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Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project

Started by reconstructingmana, June 02, 2020, 02:13:32 AM

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reconstructingmana

Great to have Dr. Tasoenai here!

Quote from: Memorex on December 01, 2020, 02:10:14 PM
You deserve a beer for this!  :beer:

Life's too short for beer.  I drink whiskey.  :laugh:

V1.6 is up.


lexluthermiester

#102
Update. While playing through I've found two errors in the script that need correction. The first is in SouthTown and involved the secret code to access the sewer. The code is functionally "634", but the script for the old woman states it a 643 "Ma-su-shi". The next is in Northtown as you come out of the sewer. The room after meeting Krissie as a woman who talks about Thanatos and "Fanha" talking. But as this rework of the translation Fanha is now Pamela. Or am I mistaken?

reconstructingmana

Quote from: lexluthermiester on December 04, 2020, 05:11:38 AM
Update. While playing through I've found to errors in the script that need correction. The first is in SouthTown and involved the secret code to access the sewer. The code is functionally "634", but the script for the old woman states it a 643 "Ma-su-shi". The next is in Northtown as you come out of the sewer. The room after meeting Krissie as a woman who talks about Thanatos and "Fanha" talking. But as this rework of the translation Fanha is now Pamela. Or am I mistaken?

The first line is explained in the commentary, but in the game, she's saying that's why she chose 634, not that the password isn't 634.

Fanha is Fanha.  Phanna is Pamela. 

lexluthermiester


CVReynolds

Hello. The below line will need fixing unless you already have done so. My apologies if you already have.

Spoiler
1665:

...he's gone already. He
vanished! I still hadn't
said goodbye...
[close]

It uses "he's" instead of Popoie's usual "they're".

While I'm at it, thanks much for such a great new translation, project authors. :3

reconstructingmana

#106
Quote from: CVReynolds on January 07, 2021, 03:49:40 PM
Hello. The below line will need fixing unless you already have done so. My apologies if you already have.

Spoiler
1665:

...he's gone already. He
vanished! I still hadn't
said goodbye...
[close]

It uses "he's" instead of Popoie's usual "they're".

While I'm at it, thanks much for such a great new translation, project authors. :3

There's a long explanation of this in the commentary (I'd recommend the latest version, 1.8 ), but the tl;dr is that we used both they and he at different points because it's hopelessly complex and after much consulting, everyone thought that was the best route. Out of everything in the project, this was the one translation/script issue that had the most contributors---probably six or seven folks? :o  I ended up editing the commentary down to the essential stuff in the latest release, though hardly any of those ideas came from me.


CVReynolds

Quote from: ManaRedux on January 07, 2021, 04:27:41 PM
There's a long explanation of this in the commentary (I'd recommend the latest version, 1.8 ), but the tl;dr is that we used both they and he at different points because it's hopelessly complex and after much consulting, everyone thought that was the best route. Out of everything in the project, this was the one translation/script issue that had the most contributors---probably six or seven folks? :o  I ended up editing the commentary down to the essential stuff in the latest release, though hardly any of those ideas came from me.

Hello again. The spot I cited was the only spot in the script where I saw Popoie gendered as "he" because I had skipped Popoie's intro before (my apologies). Popoie's intro also uses male pronouns for the character four times for a grand total of five uses of male pronouns for Popoie in the project script. The Japanese doesn't seem to use a gender in any of those situations, though. So count me in as one who disagrees with this decision, whether I'm the only one or not. It's inconsistent with the rest of the script and the source. I also think the sprite's gender ambiguity is part of the character. Finally, if I remember correctly, Popoie is referred to with male pronouns three times across Ted Woolsey's script (twice in Popoie's intro and once in a mid-game text). But it likely wasn't intentionally done.
Spoiler
And it wasn't done during a spot as impactful as the ending or come from the mouth of a character as important as Randi.
[close]
The remake seems to always keep the character neutral in pronouns.

Thanks for reading.

reconstructingmana

I don't have the numbers memorized, but it was roughly the same for both.  One occurrence of they is in an uncommon line.

QuoteThe Japanese doesn't seem to use a gender in any of those situations, though.

I'll try to be the messenger here as I left this to folks who know far more than I do about this stuff.

Whatever Japanese pronoun is used for Popoie has been interpreted as genderless, but the same pronoun was used for other characters who aren't genderless.  It doesn't always translate to a singular "they" in English.

In the first and second person, there are words that usually imply maleness. 

Our main translator and both Japanese people on the project suggested exclusively using "he" based on that and other things.  In fact, the translation that this script is based on used he without any reserve.  Skipping way ahead, we ended up using both.

