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Author Topic: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project  (Read 15243 times)

Guadozoku

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2020, 09:07:52 am »
Let's see how much willpower you have. Did you manage to resist the temptation to make a joke about Paul Manafort in the Mana Fortress?

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2020, 10:01:13 am »

The new script reads more literally, though--it really reminds me of kWhazit's Chrono Trigger translation from years back. I like the longer dialogue, but some of it reads unnatural coming from some of the characters.


I strongly urge you to play through the entire patch before making this assessment.  You may have a solid point, but things are best read in context.  One can only make action RPG dialogue from 1993 so "natural", while retaining all of the source's nuances, which was our main goal.  Even the 2018 remaster, which was written with voice acting in mind, had some interpretations that were not conversational.  It's just the nature of the script.

I'll also add that many of the characters were written to sound a certain way.  Timothy is somewhat awkward, Jema is written to sound more like a warrior, the Scorpion Army is written to sound over the top and absurd, you already mentioned Luka/Shade, etc.  Throughout the process, the game's dialogue came off theatrical and florid in places...but that's just how it is.

Let's see how much willpower you have. Did you manage to resist the temptation to make a joke about Paul Manafort in the Mana Fortress?

 :laugh:

I made plenty of jokes about Paul Manafort in the Mana Fortress.  I just didn't put any of them in the script.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 12:30:01 pm by ManaRedux »

AdamDravian

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2020, 12:50:43 pm »
I really appreciate that you shared the commentary pdf. Looking through it, I noticed the Sahagin is another monster taken directly from Dungeons & Dragons, though the actual spelling is Sahuagin.

I'm undecided on which version of your patch to use. I'd prefer the Japanese names, as I'm usually a purist. However, Secret of Mana is well-known for being a bit incomplete, so I'm curious to see the expanded content that your team pulled from various official sources.
Writer of the '80s-themed webcomic Satan Ninja 198X

Dzumeister

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2020, 04:40:25 pm »
I strongly urge you to play through the entire patch before making this assessment.  You may have a solid point, but things are best read in context.  One can only make action RPG dialogue from 1993 so "natural", while retaining all of the source's nuances, which was our main goal.  Even the 2018 remaster, which was written with voice acting in mind, had some interpretations that were not conversational.  It's just the nature of the script.

I'll also add that many of the characters were written to sound a certain way.  Timothy is somewhat awkward, Jema is written to sound more like a warrior, the Scorpion Army is written to sound over the top and absurd, you already mentioned Luka/Shade, etc.  Throughout the process, the game's dialogue came off theatrical and florid in places...but that's just how it is.

I'd prefer to read through the notes you provided, as another playthrough of this game doesn't sound that appealing to me right at this time :P I did start a new game though, just to see how things would look, and it didn't really change my mind. Actually, it kind of was the opening moments that reconfirmed my feelings on it. You do mention that "less is more", and I agree--Woolsey manages to keep a surprising amount of depth when compared side-by-side to your script, and in a lot of cases, I feel like it works well tonally. I respect the commitment to the original Japanese dialogue and bringing personality to characters that was previously unknown, though I still think it would benefit from editing.

Here's what I mean:
Quote from: 1652 - 1653 (SAP ver.)
RANDI:Yeah!
Something like that!
There's no way I can do
it!
I can't stand the
thought of never seeing
you again!
compared to Woolsey's original:
Quote from: 1652 (Woolsey ver.)
RANDI:Right...I can't
go through with this...
In fewer words, I think Woolsey's interpretation gives a more nuanced take on an emotional scene while still sounding relatable. The funny thing is, I prefer Reborn's line that immediately follows:

Quote from: 1654 (SAP ver.)
POPOIE:, Come on!
What are you even
saying!? It's not like I'm
gonna die!
(there is an unneeded comma after the colon though)

There's quite a few places in the script where I'm torn between the original localization and this newer take, and I think a compromise between the two might smooth over some of the weirdness.

