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Poll

Restored: ROM space allowing, should attacks be tallied for each weapon type used in combat? (support multiple weapon EXP for weapon swapping)

No. Restored already has passive growth, only end-of-combat weapon should receive bonus.
Yes. All weapons used in combat should receive this bonus credit.

Author Topic: Final Fantasy II Restored  (Read 186739 times)

redmagejoe

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #480 on: October 13, 2020, 02:11:01 am »
I'm still alive!

abw

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #481 on: October 13, 2020, 09:53:10 pm »
Hooray for still being alive!

Vanya

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #482 on: October 14, 2020, 07:28:05 am »
The days of our lives!

...

Sorry. I'm leaving now.

elmontro42

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #483 on: October 28, 2020, 04:46:43 pm »
Are you also working on consumable items stacking?

redmagejoe

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #484 on: November 01, 2020, 12:47:57 pm »
I do not believe if that was considered as a goal of the Restored version, but ultimately abw will make the decision on that. It's been more his project than mine for a long time now.

abw

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #485 on: November 02, 2020, 08:22:06 pm »
Unfortunately, recent real life events have all but ensured that my free time for the foreseeable future will be extremely limited, so I do not anticipate being able to return to this project any time soon :(. The semi-commented disassemblies for the original game and both hacks are posted publicly, though, so anybody else is free to carry on the work!

Chicken Knife

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #486 on: November 02, 2020, 10:16:44 pm »
Good luck navigating those challenges, abw. There are more important things in life than this exacting hobby of ours, and occasionally they need to be prioritized.

Vanya

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #487 on: November 04, 2020, 04:44:12 pm »
Good luck with whatever life may bring.
I look forward to seeing this project continue on one way or another.

redmagejoe

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #488 on: December 23, 2020, 06:00:36 am »
I'm pleased to see how far this project came, even if its future remains uncertain. At the very least, the game is in a far more playable state than it was prior to the start of this project.

I hope everyone can at least enjoy the version of the patch available here, even if no one steps up to continue the project.  :thumbsup:

gamerk2

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #489 on: January 02, 2021, 05:59:26 pm »
Just want to say I appreciate the work done on FF2; the base game even with its "quirks" was still buggy as hell, and it's nice to see after so many years someone stepped up to get the most egregious ones addressed.  Speaking as a Software Engineer who's had to code in poorly documented assembly at times (yay, pointer misalignment!) I know it's not an easy thing to do, so I appreciate the work you've all put in.

I'm currently doing a FF1 playthrough, so will likely get to FF2 sometime soonTM.  I'll almost certainly be using one of these patches when I do, so I'll let you know anything I find and my overall opinion of things.

I do have a handful of questions, however:

-What's the difference between the "Bug Fix" and "Bug Fix - No Growth Barrier" patches?  I assume growth rates for attributes/weapons/spells were adjusted in some way? [I read through the entire thread this morning; I didn't see specifics on this point]

-Should Chaos Rush's (technically yours now, I guess) translation be applied first, or one of these patches?  Or does it matter at all?

-I noticed a few pages back Leviathan Mist posted a link to his INT-Penalty rebalance patch; I assume that removes the penalty for using most weapons/armor when casting spells, similar to what was done in newer releases of FF2?  Might be worth posting that on the main page.


And remember: real life takes priority; don't burn yourself out trying to optimize every little thing under the sun to achieve "perfection".

redmagejoe

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #490 on: January 09, 2021, 04:16:34 pm »
The "no growth barrier" patch is a test patch that essentially would allow you to max spells and weapons off of goblins at the start of the game. Currently the mechanics make it such that this is impossible.

The load order for the translation doesn't matter at this point in time, as they are compatible with one another. You can apply Chaos Rush's translation (let's be sure to continue to refer to it that way as all I did was tweak things).

Leviathan Mist's patch can be added to the front page, though I'd like to make sure that it's 100% compatible with our patches first in case load order needs to be addressed.

I'm hoping someone with passion can pick up where abw and I left off, but I'm very satisfied with the state of the Bug Fix project at the very least, even if at this point Restored is too ambitious.

gamerk2

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #491 on: January 09, 2021, 06:46:06 pm »
Goodie. Just finished my FF1 playthrough, so I'll likely be giving this a try soon.