QuoteI also think the sprite's gender ambiguity is part of the character.

As our translator noted in a very long Discord chat, the mystery actually comes from the question, what is Popoie in terms of biological basis, and not so much gender expression.  We know that Randi's a human male, Purim's a human female, but Popoie is      ?  Some kind of noncorporeal mana spirit?

QuoteThe remake seems to always keep the character neutral in pronouns.

AFAIK, this is what set the precedent for the change, but the Art of Mana was released at the same time and used he when discussing the making of the game.

I'm trying to give you the briefest summary I can as I have no expertise in Japanese sociolinguistic issues.  :o  What was discussed among those folks is in the commentary.

IcePenguin

Quote from: ManaRedux on January 08, 2021, 02:12:25 AM
We know that Randi's a human male, Purim's a human female, but Popoie is      ?  Some kind of noncorporeal mana spirit?

Why not do what Square Enix did with Quina in FF9?  Often during the story, characters would refer to Quina as "s/he" or something.  Everything about Quina was ambiguous, and that is part of its charm.  Same can be said in this case, as well.  You can't please everybody, but if it's ambiguous you can.  :P

FF9 Image:
Spoiler
[close]

Dzumeister

Quote from: IcePenguin on January 08, 2021, 02:34:05 AM
Why not do what Square Enix did with Quina in FF9?  Often during the story, characters would refer to Quina as "s/he" or something.  Everything about Quina was ambiguous, and that is part of its charm.  Same can be said in this case, as well.  You can't please everybody, but if it's ambiguous you can.  :P

FF9 Image:
Spoiler
[close]

would zhe work?
free sluffy

Queue

Undiplomatic programmer response incoming:
You guys are providing 5 minute input on something that was discussed to death for weeks.

There's far more nuance to the Japanese non-use of gendered pronouns for the sprite than simply "use an English approximation." Some NPCs don't know the sprite's gender so they're written to avoid specifically referring to him by gender. This ambiguity adds a bit of mystery for the player as they try and guess based on the sprite's appearance (e.g. puffy 80s hair), especially given the first encounter is the magic show where he acts pitiable. The sprite himself uses masculine speech and obviously considers himself boyish. Those close to him respect that and address him as he (etc.). Thus the mix of neutral and male, depending on who is speaking.

The Remake got it wrong and isn't a worthwhile reference point.

lexluthermiester

Quote from: Queue on January 08, 2021, 05:34:22 PM
Undiplomatic programmer response incoming:
You guys are providing 5 minute input on something that was discussed to death for weeks.

There's far more nuance to the Japanese non-use of gendered pronouns for the sprite than simply "use an English approximation." Some NPCs don't know the sprite's gender so they're written to avoid specifically referring to him by gender. This ambiguity adds a bit of mystery for the player as they try and guess based on the sprite's appearance (e.g. puffy 80s hair), especially given the first encounter is the magic show where he acts pitiable. The sprite himself uses masculine speech and obviously considers himself boyish. Those close to him respect that and address him as he (etc.). Thus the mix of neutral and male, depending on who is speaking.
Agreed, the ambiguity is preferred.

Quote from: Queue on January 08, 2021, 05:34:22 PM
The Remake got it wrong and isn't a worthwhile reference point.
Also agree.

CVReynolds

#113
Well, the remake is the one that kept it ambiguous, for better or for worse. And Ted Woolsey tried to as well (barring a few slips here and there).

Anyway, I thought I had found an error and was eager to report it, but I was wrong. I wasn't trying to get someone to change something for me that they debated on for so long, etcetera. I was only trying to help and to get some answers for my curiosity, not cause some "5 minute input" or whatever the heck. I still don't like the inconsistency, but I'll be fine sticking with the original Woolsey version of Secret of Mana. It gets the thing that annoys me most "wrong" less. Who knows? Maybe I'll make my own custom edit sometime. If I ever have time, anyway.

Thanks for reading and sorry for wasting time with false reports. :3

EDIT: Wasn't planning to come back but I can't stand thinking about it. I left looking angry because I was afraid people were going to fight over my opinion. Woolsey's translation probably calls the Sprite "he" just as many times as this fan translation does. So I as wrong about that. I still don't like the consistency either way, but I still endorse this fan translation because it is more accurate than the SNES one regardless. Picking through all the errors in the SNES translation for my own private script edit has revealed to me the weaknesses of the SNES translation for modern times. Woolsey did a great job localizing and fitting the text into the game, and his translations were top-of-the-line back in the day (next to the EarthBound translation, anyway). But it's good to have a translation without the errors and the need to crunch. Congratulations. :3

reconstructingmana

#114
Quote from: CVReynolds on January 09, 2021, 09:14:29 AM
Well, the remake is the one that kept it ambiguous, for better or for worse. And Ted Woolsey tried to as well (barring a few slips here and there).

