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Author Topic: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project  (Read 22371 times)

Masaru

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #80 on: November 25, 2020, 09:16:03 am »
Not a bad effort! All that's missing is a patch to fix the title screen. I didn't notice one looking through this site, but who knows? Maybe there's one floating around somewhere......
That patch dosen't even exist, the only way to do it is patching it from the turbo program or rip the patch from there

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #81 on: November 25, 2020, 09:46:41 am »
V1.3 has been posted; and V1.4 is right around the corner.  We've made over 300 edits since we launched last week.  There's too many things to mention here, but the script is in far better shape.  Most of it was fat trimming: over 1% of the text has been excised since V1.0. I am concentrating on Luka and Jema's dialogue right now. 

@dzumeister, the opening has been rewritten:

ELLIOTT:RANDI, you doofus! If you're careless, we'll be found out and the village Elder will be angry again!
TIMOTHY:That's right. According to village rules, coming here is not allowed! I heard there was a ghost and stuff...
ELLIOTT:Pfft, the adults are the childish ones, huh? They tell us that because they think it'll scare us and we'll stay away. But...grandma said she saw a big light shining near the waterfall. There must be some incredible treasure!
TIMOTHY:Now let's hurry and find it!

I also want to add that many of the punctuation errors you pointed out are commentary only.  I will have to find time to work on the commentary at a later date.

Quote
not sure if arrogant is the right adjective here. your notes mention "excessive", which works better, I think. maybe consider "domineering" or even "proud", or making reference to the humans instead:

You suggested: Their arrogance sparked the anger of the gods, and they sent the Mana Beast to the Earth.

Taosenai's original translation was, "Yet its excessive might was such as to draw the indignation of the gods. By their command, the Godbeast was dispatched to the earth." 

This obviously had to be cut down.  Your suggestion is a good one, but it's not just general arrogance, it's the fact that their creation was purely seeking power (hence might here) without regard for the consequences.  "Arrogance" was chosen over "excessive" as it accounts for the indignation.

I will make the change you suggested with the hero explicitly striking the fortress down.  For the record, Taosenai's translation:

"At that moment, the Fortress was struck down by a hero bearing the Holy Sword, and with it the Godbeast vanished from the sight of mankind."
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 09:53:40 am by ManaRedux »

Memorex

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #82 on: November 25, 2020, 05:05:34 pm »
Hi, the release of this project is like a dream come true. Been a fan of SoM since 1997, the gameplay, graphics, plot, music and the overall atmosphere in the game. Even today it still affects me just as much as it did back then. Maybe more.

Been following several attempts to retranslate SoM, only to see them get abandoned, and at one point I even gave it a try myself. With my limited hacking skills I managed to dump the french script from the remake(which had been inserted into the snes version)which supposedly follows the japanese script very closely. Using google translate and various french-english online dictionaries I then used SoM EDIT to update all the text up to meeting Watts in Gaias navel. By then I made some mistake which messed up the rom file, rendering it useless..  :-[

To finally see a proper retranslation like this being released feels totally surreal! I really hope for a VWF version as well, like others have said before me. And I look forward to eventually combining some verison of this with the various bugfixes and some of the modifications found in SoM Turbo!

As for mistakes and holes in the original script I dont mind seeing them corrected, but I'd personaly prefer that material based on an "extended universe" is kept to a minimum.  :) 

Though I havn't given it a try yet, I still want to say thanks!

Dzumeister

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #83 on: November 25, 2020, 08:29:23 pm »
V1.3 has been posted; and V1.4 is right around the corner.  We've made over 300 edits since we launched last week.  There's too many things to mention here, but the script is in far better shape.  Most of it was fat trimming: over 1% of the text has been excised since V1.0. I am concentrating on Luka and Jema's dialogue right now.

I appreciate your taking my feedback. I really don't want to step on any of the team's toes. I'd like to keep reading along with the PDF and leaving suggestions, but feel free to take them with a grain of salt. If you do happen to take them seriously, you might want to wait until I've been able to comb through the whole script, especially to save Queue the trouble of updating over and over again.

Potos Village read-through
Quote from: 43
Hey, if it isn't RANDI.
An amazing light
appeared in the sky a
little while ago. It
seemed to be in the
direction of the
waterfall.
Amazing might not be the right adjective to describe the light. More common synonyms could be brilliant, radiant, or even bright (if you decide to change the word, remember to change an to A). Second sentence is awkward, consider:
It looked like it came from the falls or It looked like it came from the forest

Quote from: 46
There's a man in the
pub I'm not used to
seeing around. I don't
know how to describe
it...you should see the
look in his eyes. It's
scary!
Suggested revision:
There's a stranger in the pub. He's got an intense look in his eyes... It's scary!

