Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux

[emkarta]

This thread was funny to read but I think summarizes a lot of opinions on both sides of the "purist" conflict
https://zeldauniverse.net/forums/Thread/145576-The-Legend-of-Zelda-the-one-for-the-NES-sucks/?pageNo=1


I wonder if the original devs saw the Redux patch, what would they (dis)agree with. Or if they developed Zelda 1 at around time of SMB3 technology.

[ShadowOne333]

Something I forgot to say in my previous post is that I think the progress made is awesome and something I've enjoyed following since the initial release. Thumbs up to everyone contributing here!

Hopefully I'll be able to provide more feedback with more testing. My motivation for testing the MMC1 version is mainly that I want to make a repro at some point and would rather prefer to have it running on a MMC1 cart. But for playing I'll probably give the MMC5 version a go on the EverDrive including this new swing patch :-)

Yeah having a MMC1 version was actually planned for this precise case, for people that want to run it on real hardware or make reproductions of it (I don't have anything against repros, I own a couple myself of two other hacks I've made).

That said, I highly recommend anyone willing to make repros to hold off on the MMC1 Animation code being properly debugged, fixed and properly tested in real hardware to start doing such a thing.
NesDev.com Forums are still down and I am not quite sure who might have the expertise with such a thing to possibly help debug it atm.

There is a Zelda 1 Randomizer that has an option of making screen transitions in dungeons faster (about as fast as the overworld screen transitions, and I mean from room to room, not into staircases). It would be cool if this feature were to be added into Redux.

Huh interesting, I didn't know about that.
Do you happen to have a link to that Randomizer?
I keep getting a bunch of results for Zelda Randos and don't know which is the exact one you're referring to.

Just played through the game for the first time in >20 years, with this 2.0 hack (and no guide this time). Allow me to give some feedback (apologies for not reading all 37 pages.)

The automap made exploring actually fun, it pretty much eliminated the feeling of having no idea where I was or how to get to a particular screen. The wall/bush hints were invaluable, I often overlooked shriveled bushes so good job making that subtle.

In the item menu it bugged me a bit I couldn't use up/down to move between the rows of items. The Select functionality is nice at first, but once you have >4 items or so I found it more tedious than the menu. If it only switched between certain common utility items, like Bombs, Candle, and Boomerang, it'd be more useful; it could at the least skip past the Letter/Bait/Flute. While on the topic, I'm unsure why the letter is retained after it's used. It and the bait could easily be passive items automatically used when needed.

I concur with prior suggestions of hastened dungeon screen transitions, and looking into diagonal movement. I could see the latter causing issues with balance, though.

Given the visibility of most secrets, it kind of sticks out that others aren't signposted at all, particularly pushable blocks in dungeons, and room drops when they are cleared.

Spoiler

I never found the magic boomerang; I swear I cleared every screen in Dungeon 2, which I later read is where it is. Also, there's no hint at all as to where the strength bracelet is.

[close]

An audio cue (like in LttP) or something visual to indicate these secrets would make it more even. A few hints were overly obtuse, as well.

Spoiler

I have no idea where Spectacle Rock is but I assume it's where the entrance to Dungeon 9 was. I had no idea what 'destroy the topmost boundary' meant until hours after I beat the game and checked my notes, and recalled hearing some people grouse that it's unintuitive that fire could be destroyed by your sword only in this one spot at the end of the game. I looked over every inch of what I assumed to be Death Mountain and didn't find the silver arrows, and crossed my fingers they were in Dungeon 9; the hint could be clearer they're in Ganon's Domain or something, and maybe that he's weak to them. The text that "if you're strong enough you can use this" for the sword upgrades could maybe update once you are strong enough; also it's unclear if 'strength' means more hearts or more triforce pieces.

[close]

I find it mildly amusing that people hiding under a bush chastise you for destroying the door to their house; the next time you go to an equivalent cave the door is still broken and the occupant is gone. Maybe change it to e.g. "You ruined my hiding spot. Pay up, since I'll have to move now."

I didn't realize the Magic Shield was an upgrade over the starting shield, since they looked so similar to me. Maybe make it look more distinct?

I suggest an optional rebalance patch, since the combat sticks out as being overly difficult.

