the sprite's gender ambiguity is part of the character.

As our translator noted in a very long Discord chat, the mystery actually comes from the question, what is Popoie in terms of biological basis, and not so much gender expression.  We know that Randi's a human male, Purim's a human female, but Popoie is      ?  Some kind of noncorporeal mana spirit?

Quote
The remake seems to always keep the character neutral in pronouns.

AFAIK, this is what set the precedent for the change, but the Art of Mana was released at the same time and used he when discussing the making of the game.

I'm trying to give you the briefest summary I can as I have no expertise in Japanese sociolinguistic issues.  :o  What was discussed among those folks is in the commentary.

IcePenguin

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #109 on: January 08, 2021, 02:34:05 am »
We know that Randi's a human male, Purim's a human female, but Popoie is      ?  Some kind of noncorporeal mana spirit?

Why not do what Square Enix did with Quina in FF9?  Often during the story, characters would refer to Quina as "s/he" or something.  Everything about Quina was ambiguous, and that is part of its charm.  Same can be said in this case, as well.  You can't please everybody, but if it's ambiguous you can.  :P

FF9 Image:
Spoiler:

Dzumeister

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #110 on: January 08, 2021, 04:40:50 pm »
Why not do what Square Enix did with Quina in FF9?  Often during the story, characters would refer to Quina as "s/he" or something.  Everything about Quina was ambiguous, and that is part of its charm.  Same can be said in this case, as well.  You can't please everybody, but if it's ambiguous you can.  :P

FF9 Image:
Spoiler:

would zhe work?
free sluffy

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #111 on: January 08, 2021, 05:34:22 pm »
Undiplomatic programmer response incoming:
You guys are providing 5 minute input on something that was discussed to death for weeks.

There's far more nuance to the Japanese non-use of gendered pronouns for the sprite than simply "use an English approximation." Some NPCs don't know the sprite's gender so they're written to avoid specifically referring to him by gender. This ambiguity adds a bit of mystery for the player as they try and guess based on the sprite's appearance (e.g. puffy 80s hair), especially given the first encounter is the magic show where he acts pitiable. The sprite himself uses masculine speech and obviously considers himself boyish. Those close to him respect that and address him as he (etc.). Thus the mix of neutral and male, depending on who is speaking.

The Remake got it wrong and isn't a worthwhile reference point.

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #112 on: January 09, 2021, 04:27:51 am »
Undiplomatic programmer response incoming:
You guys are providing 5 minute input on something that was discussed to death for weeks.

There's far more nuance to the Japanese non-use of gendered pronouns for the sprite than simply "use an English approximation." Some NPCs don't know the sprite's gender so they're written to avoid specifically referring to him by gender. This ambiguity adds a bit of mystery for the player as they try and guess based on the sprite's appearance (e.g. puffy 80s hair), especially given the first encounter is the magic show where he acts pitiable. The sprite himself uses masculine speech and obviously considers himself boyish. Those close to him respect that and address him as he (etc.). Thus the mix of neutral and male, depending on who is speaking.
Agreed, the ambiguity is preferred.

The Remake got it wrong and isn't a worthwhile reference point.
Also agree.

CVReynolds

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #113 on: January 09, 2021, 09:14:29 am »
Well, the remake is the one that kept it ambiguous, for better or for worse. And Ted Woolsey tried to as well (barring a few slips here and there).

Anyway, I thought I had found an error and was eager to report it, but I was wrong. I wasn't trying to get someone to change something for me that they debated on for so long, etcetera. I was only trying to help and to get some answers for my curiosity, not cause some "5 minute input" or whatever the heck. I still don't like the inconsistency, but I'll be fine sticking with the original Woolsey version of Secret of Mana. It gets the thing that annoys me most "wrong" less. Who knows? Maybe I'll make my own custom edit sometime. If I ever have time, anyway.

Thanks for reading and sorry for wasting time with false reports. :3

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #114 on: January 09, 2021, 08:20:54 pm »
Well, the remake is the one that kept it ambiguous, for better or for worse. And Ted Woolsey tried to as well (barring a few slips here and there).

Anyway, I thought I had found an error and was eager to report it, but I was wrong. I wasn't trying to get someone to change something for me that they debated on for so long, etcetera. I was only trying to help and to get some answers for my curiosity, not cause some "5 minute input" or whatever the heck. I still don't like the inconsistency, but I'll be fine sticking with the original Woolsey version of Secret of Mana. It gets the thing that annoys me most "wrong" less. Who knows? Maybe I'll make my own custom edit sometime. If I ever have time, anyway.

Thanks for reading and sorry for wasting time with false reports. :3

No need to apologize---it's a good observation.  If there's anything I learned listening to others, it's that it's a difficult thing to get "right."

FWIW, Woolsey used both he and it.  Replace it with they and you sorta have what we did.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 08:38:03 pm by ManaRedux »