Quote from: 58
ELDER:Idiots! I said
don't go there! You have
conducted yourselves
like total brats!
Suggested revisions:
Idiots! I've told you all to stay out of there! You undisciplined brats!
or Idiots! I've told you all to stay away from there! You unruly brats!

Quote from: 62
ELLIOTT:Ooooh!
Maybe you found the
treasure!?
Consider changing the second sentence back to the W:
Did you find the treasure?

Quote from: 64
ELDER:Oh, bloody hell!
The Mana Sword has
been removed!
Everyone thought it
couldn't come loose,
but...
I think the W reads cleaner here, with a slight change:
ELDER:What have you
done?! How could YOU
have pulled out the
Mana Sword? That should be impossible...


Quote from: 65
TIMOTHY:Whoa! I've
heard of the Mana
Sword. There's a legend
that the village will be
annihilated if it's pulled
out...
Slight change to the third sentence:
Legend has it that the village will be annihilated if it's pulled out...

Quote from: 67
That legend says that
this Sword has been
with us to protect the
village. It's been drawn
now...
suggestion:
The legend says that the Mana Sword protects our village from disaster. Now that it's been removed...

Quote from: 72
ELLIOT:Get back here!
This is much more of a liberty than the other suggestions, but your notes say:
Quote
J is literally “Wait!”
with a coarse masculine
ending. There is a
distant possibility that
this was supposed to be
the Elder speaking, akin
to, “Hold it, you two!’.
It might be better to have the Elder trying to stop Elliot from attacking Randi, as it'd be in his character to keep the peace as the village's leader.

Quote from: 80
TRAVELER:Well
done! Wait, and I will
pull you up.
Consider:
Well done! Hold on, I will pull you up.

Quote from: 86
But you are too young.
Something has
happened to it...
Consider expanding second sentence for clarity; from the W:
Something must have happened to the sword.

Quote from: 89
It must be revived, but
that can only be done by
the one who took it. So I
can not...
revived might not be the right word, maybe try recharged, or reinvigorated??
Consider changing the second part of the first sentence:
but only the one who drew the sword can do so.
Also, apparently cannot is more usually used than can not, though it really doesn't matter

Quote from: 91
TRAVELER:It would
be good for you to hear
Rusa Luka at the Water
Palace. For 200 years,
Luka has steadily
watched over these
lands and would have
good wisdom for you.
somewhat awkward, consider:
Seek out Rusa Luka at the Water Palace. Luka has watched these lands for over 200 years and is undoubtedly more than wise enough to advise you.

Quote from: 103
You heard us! Get out
now!
Get out of here might work better as the second sentence, from the W.

Quote from: 108
If you're in the village,
disaster will come to
us...Please, get out!
consider changing the last part to Please leave!, as get out! has been repeated quite a few times already in the script

Quote from: 111
Hey, RANDI...my
buddy, going
somewhere? Have a
good trip!
notes say
Quote
J. “big brother”, but
this could imply a
familial relationship in
English.
but Popoie refers to Randi as "big bro" numerous times. "big bro" might be less awkward than "my buddy", but not really a big deal

Quote from: 112
ELDER:As it is, even I
can't do more for you---
you, who was not a
villager by birth. Please,
forgive me.
kind of awkward, consider:
Since you were not born here, I cannot protect you from the wishes of the villagers. Please, forgive me.

Quote from: 114
When you were a child,
you came with your
mother to this village
from somewhere
unknown.
Quote from: 115
But she soon went
missing.
The Woolsey version is much better:
Quote
Your mother brought
you to this village when
you were just a baby.

Soon afterwards, she
disappeared...

Quote from: 123
By order of the Elder,
you are hereby banished
from Potos Village.
Now, get out!
Again, get out is used way too often (why would you even say "get out" when he's out of the village?). Maybe leave instead, or even be gone!  :P
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 08:51:45 pm by Dzumeister »
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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #84 on: November 25, 2020, 09:09:44 pm »
@dzumeister, a lot of what you wrote may just come down to personal taste.  In a few cases, it's a matter of keeping it close as possible to the Japanese script.  Please check your DMs.