Spoiler

The Darknuts and Blue Wizzrobes are particularly a PITA; maybe slow them down and/or reduce their health. Removing some enemies from some particularly busy rooms, especially when they lead to slowdown, would also help. The suggestion of minor knockback for non-damaging sword hits (against e.g. Darknuts) would help. The red candle felt a little underpowered when I got it, considering its short range. The bow was underpowered pretty much the whole game; I got silver arrows right before the final boss so that's not really a meaningful upgrade, and you can't retrieve them before you have all 8 triforce pieces so sequence-breaking isn't a solution, either.
The choice of either a heart container or red medicine is also imbalanced; it seems foolish to take the medicine over the container if it means permanently losing the latter.

[close]

I didn't try the hearts patch, but think it only affected save games? If continuing restored all your hearts too, that'd be nice. I'm wondering why there's a Retry option, since you lose all progress since your last save, unless it doesn't increment the death counter; maybe rename it to 'Revert to Last Save' to make it clearer what it does. Also 'Elimination Mode' could be renamed to 'Delete Save' so it doesn't sound like a game mode.
I, for one, didn't think diagonal sword attacks made combat too easy, although it did help a bit.

That's quite an in-depth view of the, it's really appreciated, thanks!
So if I get it right, your points summed up are:

• Item menu should detect Up/Down alongside Left/Right for selecting items, or make the Select button bypass Letter, Bait and Flute. (I'd argue against bypassing the Flute, since it has a good amount of uses in overworld, and it can also be used for attacking certain enemies exclusively for Redux).
  
• Some hints could be clearer. (Were there any pushable blocks in other 2D Zeldas?)
  
• Rebalance combat and/or encounters
  

Fair points, I'll take a look at what can be done.

The Diagonal movement stuff I tried taking a quick look into, but couldn't find anything concise yet in the code to figure out where the exact button inputs for the D-Pad are being read and where their routines are in the ROM.

[SuperFeistyFox]

Actually I've been playing with this crossover randomizer that combines Zelda 1 and Metroid 1 that has the fast dungeon scrolling option:

https://z1m1.info/

[CaptainHIT]

This thread was funny to read but I think summarizes a lot of opinions on both sides of the "purist" conflict
https://zeldauniverse.net/forums/Thread/145576-The-Legend-of-Zelda-the-one-for-the-NES-sucks/?pageNo=1


I wonder if the original devs saw the Redux patch, what would they (dis)agree with. Or if they developed Zelda 1 at around time of SMB3 technology.

It's fun to read how a 17 years old teenager in 2021 can't play a game which I played through (and also the second quest) when I was 11 years old in 1988!

[lexluthermiester]

I can confirm that MMC1 patch is glitched in Nestopia, but MMC5 is fine.

Do we know what is causing this? The main project page need an information update.

[Rabite890]

I don't know if this has been asked, but there's a hack out there that flips the entire world called Mirror Zelda. Is there any chance to incorporate it?

[ShadowOne333]

I don't know if this has been asked, but there's a hack out there that flips the entire world called Mirror Zelda. Is there any chance to incorporate it?

Wasn't aware of it, but tbh this goes out of the scope of the project to guarantee an inclusion of it.

I can confirm that MMC1 patch is glitched in Nestopia, but MMC5 is fine.

Do we know what is causing this? The main project page need an information update.

I know for a fact it's the MMC1 Animation code that's causing the glitches in real hardware and accurate emulators.
If I disable the "animation.asm" code, the entirety of the other features work just as intended and without any graphical bugs or glitches in Nestopia.

I am not sure precisely what part of the animation.asm code is the one that's causing the weird behaviour in other emus and real hardware, but I'll see if I can contact Fiskbit (the original creator of that code) to help debug this for original hardware.



EDIT:

Seems like the thing with NesDev.com was more serious than I thought:
https://twitter.com/PinoBatch/status/1441004951258415105

All in all, thanks to the efforts of the community, the forums have been mirrored and are now accessible.
This means that what Fiskbit wrote and all the posts are available in the new mirrored site of NesDev.org
You can find the specific posts about the MMC1 Animation here:
https://forums.nesdev.org/viewtopic.php?t=20858

[InAnotherCastle]

Yeah having a MMC1 version was actually planned for this precise case, for people that want to run it on real hardware or make reproductions of it (I don't have anything against repros, I own a couple myself of two other hacks I've made).