January 11, 2021, 11:06:13 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I've begun an initial playthrough using the latest version of the Restored patch.  Still early, but enough to give some initial reactions:

-I feel early game enemies start to run away far too early.  And considering how the enemy difficulty ramps up fairly quickly (especially pre-Mythril) this makes it harder then it should be to do any sort of early-game grinding.  Not sure if this could be touched up just a little bit in the future.

-I like the passive +1 Weapon/Spell growth after battles.  I'm still fairly early, but spell growth in particular is less of a pain (except for the very beginning of the game, which is still a PITA).  There's going to be grinding for some of the later spells, but I'm already finding I'm doing much less spell grinding overall compared to my last playthrough.  [That being said, this is putting  a lot of strain on MP; see below]

-HP/MP growth remains a bit of a problem.  While HP tends to normalize over time, MP growth still tends to lag a bit, even with my spells being more expensive then they normally are on average.  Sadly, the best method for increasing both remains repeated party-hit-all spells.

-I do have an idea for HP/MP growth.  My idea is that certain percentage losses for HP/MP would correspond to a certain percent chance of trigging HP/MP growth.  For example, losing 1% HP/MP might result in a 1% chance to trigger growth, but losing 10% might result in a 25% chance of triggering growth.  This type of growth model would result in HP/MP normalizing over time; as HP/MP grows you need to lose more to reliably trigger more growth.  [EG: You'd need to face stronger enemies to gain more HP, and cast more expensive magic to gain more MP].  Just an idea; not sure how hard it would be to implement in assembly.

-Finally, I did find one minor bug/annoyance: I've found a few NPCs (the ones in the prison in the Semite Mines, one of the men in Bofsk after the Dreadnaught takes off) that allow you to use the Ask/Learn/Item dialog even though none of these apply to them.

EDIT: Updated list of people with the Ask/Learn/Item dialog that probably shouldn't.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 07:34:50 pm by gamerk2 »

gamerk2

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #492 on: February 13, 2021, 02:17:18 am »
Some final thoughts, now that I finished the game (again, with the Restored patch).  Note some of these are complaints against the base-game mechanics; just pointing out some areas that could potentially be improved in future editions of the patch should you continue work on it.


1: As I noted above, there's a lot of people in the early game who give the "Ask/Learn/Item" dialog that probably shouldn't.  I know this existed in the base game, but it would be good to remove this dialog from all the NPCs who it doesn't apply to.

2: I noticed with the Aura spell especially that even at level 8+ I *rarely* got more then the Red aura when I used it.  Note I almost always used it as a group-all target, but the times I did I ever got just Red or Red/Purple Aura.  Not sure if the accuracy on it is that bad, or if there's a possible target-all issue there.  Then again, I rarely get more then four Auras when I single target anyways...

3: I don't have any hard data to back this up, but there seems to still be a targeting bias toward the third battle position.  My party was aligned Front-Back-Front-Front, and subjectively it felt like over half the targets were targeting the third position.  Of the remaining attacks, they seemed to bias the fourth position over the first.  My end game HP totals seemed to correlate this, with my third position having double the HP of everyone else, and even the last party member being second in total HP at the end.  Again, subjective.

4: While not really a "bug" per-say, MP growth remained a significant problem throughout the game.  It was mitigated somewhat once Osmose became available, but it would be nice to either bump up the rate of MP growth somewhat, or somehow allow out-of-battle spell actions to count toward future MP growth.

5: The accumulation of points towards weapons/spells was nice, but their growth flatlined around level 6.  I *think* that's because the area enemies were too weak to accumulate farther points.  Thing is, that lasted a *very* long time game wise, which led to a ton of battles even against normal area enemies (especially around Dist) that I was dependent on magic to get through.  The scaling up to about the Dreadnaught felt fine, but from there through about Mysidia Cave felt like my party basically flatlined attack power wise.  Obviously, more grinding would have helped, but considering the minimal amount that was necessary until that point, the sudden lack of growth was noticeable.

6: There remains a clear bias towards wanting Evade% over pure Defense rating.  Ran a test against Emperor with and without Genji gear equipped, and the difference was night and day.  While unparalleled in defense rating, most end-game enemies hit like trucks and that -Evade on the Genji gear results in you taking MORE damage then you would with much lighter armors equipped.  Again, base game mechanics, but it might be worth touching this up in the future if you continue working on this hack to make things like the Genji equipment less of a trap.