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #85 on: November 29, 2020, 05:46:50 pm »
There is a difference between "keeping it close to the Japanese script" and "overlaying the Japanese grammar and sentence structure", though. I understand how hard you've worked on this script, but if you look at a sentence and can't naturally picture it being said that way in English (not counting words spoken in an unusual dialect or speaking manner), it deserves a revision - because the absolute most important thing to get across in either language is clarity.

AdamDravian

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #86 on: November 29, 2020, 08:33:04 pm »
For what it's worth, I agree with Dzumeister about the lines he pointed out as being awkward. His suggested changes are good, though I would use a few more contractions.
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ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #87 on: November 29, 2020, 08:45:24 pm »
There is a difference between "keeping it close to the Japanese script" and "overlaying the Japanese grammar and sentence structure", though. I understand how hard you've worked on this script, but if you look at a sentence and can't naturally picture it being said that way in English (not counting words spoken in an unusual dialect or speaking manner), it deserves a revision - because the absolute most important thing to get across in either language is clarity.
For what it's worth, I agree with Dzumeister about the lines he pointed out as being awkward. His suggested changes are good, though I would use a few more contractions.

With the feedback of the last 10 days, we've made 5 revisions with hundreds of edits (V1.5 is the most extensive yet, should be ready tonight).  Some are still looking at the V1.0 script.  These changes should improve the experience substantially. 

Some samples:

Before: Conveyed by the flow of water, I know of happenings throughout the world.
Now: The ebb and flow of water convey knowledge about events throughout the world.

Before: Randi! You have gained much strength!
Now: Randi! You've gotten quite strong!

Before: I've decided that I must ask you to leave this village.
Now: I've decided I must ask you to leave this village.

Before: As for things you can get here---there's nothing but Sea Hare's Tails...
Now: There's nothing to be found here but Sea Hare's Tails...

Before: Actually, the Great Viper struck Matsuketan down, our last king.
Now: Actually, the Great Viper struck down our last king, Matsuketan.

Before: ...but King Mammon had it sealed and henceforth, none may enter.
Now: ...but King Mammon had it sealed. Since then, no one's been allowed to enter.

Before: What lies there...I don't know.
Now: I...don't know what lies there.
Literal Japanese: What could be there...I know not.

Before: Oh, the Republic? They mostly live in a castle on the sea a bit west of here.
Now: Oh the Republic? Go a bit west of here, and it's the castle on the coast.

Before: It'll probably take time, but I'm certain she'll return to how she was.
Now: It'll probably take time, but I'm certain she'll be as good as new.

Before: A monster has moved into the Crystal Palace since there's no one else there.
Now: A monster has moved into the abandoned Crystal Palace.

Before: Show resolve!
Now: Hang in there!

Before: But it's lost its light, and its power is no longer befitting the legend.
Now: But it's lost its light, and its power is no longer worthy of the legend.

Before: And once you know which magic to use in the forest to the west...
Now: And once you know which magic to use in the western forest...

Before: Because I didn't want to die, I pretended that I had this illness. Share that with no one!
Now: Because I didn't want to die, I faked having this illness. Don't tell anyone!

The original opening:

ELLIOTT:RANDI, you doofus! If you're careless, we'll be found out and the village Elder will be angry yet again!
TIMOTHY:That's right. According to village rules, coming here is not allowed! I heard there was a ghost and stuff...
ELLIOTT:Pfft, the adults are the childish ones, huh? They say that because they think it'll scare us and we'll stay away. But...grandma did say that she saw a big light shining near the waterfall. Surely, there's an incredible treasure!
TIMOTHY:Now let's hurry and keep going!

The new opening:

ELLIOTT:RANDI, you doofus! If you're careless, we'll be found out, and the village Elder will be angry again!
TIMOTHY:That's right. According to village rules, coming here is not allowed! I heard there was a ghost and stuff...
ELLIOTT:Pfft, the grown-ups are the childish ones, huh? They think that'll scare us and we'll stay away. But...grandma said she saw a big light shining near the waterfall. There must be some incredible treasure!
TIMOTHY:We have to find it! Let's keep going!

etc. etc.

The V1.5 script is about 1.5% smaller than V1.0 with all of the new edits.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 09:45:50 am by ManaRedux »

AdamDravian

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #88 on: November 30, 2020, 09:02:35 am »
These are all great changes. :thumbsup:
However, I do have a couple comments.

Now: The ebb and flow of water convey knowledge about events throughout the world.

I would change "convey" to "conveys".


Before: It'll probably take time, but I'm certain she'll return to how she was.
Now: It'll probably take time, but I'm certain she'll be as good as new.

That works, but I'd personally go with something like this (I added the previous line for context):
As for Pamela, you don't need to worry.
It might take a while, but she'll fully recover.