I've already thought about that and I think the MMC5 version should work with an EWROM board. At least that's what I've decided to work with after giving v2.0 a good test on the EverDrive. It's so much easier to decide to make a repro at the drop of a hat since I've gotten a Famicom for my collection. Certain games are so much cheaper, obviously, and especially for acquiring repro donors it's a lot more viable :-)

[lexluthermiester]

I know for a fact it's the MMC1 Animation code that's causing the glitches in real hardware and accurate emulators.
If I disable the "animation.asm" code, the entirety of the other features work just as intended and without any graphical bugs or glitches in Nestopia.

I am not sure precisely what part of the animation.asm code is the one that's causing the weird behaviour in other emus and real hardware, but I'll see if I can contact Fiskbit (the original creator of that code) to help debug this for original hardware.



EDIT:

Seems like the thing with NesDev.com was more serious than I thought:
https://twitter.com/PinoBatch/status/1441004951258415105

All in all, thanks to the efforts of the community, the forums have been mirrored and are now accessible.
This means that what Fiskbit wrote and all the posts are available in the new mirrored site of NesDev.org
You can find the specific posts about the MMC1 Animation here:
https://forums.nesdev.org/viewtopic.php?t=20858

Maybe it might be good to just go with the MMC5 patch set and exclude the MMC1 set on the main page until things can be sorted out.

[Johnpv]

I'm trying to play through the MMC5 version of the latest 2.0, and it just hard locks up my system constantly.  I'm playing on an Everdrive N8 Pro, in an AV Famicom with a HiDefNES mod kit installed.  I've played through a bunch of games with this set up no problem.  With this though any time I enter or leave a cave (shop or dungeon) there is a high chance for the game to hard lock. Like I have to reset the system hard lock. 

[ShadowOne333]

I've already thought about that and I think the MMC5 version should work with an EWROM board. At least that's what I've decided to work with after giving v2.0 a good test on the EverDrive. It's so much easier to decide to make a repro at the drop of a hat since I've gotten a Famicom for my collection. Certain games are so much cheaper, obviously, and especially for acquiring repro donors it's a lot more viable :-)

Oh so you made the repro out of the MMC5 version after all?
That's neat to know, how well does it work?
I might do a repro of my own with the gold cart and all later on, if the MMC1 version gets fixed for proper real hardware.

Maybe it might be good to just go with the MMC5 patch set and exclude the MMC1 set on the main page until things can be sorted out.

Thing is, the MMC1 set does work perfectly on FCEUX.
It's other emus and real hardware that struggle with it.
I could probably add a note specifying that, but I'll wait a bit before doing that.
Another thing would be to add an optional patch exclusively for the MMC1 version which removes the Animation, and that would make it work on real hardware (I supposed).

Is anyone willing to test if solely removing the Animation from the MMC1 makes it work without issues on real hardware?

I'm trying to play through the MMC5 version of the latest 2.0, and it just hard locks up my system constantly.  I'm playing on an Everdrive N8 Pro, in an AV Famicom with a HiDefNES mod kit installed.  I've played through a bunch of games with this set up no problem.  With this though any time I enter or leave a cave (shop or dungeon) there is a high chance for the game to hard lock. Like I have to reset the system hard lock. 

I'm not sure what to respond.
I haven't heard of such an issue from any other issues at all, not even others playing in real hardware with the MMC5 version, so I don't know exactly where the issue could be. Are you using optional patches?
If you are, then try booting several ROMs, each with a different set of patches applied (one with Redux alone, one with Redux + 1 optional patch, another with Redux + another optional patch, etc.)
That could help know which feature is breaking it precisely.

I can't do much to test this out, as I have never experienced such a bug in any of my playthroughs with both versions.

[Johnpv]

I'm not sure what to respond.
I haven't heard of such an issue from any other issues at all, not even others playing in real hardware with the MMC5 version, so I don't know exactly where the issue could be. Are you using optional patches?
If you are, then try booting several ROMs, each with a different set of patches applied (one with Redux alone, one with Redux + 1 optional patch, another with Redux + another optional patch, etc.)
That could help know which feature is breaking it precisely.

I can't do much to test this out, as I have never experienced such a bug in any of my playthroughs with both versions.

Yeah I have tried this.  I made 3 versions, one with just the redux, one with just disabling the diagonal swing, and one with just adding the restart with full life patch.  Doesn't seem to matter they all have this same bug of doing a hard lock up of the system like 50 - 75% of the time I enter or exit a cave. Like full hard lock, the hot key for the Everdrive stops responding.  I haven't had a chance to try the V1 of the redux but I guess that will be the next thing I do to see if that works.   