Anyway, I thought I had found an error and was eager to report it, but I was wrong. I wasn't trying to get someone to change something for me that they debated on for so long, etcetera. I was only trying to help and to get some answers for my curiosity, not cause some "5 minute input" or whatever the heck. I still don't like the inconsistency, but I'll be fine sticking with the original Woolsey version of Secret of Mana. It gets the thing that annoys me most "wrong" less. Who knows? Maybe I'll make my own custom edit sometime. If I ever have time, anyway.

Thanks for reading and sorry for wasting time with false reports. :3

No need to apologize---it's a good observation.  If there's anything I learned listening to others, it's that it's a difficult thing to get "right."

FWIW, Woolsey used both he and it.  Replace it with they and you sorta have what we did.

OldSchoolGamer86

I just joined the forum as i have just read what others have posted but i want to contribute and be a part of the community so here we are. 

First of,  i want to say from the bottom of my heart, i want to give a big thank you so much to ManaRedux and the rest of his team for undertaking such a large project and for all the effort he and his team have put into it.

I noticed his blog which i loved reading went down so i decided to post here hopefully getting his attention and answer as to why he decided to take it down. I have been playing and on the discord servers i am a member of,  informing all the people who like snes and jrpgs or specifically seiken densetsu about this.

Aside from the font everything about this project is fantasitic and the font iant even a big deal anyway just the one thing i feel could be better but i understand there was most likely a reason for as to why it was chosen. 

I am trying to learn japanese myself on my own and it is not easy... im on a few day break but i hope to get a basic understanding atleast as i love not only the japanese box art and voices when playing a game if possible but i also feel and believe we loose a good deal of story as well as other parts of games when translated both due to censorship as well as during localization.  I am someone who would prefer a direct as possible translation rather than localizations including cultural changes. Id rather have a japanese joke or pun left in as opposed to something changed completely just because its for american audiences. I feel if a games location is in japan or an asian or eastern themed area...americanized jokes and puns and things just dont fit in and for me detract from the story. I also dislike how scenes or stories get "watered down" or made to sound more child friendly taking out or replacing harsh language and things like for example in FF6 at the beginning in south figaro kefka in the japanese script when he lights tge castle on fire it alludes to him saying something along the lines of him saying something like "well you can all burn to death" or something of the sort but our craptastic version has "welcome to my barbecue"...much weaker and not nearly as impactful in my opinion anyway as well as after terra and the rest escape on a chocobo kefka in japanese swears when they get away i think he says son of a bitch or something im not 100% but in the english version he goes "son of a submariner" which would never be said by anyone and is ridiculous in my opinion.

I love what you all are doing as Seiken Densetsu 2 is one game that severely was in need of something like this due to the script being cut so much and because of the time limits and things imposed on translators back then. 

@ManaRedux- Before your blog went down i read you were considering a literal translation for this once this project was complete. Is that still on the table?  Also, if i could get an invite to the diacord server for this project id appreciate it as i am on discord a lot.

I also noticed saves seem to be specific version to version. Like i played a bit of 1.4 and when i downloaded 1.9 i couldnt load that save. Im sure thats normal just wanted to make sure.

Thanks again to ManaRedux and his team this is a great thing you all are doing.  :thumbsup:

reconstructingmana

#116
Quote from: OldSchoolGamer86 on March 06, 2021, 07:13:42 AM
I just joined the forum as i have just read what others have posted but i want to contribute and be a part of the community so here we are. 

First of,  i want to say from the bottom of my heart, i want to give a big thank you so much to ManaRedux and the rest of his team for undertaking such a large project and for all the effort he and his team have put into it.

I noticed his blog which i loved reading went down so i decided to post here hopefully getting his attention and answer as to why he decided to take it down. I have been playing and on the discord servers i am a member of,  informing all the people who like snes and jrpgs or specifically seiken densetsu about this.

Aside from the font everything about this project is fantasitic and the font iant even a big deal anyway just the one thing i feel could be better but i understand there was most likely a reason for as to why it was chosen. 