Before: Because I didn't want to die, I pretended that I had this illness. Share that with no one!
Now: Because I didn't want to die, I faked having this illness. Don't tell anyone!

Again, a definite improvement, but I'd go with something like this ... (I've added the first line the guard speaks for full context):
To be honest, I was also assigned to the Witch Suppression Squad.
But I didn't want to die, so I faked being sick. Keep that between us!
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Memorex

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #89 on: November 30, 2020, 01:58:33 pm »
Far what it's worth, I'm all for the changes Adam proposed. Especially the one about Pamela. Without the added context I would have
assumed it was refering to an object like a sword (..or a car) :P

As for the soldier, iirc the french script read something like "My life is too precious, so I faked being sick", which sounds even more comic to me. Just a little anecdote, not a suggestion  :)

Keep up the good work!

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2020, 02:32:01 pm »
That works, but I'd personally go with something like this (I added the previous line for context):
As for Pamela, you don't need to worry.
It might take a while, but she'll fully recover.

"It'll probably take some time, but I'm certain she'll be right as rain" might work instead of "good as new", too, if you're looking to use a phrase instead

November 30, 2020, 05:25:31 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Before: Conveyed by the flow of water, I know of happenings throughout the world.
Now: The ebb and flow of water convey knowledge about events throughout the world.

I *think* it should be conveys
« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 05:25:31 pm by Dzumeister »
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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #91 on: November 30, 2020, 07:53:57 pm »
The changes shown are very well done. I believe it is "conveys" as well, since it is continually occurring.

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2020, 11:13:54 pm »
So glad to see this project come to fruition. ManaRedux has worked way too hard on it--it took him far, far longer to align every line of every English translation of the game ever done, to re-localize the text from multiple sources, to prepare the commentary, to lay everything out for text insertion, etc. than it did for me to hastily translate the original Japanese. That's not to even mention what Queue has been doing to make everything actually work.

If other folks have questions about the original Japanese, I'm happy to provide feedback when I remember to check the thread. At this point, most of the lines in the script have developed their own voice distinct from the direct translation I provided. That's as it should be; anything past textbook Japanese does not translate "literally" into English, and ManaRedux took care to knead in some of the flavor of Woolsey's original in any case while preserving the sentiment of the original Japanese as accurately as he could.

That original script is basically workmanlike in most places, but it's poetic when it counts. It's also chock full of fun use of names and ideas from foreign languages, from Dungeons & Dragons, and from the Wizardry games--all well known influences on Square in its golden age. A whole host of French names appear, for example, albeit occasionally used in the same kind of nonsense fashion that English writers sometimes use Japanese words. (I suspect that Emperor Vandole's true name is Emperor Vent d'Or, for example!)

Finally, let me share my favorite bit of trivia from the original script. Sergei sings a brief segment of a song about loving the sea in one of his bits of dialogue; I did a bit of digging, and am certain that it's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbY9ImmYEc   Although released in 1976, "Umi sono ai" was featured in the famous New Year's singing content on NHK (Kouhaku Uta Gassen) in 1987, so well within working memory for the game's developers!

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #93 on: December 01, 2020, 03:43:47 am »
It should be 'conveys', yes.

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #94 on: December 01, 2020, 05:28:51 am »
I already fixed it for the next release.

December 01, 2020, 06:14:56 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Far what it's worth, I'm all for the changes Adam proposed. Especially the one about Pamela. Without the added context I would have
assumed it was refering to an object like a sword (..or a car) :P

As for the soldier, iirc the french script read something like "My life is too precious, so I faked being sick", which sounds even more comic to me. Just a little anecdote, not a suggestion  :)

Keep up the good work!

It's very common for a doctor to tell you you're as good as new. 
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 10:29:08 am by ManaRedux »

Memorex

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #95 on: December 01, 2020, 10:57:17 am »
It's very common for a doctor to tell you you're as good as new.

Yes, sure. Thought 'recover' sounded a bit more dramatic, but it's totally your call  :thumbsup:

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2020, 01:43:24 pm »
V1.6 will be released tonightish, and that's the last planned update for now.  It has a few hundred(!) more edits similar to those in #87.  All of the revisions since V1.0 were in response to the general consensus; we took a look at each line with the project's goals and our original plans in mind.  The script has about 2% less text than our first release, and I hope it will be seen as a huge improvement to the experience, even if we couldn't accommodate every request.