7: The items that were supposed to be removed from the inventory when their use was up were removed at the appropriate times.


My overall opinion is that most of the obvious bugs I can point to were successfully fixed, and the overall improvements over the base game are worth it.  That being said, FF2 remains a hilariously unbalanced game, and while some of the improvements in the Restored patch helped, there is still some *significant* work to be done if the end objective is a more balanced game.  But as far as bug fixes go, I can say that the patch accomplished that mission.

redmagejoe

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #493 on: February 17, 2021, 09:20:42 pm »
1. One of our goals, which we didn't get to before this project went on hiatus, was to address the abundance of unnecessary Ask/Learn/Item situations. Sadly, this is still incomplete, so for now it's an As Is. Sorry about that. :(

2. The base formula, which has been untouched in Restored if I remember correctly, is that the Spell Level determines the maximum number of potential successes. This means that in order to get all 8 effects from Aura, you would have to have Level 8 to 16. This, however, only "unlocks" those successes, and the number of successes that actually occur on each cast are determined by "spell power" which, if I recall, is affected by Intellect. Bear in mind that your spell power receives a malus from certain armor types, so the higher your defense / lower your evasion is, the bigger the spell power malus. People wearing full Genji Armor will almost never be worth a toss using spells, due to the inability to get high numbers of spell successes even with all spells at level 16. Target all spells also reduce the number of successes by 1, I believe, guaranteed.

3. I can assure you that while situations as you described will arise, it is operating under proper equal distribution now. In my case personally for my testing, it was actually my first character that had the most HP. Your Mileage May Vary.

4. Yes, MP growth definitely becomes an issue as the game goes on, and the base mechanics for this are unpolished. For Restored, we had been toying with the idea of something of a running growth chance as the game goes on to address these issues. Again, due to project hiatus, As Is.

5. The game definitely promotes grinding at its core due to its unorthodox mechanics, and that's something that could potentially be considered for Restored had the project continued moving forward.

6. Evasion is absolutely more effective throughout the game than defense. Even on a Restored project, my design philosophy was always extremely hesitant to take excessive liberties with game mechanics, so tweaking monster damage or the effects of defense was one of those things on the back burner. I wanted to finish Bug Fix before giving Restored much attention, but either way, here we are. You are right in your assessment between the two stats.

7. I feel that change was an incredible Quality of Life change.

As to your final note, I wholly agree regarding the game's balance but, being something of a purist, or at the very least an advocate for purists, I would prefer to leave entire rebalancing patches up to another ambitious hacker. I am very pleased that we got as far with Bug Fix as we did, and hope that people will use it as a foundation (with appropriate credit to abw and, to a lesser extent, myself given) for their patches. It really was the most important thing to me that the game-breaking bugs be addressed, and I'm proud that we were able to get to that point.

Thank you for giving it your attention and playtesting, and please tell others about this patch. :)

gamerk2

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #494 on: February 18, 2021, 10:59:22 pm »
Thanks for the responses.

Yeah, it's a hard balance between fixing what is obviously broken (which was a lot), touching up some rough mechanics, and trying to do a broader balance patch.  Just the fact that we finally have a patch dedicated to fixing the existing bugs puts FF2 in a much better spot then it was just a few years ago.  If nothing else, this serves as a potentially good starting point for anyone else who wants to tackle replacing some of the more broken mechanics with the game.

abw

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #495 on: April 04, 2021, 08:19:10 pm »
redmagejoe covered most of this already, so I'll just add a couple of extra points.

-What's the difference between the "Bug Fix" and "Bug Fix - No Growth Barrier" patches?
In the calculation for how much weapon/spell skill experience you gain, the skill's current level acts as a barrier to growth - the higher your current skill level is, the more times you need to use that skill in order to get at least 1 EXP. The "Bug Fix - No Growth Barrier" patch removes the current level from the experience calculation, so that e.g. going from level 15 to level 16 is as easy as going from level 1 to level 2.