[emkarta]

Heard Everdrives don't like certain files fragmented. Maybe reformat and recopy again?

[ShadowOne333]

I've been in talks with someone really knowleadgeable in NES hacking, doing some tests and experiments in several emulators with the MMC1 Animation stuff, and it seems the issue boils down not due to the code of the Animation itself, but rather the problem seems to be due to the iNES 2.0 header that the MMC1 animation depends on.

One easy way to test this in FCEUX is by changing in a Hex editor byte 0x0B (right at the start of the file) from 09 to 07. Once you do that change and open the ROM in FCEUX, you get the same result as in Nestopia or Everdrive.
This effectively makes it so the CHR-RAM size is lowered from 32kB to 8kB.

Talking about the Everdrive...
I am not sure, but the issue could be that even the Everdrive doesn't support CHR-RAM with 32kB, either that or it defaults the iNES headers to always be 8kB instead of 32kB, which is exactly what seems to be causing the issue with the bank switching.

Even more intriguing, most people who know their stuff in NES Hacking, know that the gold standard for perfect accuracy is Mesen, and guess what? The MMC1 version works without issues on Mesen (v0.9.9.62), FCEUX (v2.4.0) and even QuickNES of all things. Nestopia (tested up to the latest v1.51.1) is one of the few that fails to work with the MMC1 version.

So what do we make out of that?
Well this means that most likely both Nestopia and the Everdrive do not handle iNES Headers 2.0, which is what is needed for this MMC1 hack to work.

What about real hardware?
Well, it all boils down to either trying the MMC1 version in other flashcarts (are there any others besides PowerPak and Everdrive?), or giving it an actual test in either a proper reproduction MMC1 PCB, or a donor MMC1 PCB.

This is why I want to ask if there are any reproduction makers following this hack, if they can make a proper test of the MMC1 version in a real NES with a reproduction/donor MMC1 board.
I know it's a bit of a stretch, but it's the only thing left to test to finally know and pinpoint if this is the EXACT issue with the MMC1 version, or if it could be something else.
If there's someone willing to help test this out, and you don't want to put yourself out there, you can contact me through PM here with no problem, I will keep the anonymity.

Please, do let me know if there's anyone that can help out with this testings.

[erpster2]

The MMC1 version works without issues on Mesen (v0.9.9.62), FCEUX (v2.4.0) and even QuickNES of all things. Nestopia (tested up to the latest v1.51.1) is one of the few that fails to work with the MMC1 version.

though Mesen is discontinued and no longer in development (archived by its creator) but a very good nes emulator

[Johnpv]

Heard Everdrives don't like certain files fragmented. Maybe reformat and recopy again?

I'll give that a try too.  I know that was a possibility with the original N8 but I thought that wasn't an issue with the pro any more. I'll give it a try though anyway.

[SuperFeistyFox]

I actually already tried the MMC1 version on my Everdrive N8 Pro and it has graphic issues (perhaps the aforementioned bank switching issue), so I have the MMC5 version working just fine on my Everdrive N8 Pro.

[Johnpv]

I actually already tried the MMC1 version on my Everdrive N8 Pro and it has graphic issues (perhaps the aforementioned bank switching issue), so I have the MMC5 version working just fine on my Everdrive N8 Pro.

What program are you using to patch the rom?  I've been using floating ips.  I've tried reformatting my SD card, tried my old Everdrive N8, tried changing some settings on my HiDefNES kit, and nothing seems to work.  I even tried using V1 of the redux to see if that would work, and no dice.  No matter what I do, I have a 90% chance that entering or exiting a cave will completely lock up the system.

When I get a chance later today I'm going to try patching it with Lunar IPS and see if that makes a difference.

[SuperFeistyFox]

What program are you using to patch the rom?  I've been using floating ips.  I've tried reformatting my SD card, tried my old Everdrive N8, tried changing some settings on my HiDefNES kit, and nothing seems to work.  I even tried using V1 of the redux to see if that would work, and no dice.  No matter what I do, I have a 90% chance that entering or exiting a cave will completely lock up the system.

When I get a chance later today I'm going to try patching it with Lunar IPS and see if that makes a difference.

Actually I used Lunar IPS and that didn't work for me either.

[lexluthermiester]

Flips and Lunar IPS are my go to patchers, but I also tested with the RHDN online patcher and the MMC1 patch was still glitched.