---
Prologue - read-through

Quote from: 2
In Ancient times...
Civilizations that
evolved through the
power of Mana had
flourished across the
planet.
Ancient doesn't need to be capitalized (source - last paragraph concerning "ancient")

Quote from: 4
Its arrogant might
touched the anger of the
gods, and they sent the
Mana Beast to the
Earth.
not sure if arrogant is the right adjective here. your notes mention "excessive", which works better, I think. maybe consider "domineering" or even "proud", or making reference to the humans instead:
Their arrogance sparked the anger of the gods, and they sent the Mana Beast to the Earth.

Quote from: 6
Then, a hero came with
the holy Mana Sword,
and the Fortress fell.
With that, the Mana
Beast vanished from the
sight of humanity.
From the notes in Japanese, it seems that you lose some of what happened. It describes the hero destroying the Fortress, but R's script makes it much more passive. Consider adapting some of the W:
Before all was lost, a hero bearing the holy Mana Sword destroyed the Fortress, and the Mana Beast disappeared.

It Begins - readthrough

Quote from: 10
ELLIOTT:RANDI, you
doofus! If you're
careless, we'll be found
out and the village Elder
will be angry yet again!
Awkward dialogue, consider:
RANDI, you doofus! If the Elder finds out we're here, we'll get in trouble again!

Quote from: 11
TIMOTHY:That's right.
According to village
rules, coming here is not
allowed! I heard there
was a ghost and stuff...
Awkward dialogue, consider:
You're right, we shouldn't be here. There's supposed to be a ghost in this forest...

Quote from: 12
ELLIOTT:Pfft, the
adults are the childish
ones, huh? They say
that because they think
if they scare us, we'll
stay away.
Awkward dialogue, consider adapting some of the W:
ELLIOT:Ha! Do you really believe that? The adults say that to keep us away.

Quote from: 13
But...grandma did say
that she saw a big light
shining near the
waterfall. Surely,
there's an incredible
treasure!
Consider adapting some of the W:
I heard grandma say that she saw something shiny by the falls. It's probably treasure!

Quote from: 14
TIMOTHY:Now let's
hurry and keep going!
Jarring transition, consider:
TIMOTHY: Ooh! Let's hurry and find it!

Quote from: 37
RANDI:Woah, a Rabite
in a place like this!
That's nuts!
I think the W version is cleaner

Quote from: 39
NO TRESPASSING IN
THE FOREST NEAR
TOPAZ FALLS
Elder of Potos Village
Maybe add a hyphen before the signature
NO TRESSPASSING IN TOPAZ FALLS FOREST
-Elder of Potos Village


Quote from: 41
You must not fall down now...
I know it's in the W version, but I don't think you need "down". It just sounds like you're just tripping or falling over, but leaving it as "fall" gives the gist like "falling in battle"

« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 11:51:21 pm by Dzumeister »
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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2020, 05:49:51 pm »
At this point I feel it would help to reference a Secret of Mana Let's Play, because it does include some translation from the Japanese script "touched up". Make of it what you will; it's a good LP, anyway. Here's the translated opening, for example:

Quote
In a calamity,
people waited for a brave
with the sword.

The sword revealed the power
of its true nature to
retrieve the peace.

Excalibur, Kusanagi, and
all the other swords talked
in myth, legend, and saga...
People named those
swords in many ways.

But...
They all meant one thing.
The one and only...

The Sword of Mana.

In the faraway past...
Civilizations that evolved due to the power of Mana flourished on the planet.

Before long, humans began to use the power of Mana in warfare,
Birthing the colossal ship they called the Mana Fortress.

However, that mighty power drew the fury and anger of the gods,
and they sent their holy beast to ravage the earth.

The furious battle between fortress and beast ensnared the world in poison and flame,
And Mana began to rapidly disappear.

It was then, that a hero with the Holy Sword destroyed the Fortress,
and slayed the holy beast before the eyes of mankind.

Civilization was utterly obliterated due to warfare,
But the world had once again become peaceful...

Time flows on...

And history will repeat.

Dzumeister

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2020, 06:04:03 pm »
At this point I feel it would help to reference a Secret of Mana Let's Play, because it does include some translation from the Japanese script "touched up". Make of it what you will; it's a good LP, anyway. Here's the translated opening, for example:

They literally reference this Let's Play in their PDF, if you'd check it out
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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2020, 06:29:02 pm »
They literally reference this Let's Play in their PDF, if you'd check it out

Fair enough, but what page is it on?