Taosenai, Queue and myself would like to move this release into maintenance mode, and be more active with other projects.  This is only the first release of the SAP!  Queue is working on Turbo (including implementing this script), and Taosenai is working on his own script (100% ManaRedux free) based on his very literal translation for this release, as well as developing his own hacking tools for the game.  Moving forward, if there's mass backlash against something specific, we'll take a look, but it seems to be in a good place for now.  We'll continue to be active on this thread.

My recommendation is to actually play V1.6 and enjoy yourself :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 09:38:34 pm by ManaRedux »

Memorex

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2020, 02:10:14 pm »
Thanks for all the work that has been put in to this! It'll be a perfect company for the upcoming holidays :)

You deserve a beer for this!  :beer:

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #98 on: December 01, 2020, 03:26:01 pm »
So glad to see this project come to fruition. ManaRedux has worked way too hard on it--it took him far, far longer to align every line of every English translation of the game ever done, to re-localize the text from multiple sources, to prepare the commentary, to lay everything out for text insertion, etc. than it did for me to hastily translate the original Japanese. That's not to even mention what Queue has been doing to make everything actually work.

If other folks have questions about the original Japanese, I'm happy to provide feedback when I remember to check the thread. At this point, most of the lines in the script have developed their own voice distinct from the direct translation I provided. That's as it should be; anything past textbook Japanese does not translate "literally" into English, and ManaRedux took care to knead in some of the flavor of Woolsey's original in any case while preserving the sentiment of the original Japanese as accurately as he could.

That original script is basically workmanlike in most places, but it's poetic when it counts. It's also chock full of fun use of names and ideas from foreign languages, from Dungeons & Dragons, and from the Wizardry games--all well known influences on Square in its golden age. A whole host of French names appear, for example, albeit occasionally used in the same kind of nonsense fashion that English writers sometimes use Japanese words. (I suspect that Emperor Vandole's true name is Emperor Vent d'Or, for example!)

Finally, let me share my favorite bit of trivia from the original script. Sergei sings a brief segment of a song about loving the sea in one of his bits of dialogue; I did a bit of digging, and am certain that it's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbY9ImmYEc   Although released in 1976, "Umi sono ai" was featured in the famous New Year's singing content on NHK (Kouhaku Uta Gassen) in 1987, so well within working memory for the game's developers!
Due to the new member moderation delay, Taosenai's post got buried a few posts back due to the discussion about convey.

Regarding convey vs. conveys... it depends on if "ebb and flow" is a compound subject. After deciding that (it's not absolute), then it's just basic subject-verb agreement.

So strip it down and read:
(ebb and flow)conveys(knowledge)
(ebb)and(flow)convey (knowledge)


"The ebb and flow" is often treated as a compound subject in English, especially if used metaphorically, but in this case it's literal, referring to water flowing in and out (or rising and falling, etc.). So it boils down to the writer's choice as it's easy to argue both cases for "ebb and flow" (that it's a singular compound subject or that it's plural); personally, I think it reads better as "convey" without the "s"...

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #99 on: December 01, 2020, 04:12:37 pm »
V1.6 will be released tonightish, and that's the last planned update for now.  It has a few hundred(!) more edits similar to those in #87.  All of the revisions since V1.0 were in response to the general consensus; we took a look at each line with the project's goals and our original plans in mind.  The script has about 2% less text than our first release, and I hope it will be seen as a huge improvement to the experience, even if we couldn't accommodate every request.

Taosenai, Queue and myself would like to move this release into maintenance mode, and be more active with other projects.  This is only the first release of the SAP!  Queue is working on Turbo (including implementing this script), and Taosenai is working on his own script (100% ManaRedux free) based on his very literal translation for this release, as well as developing his own hacking tools for the game.  Moving forward, if there's mass backlash against something specific, we'll take a look, but it seems to be in a good place for now.  We'll continue to be active on this thread (Taosenai should make an appearance at some point).

My recommendation is to actually play V1.6 and enjoy yourself :thumbsup:
Was about to sit down with it, but I think waiting for 1.6 might be a better idea.

As for the literal translation, a project like that was done nearly 20 years ago and it didn't read well. It's not that it wasn't translated well, it's just that literal translations of Japanese always read poorly in English. The reason for this is very simple: language structure & functionality. Japanese is functionally different from Germanic, Slovic and other phonetic based languages in that a single word can be used to express an entire idea, concept or even a whole expression. It takes careful and skillful thought to properly translate Japanese to just about any other language.

Honestly, I prefer the "westernized" approach done for this game.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 04:26:22 pm by lexluthermiester »