I'm hoping someone with passion can pick up where abw and I left off, but I'm very satisfied with the state of the Bug Fix project at the very least, even if at this point Restored is too ambitious.
Given the current state of the project and my lack of time for working on it further, any objections to submitting it here? The majority of the remaining bug fixes are minor graphical glitches rather than anything that quantitatively affects mechanics, so it's probably good enough, and it's not like we can't update it later if we do manage to complete more fixes. For Restored, we could submit it as a separate entry with a giant WIP notice, or just include it as an alternate patch under the Bug Fix entry.

-I feel early game enemies start to run away far too early.
This is an issue with the original game. Even when your party has a measly total of only 90 HP, early game enemies have a non-zero chance to run away, and once you gain a few HP, it only gets worse.

-I do have an idea for HP/MP growth.
The HP/MP growth system already works basically like that, just with blunter thresholds and more randomness. The game uses the HP/MP values from the start and end of a battle to calculate the ratio of max HP/MP the character lost, and then if that ratio is >= a random number between 0 and 8, the character gains HP/MP equal to their Stamina/Magic Power. So if you lose 1/8 of your max HP/MP, you have about a 1/9 chance for growth, and if you lose 1/7 of your max HP/MP, you have about a 2/9 chance for growth, etc., up to an 8/9 chance if you lose 100% of your max MP (losing 100% of your max HP means you're dead, and dead characters gain no stats).

-Finally, I did find one minor bug/annoyance: I've found a few NPCs (the ones in the prison in the Semite Mines, one of the men in Bofsk after the Dreadnaught takes off) that allow you to use the Ask/Learn/Item dialog even though none of these apply to them.
1. One of our goals, which we didn't get to before this project went on hiatus, was to address the abundance of unnecessary Ask/Learn/Item situations. Sadly, this is still incomplete, so for now it's an As Is. Sorry about that. :(
I do remember doing this, though... *checks* ah, it looks like I had a few changes for the Bug Fix patch that hadn't been merged into the Restored patch yet, and this was one of them. Thanks for pointing it out! I've uploaded an updated patch with the missing commits.

3: I don't have any hard data to back this up, but there seems to still be a targeting bias toward the third battle position.  My party was aligned Front-Back-Front-Front, and subjectively it felt like over half the targets were targeting the third position.  Of the remaining attacks, they seemed to bias the fourth position over the first.  My end game HP totals seemed to correlate this, with my third position having double the HP of everyone else, and even the last party member being second in total HP at the end.  Again, subjective.
Another thing to keep in mind is that your equipment selection also has a very strong influence on your endgame HP totals, since better-protected characters tend to take less damage and thus gain fewer HP. Try going through the game with low evasion vs. high evasion and you'll see a substantial difference in HP, even more so if you simultaneously achieve low vs. high defense.

People wearing full Genji Armor will almost never be worth a toss using spells, due to the inability to get high numbers of spell successes even with all spells at level 16.
It's actually worse than that - a full set of Genji stuff gives a whopping -260 to spell power, which no amount of Intellect/Spirit can overcome, so anybody decked out in all that is guaranteed to get 0 successes.

Target all spells also reduce the number of successes by 1, I believe, guaranteed.
Multi-target spells take a 50% penalty to success rate and a 75% penalty to power.

Thank you for giving it your attention and playtesting, and please tell others about this patch. :)
+1 :beer:!

redmagejoe

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #496 on: April 04, 2021, 09:08:30 pm »
I will likely put it up as-is when I have some time to sit down and think about how I want to write up the submission and handle the two different patches. I think I would like to release the Bug Fix patch as a base to be used for other patching, and then put Restored up as a separate patch with the two referring to / linking to one another.

Stay tuned.

Vanya

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #497 on: April 17, 2021, 06:37:05 am »
Tuning in.

That sounds like a good plan.
Having it available will drum up interest and giving access to others is certain to result in more "testing".

redmagejoe

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #498 on: April 17, 2021, 12:25:48 pm »
The submission has been made and hopefully it goes up before long. I've linked this thread on the submission, and when it posts I'll link the submission in the first post.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Final Fantasy II Restored
« Reply #499 on: April 17, 2021, 02:20:52 pm »
I grabbed the very first download and will try to give this a spin. Which version I try now is the million dollar question...

And, it would seem I have an issue to relay before playing. I read through the extensive readme notes on the bugfix version, but for some reason, I'm not seeing any real detail there about the Restored version.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 02:34:28 pm by Chicken Knife »