Dzumeister

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2020, 11:43:28 pm »
Fair enough, but what page is it on?

The Preface on page 5, second paragraph:
Quote
We are aware of two external retranslations of the game. A spirited localization of the game’s essential script
was made by Reverend Cheddar for the 2011 LP Archive walkthrough. Also, kWhazit, of the Chrono Trigger
Retranslation Project, is many years into a total retranslation of the game text which at present is partially
complete.

A full list of sources is included as well, which you'll see if you open and read the PDF
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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #68 on: November 20, 2020, 12:31:32 am »
The Preface on page 5, second paragraph:
A full list of sources is included as well, which you'll see if you open and read the PDF

Very precise, thanks - but where is the PDF, please?

Dzumeister

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2020, 01:48:10 am »
http://www.romhacking.net/translations/5765/

download the .zip and you should find it
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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #70 on: November 20, 2020, 02:09:38 am »
http://www.romhacking.net/translations/5765/

download the .zip and you should find it

Ah, thanks. It's very comprehensive.

azidahaka

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2020, 09:51:44 am »
CUT

Seems you do not have a good idea of the work behind this and its scope. It's a very long project that had multiple revisions and constant tinkering and corrections. And its main scope was to give a proper experience allowing to give all non Japanese speakers a real taste of the game. You must know that japanese is a language of nuances and they made a GIGANTIC work trying to save them. Not to make the most "palatable" version around.

Many of the changes you suggest would make the translation less accurate, and actually convey less information than the japanese version

Ex. you say that:
Quote from: 10
ELLIOTT:RANDI, you
doofus! If you're
careless, we'll be found
out and the village Elder
will be angry yet again!

you say it's Awkward and suggest:
RANDI, you doofus! If the Elder finds out we're here, we'll get in trouble again!

You could do that but you miss Nuances that they worked extra hard to convey from original script:
1. you lose the part about being careless
2. It has a shade of "elder gets always angry" at them or generally (yet again)


Again your critic about
TIMOTHY:That's right.
According to village
rules, coming here is not
allowed! I heard there
was a ghost and stuff...

you suggest:
You're right, we shouldn't be here. There's supposed to be a ghost in this forest...

you are missing content again:
1.there's rules about not going there
2. it's not like there's supposed to be a ghost there. It's more like a "rumor, say, legend" of the ghost and that they have a vague idea of that

can't you see all the nuances, details that are recovered? And they went this way recovering, retranslating fixing errors and even adding stuff from guides and remake...

I've been checking their work as insider since the beginning and i can assure that there's not a single line that wasn't re-evaluated multiple times by multiple users, translators, ecc ecc

That said there's a few things to fix or improve, but why would they "simplify the script" to make it m ore pleasant if it means substracting from the retranslation? Woolsey would have tried to keep the same accuracy if he didn't had weeks to translate and half the space allowed in use.

This said, it's not final release, and i would have preferred the Scorpion armies robots to be called Primus and Secundus instead of Alfie and Bettie (the second name sound femalish and makes harder to convey the japanese joke on the names), or i just noticed that in Matango screen above Son of Man would probably better than "child of man".

I'm sure criticism for improving some things are more than welcome, but changing parts trying to leave less meaning and stry from actual meaning seem to me frankly pointless.

Dzumeister

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #72 on: November 20, 2020, 02:53:49 pm »
I definitely understand that my suggested edits are sacrificing accuracy and information, but I think when read aloud, the Reborn script has a lot of awkward instances that don't feel natural to English speakers. They take you out of the experience. Yes, Woolsey had to cut a lot of content, but he also knew his audience--the choices he made kept the spirit of the original while being concise, and it flowed well.