I am trying to learn japanese myself on my own and it is not easy... im on a few day break but i hope to get a basic understanding atleast as i love not only the japanese box art and voices when playing a game if possible but i also feel and believe we loose a good deal of story as well as other parts of games when translated both due to censorship as well as during localization.  I am someone who would prefer a direct as possible translation rather than localizations including cultural changes. Id rather have a japanese joke or pun left in as opposed to something changed completely just because its for american audiences. I feel if a games location is in japan or an asian or eastern themed area...americanized jokes and puns and things just dont fit in and for me detract from the story. I also dislike how scenes or stories get "watered down" or made to sound more child friendly taking out or replacing harsh language and things like for example in FF6 at the beginning in south figaro kefka in the japanese script when he lights tge castle on fire it alludes to him saying something along the lines of him saying something like "well you can all burn to death" or something of the sort but our craptastic version has "welcome to my barbecue"...much weaker and not nearly as impactful in my opinion anyway as well as after terra and the rest escape on a chocobo kefka in japanese swears when they get away i think he says son of a bitch or something im not 100% but in the english version he goes "son of a submariner" which would never be said by anyone and is ridiculous in my opinion.

I love what you all are doing as Seiken Densetsu 2 is one game that severely was in need of something like this due to the script being cut so much and because of the time limits and things imposed on translators back then. 

@ManaRedux- Before your blog went down i read you were considering a literal translation for this once this project was complete. Is that still on the table?  Also, if i could get an invite to the diacord server for this project id appreciate it as i am on discord a lot.

I also noticed saves seem to be specific version to version. Like i played a bit of 1.4 and when i downloaded 1.9 i couldnt load that save. Im sure thats normal just wanted to make sure.

Thanks again to ManaRedux and his team this is a great thing you all are doing.  :thumbsup:

Thank you for the kind words!

When we first launched Reborn (V1.0), we tried to keep the dialogue as close to that as possible, but the consensus was that a leaner, more natural script would be better suited to SoM.  We ended up rewriting the entire thing in the span of a few weeks, and Queue and myself spent a few months after that making more improvements, resulting in V1.10.  At the moment, there is no impetus for further revisions.

So the next release is actually Taosenai's revision of the raw translation he made for Reborn, to make it more palatable for gameplay.  Naturally, this doesn't have the additions and clarifications that were in Reborn (it's why we called that a script remaster and not just a retranslation).  I have no idea when he'll be done, but it will evolve from what you can find on the site.


Zorlac

Does this restore all the censorship of the US version back to JP? I believe the intro background also suffered from quality issues in the US release. Can this be fixed as well if it has not already been?

Looking forward to trying this out. :)

Thanks!!

lexluthermiester

Quote from: Zorlac on June 29, 2021, 08:06:45 PM
Does this restore all the censorship of the US version back to JP?
It wasn't censorship as much as it was trying to slim down the text to fit into the rom space limts of the time. Remember, English text takes up a lot more space than Japanese kanji and katakana.

Queue

Quote from: Zorlac on June 29, 2021, 08:06:45 PMDoes this restore all the censorship of the US version back to JP?
There's not actually very much censorship in this game. Off the top of my head:
- the haunted forest teleporter art was the only artwork that was censored (barely)
- Jinn's name was censored to Sylphid
- the word Holy was censored, replaced with various terms (e.g. Holy Land -> Pure Land)
- with very high likelihood, the word Temple was (generally) replaced with Palace
- with very high likelihood, the word Altar was replaced with Stage

That might be the extent of censorship in the game. As you can see, it was all religious themed things that were censored.

Kettle Kin wasn't censored, he was cut for space. His animations were in bank $CA, which is where events 0x400-0x7FF are. Since they had a very short time limit to get the game translated to English, they decided it was worth removing his animations so they had more room to work with for event text. Event 66F (and on) are where Kettle Kin's animation data was in the Japanese version.

The title screen background was also cut for space.

The Earthslide icon was changed because a catfish being the symbol for an earthquake isn't something familiar to an American audience (or maybe anywhere outside of Japan?).

And controller button colors were changed to match the SNES controller.




Reborn includes a restored Kettle Kin, anything else you may want is available to mix with Reborn via my Secret of Mana Turbo project.

While you may think of the title screen as important... it just isn't. It's a static picture that you can look at wherever.
For example: https://tcrf.net/File:Seiken_Densetsu_2-title-background.png

Within the context of the game, the typical player is going to mash buttons and skip even seeing it.

Higher resolution versions of that same artwork are breathtaking:
https://images.eurogamer.net:443/2019/articles/2019-06-17-14-30/33a8773be1793be0caafbb60287ad750.jpg
I imagine there are better sources of the picture than that.

If you really want it (or an even slightly better looking version of it via Deblocking Filter) in-game, see my Turbo project. It was deemed non-essential to Reborn's purpose (i.e. being a retranslation).