Quote
You could do that but you miss Nuances that they worked extra hard to convey from original script:
1. you lose the part about being careless
2. It has a shade of "elder gets always angry" at them or generally (yet again)
1. "careless" doesn't add much
2. You get that these kids are always getting into trouble with the Elder

Quote
you are missing content again:
1.there's rules about not going there
2. it's not like there's supposed to be a ghost there. It's more like a "rumor, say, legend" of the ghost and that they have a vague idea of that
1. You could change it so that Timothy says: "We're not allowed to be here." As you progress from this point, you find a sign that says being in the forest is forbidden by the Elder, so I didn't think much of it.
2. the definition I got for "supposed" through Google came up as "generally assumed or believed to be the case, but not necessarily so". I thought this could have worked as shorthand for that idea

I understand that a patch like this isn't for a player like me. I don't want to overstep and insult the work of so many dedicated and passionate people, so I won't make any more suggestions. I genuinely want to help smooth over some of the script.
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ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #73 on: November 20, 2020, 04:31:26 pm »
I definitely understand that my suggested edits are sacrificing accuracy and information, but I think when read aloud, the Reborn script has a lot of awkward instances that don't feel natural to English speakers. They take you out of the experience. Yes, Woolsey had to cut a lot of content, but he also knew his audience--the choices he made kept the spirit of the original while being concise, and it flowed well.

...

I understand that a patch like this isn't for a player like me. I don't want to overstep and insult the work of so many dedicated and passionate people, so I won't make any more suggestions. I genuinely want to help smooth over some of the script.

I'm all for making the script more readable.  You mentioned kWhazit's Chrono Trigger retranslation...that was more literal (even retaining honorifics IIRC) than what we did here.  However, everyone has a different idea of what reads smoothly, and I think that giving into Woolsey nostalgia (which we obviously did ourselves at times), or working to please absolutely everyone defeats the massive amount of work then went into this project.  Seriously, I don't know if we could've assembled a better group of folks to consult with.  As stated previously, a script of this type will have lines that are theatrical or florid.

That being said, I went through the script and made over one hundred minor adjustments---adding contractions, removing redundancies, grammatical stuff, spacing, etc.  This update should be submitted soon.

The one thing for me is how much longer the game takes just from careful reading.  That was the one biggest feedback during playtesting, that the original script is surprisingly long for a fast paced action RPG and slows the game down.  For example, Luka and the Mana Tree have soooo much dialogue now, but that's how it was in the original.  The creators seemed to throw a huge amount of content at their speeches.

CoolCatBomberMan

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2020, 02:38:38 am »
Not a bad effort! All that's missing is a patch to fix the title screen. I didn't notice one looking through this site, but who knows? Maybe there's one floating around somewhere......

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #75 on: November 21, 2020, 02:56:17 pm »
Not a bad effort! All that's missing is a patch to fix the title screen. I didn't notice one looking through this site, but who knows? Maybe there's one floating around somewhere......

You mean revert to the Japanese title screen? 

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #76 on: November 21, 2020, 03:49:49 pm »
You mean revert to the Japanese title screen?

Yeah, that's right.

Piotyr

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #77 on: November 22, 2020, 09:24:44 am »
Can you stack this with the turbo mod?

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #78 on: November 22, 2020, 02:10:57 pm »
Can you stack this with the turbo mod?
Not especially safely. If you try, you'd probably want to use Turbo first then patch this on top afterwards. That would disable any Turbo features that make changes to event data, but make game breaking patch conflicts less likely. Still a decent chance it won't go well, so good luck.

I'll be integrating Reborn into the Turbo project after we finish with this initial barrage of post-release updates. I'm working on getting Reborn v1.2 prepared and submitted as I write this.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #79 on: November 22, 2020, 03:11:08 pm »
I'll be integrating Reborn into the Turbo project after we finish with this initial barrage of post-release updates. I'm working on getting Reborn v1.2 prepared and submitted as I write this.

Thanks Queue!

I'll be taking a break for a few days, but we've received some very solid feedback for the next version.

Quote
I really appreciate that you shared the commentary pdf. Looking through it, I noticed the Sahagin is another monster taken directly from Dungeons & Dragons, though the actual spelling is Sahuagin.

I'm undecided on which version of your patch to use. I'd prefer the Japanese names, as I'm usually a purist. However, Secret of Mana is well-known for being a bit incomplete, so I'm curious to see the expanded content that your team pulled from various official sources.

Thanks for pointing that out.  I'll include it in the next release.

A "pure" translation is important, and it's being worked on as we speak.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 08:04:43 am by ManaRedux »