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Author Topic: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux  (Read 273301 times)

netux

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #720 on: September 14, 2021, 02:11:52 pm »
The sword swing is great, glad to finally seeing it working... just a thing I noticed: The animation for it uses the magical sword frame (diagonal sword) which is different to the wood and white sword.. maybe the magical sword sprite can be adjusted a bit to match the normal sword to get a smoother animation...

minucce

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #721 on: September 14, 2021, 06:28:12 pm »
Quote
I am not sure if I misunderstood something, but is the Magic Beam Align Fix you made compatible with the Sword Swing code?
https://github.com/minucce-yard/Legend_of_Zelda_NES/tree/3d5acdf95a76913e9c74d39f91552894e7135ee2/magic_beam_align

I don't remember if this had compatibility issues or not, but I wanted to make sure in case I need to drop the Magic Beam Align fix to make the Sword Swing work.

They will play nicely together until someone properly fixes the generic hitbox centering and sizing code for all weapons.

By default they're a bit wide and sometimes off-center; it applies a generic shape which works on average.

ShadowOne333

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #722 on: September 17, 2021, 10:30:30 am »
They will play nicely together until someone properly fixes the generic hitbox centering and sizing code for all weapons.

By default they're a bit wide and sometimes off-center; it applies a generic shape which works on average.

Ah I see. I think the patch you posted does include both the sword code and the magic beam align fix. so I'll keep it like that in the meanwhile.

I'll arrange everything properly in the source code, make the proper optional patches and then I'll make a proper update in the Release Page and in the Github repository for all the new changes.
Thanks again, minucce!

ifightdragons

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #723 on: September 18, 2021, 05:12:04 am »
Ah I see. I think the patch you posted does include both the sword code and the magic beam align fix. so I'll keep it like that in the meanwhile.

I'll arrange everything properly in the source code, make the proper optional patches and then I'll make a proper update in the Release Page and in the Github repository for all the new changes.
Thanks again, minucce!

After the latest update with minucce's additions, any Zelda 1 ROM I try with the MMC1 patches will produce glitched graphics. I've tried 9 different ROMs, including the standard Rev A and Rev B ROMs. I've tried the latest NoIntro ROMs, the latest 2.0 Header ROMs, as well as older ROM sets. All USA/NTSC ROMs of course. Also tried searching for a ROM with the specific CRC mentioned on the page, found it, and that yielded glitched out graphics as well.

Specifically, Link is displayed as just some numbers and letters, And all overworld elements are glitched out.

Tested on FCEUX emulator, plus on original hardware and Nt mini.

I never had this issue until the latest update.

It works perfectly well with the MMC5 patches.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2021, 08:12:31 am by ifightdragons »

Chicken Knife

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #724 on: September 18, 2021, 06:59:05 am »
I just took the time to use the diagonal sword swing for the first time. It was an interesting experience. But overall, I don't think the animation is really there yet.

The sword is extending out too far to the side and diagonally before coming to the original front position. If you think about swinging a sword in to out with the left hand, the sword won't extend as far initially because the left arm is reaching across the chest. Take a look at A Link to the Past. They got this right, where the sword length is initially shorter, then fully extends forward and remains extended through the rest of the outward arc finishing the swing.

Speaking of finishing the swing, stopping the swing strictly in the original stab position doesn't really look or feel right either. It's not a natural motion. With all this work going into a diagonal swing, I'd have liked to see a full arc where the sword moves past center and swings outward (again like ALTTP).

Last, I have some concerns about the animation frames. They don't seem very fluid in motion, with some frames being extremely close together but then highly noticeable gaps appearing before the next frame. I think more even spacing would make a difference.

Very sorry to be a nitpick. I hope these suggestions can be taken constructively. The fact this was finally implemented is extremely impressive, but it still feels a little half-baked to be a default feature IMO.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2021, 07:05:33 am by Chicken Knife »

erpster2

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #725 on: September 18, 2021, 12:42:56 pm »
while Zelda1 Redux MMC5 saves work properly in the latest Fceux git/svn builds, they are still broken (not working) with the latest WIP builds of puNES

also, playing the Zelda1 Redux MMC1 version in Nestopia (1.51.1) produces graphical glitches but the MMC5 version plays fine in Nestopia

Trax

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #726 on: September 18, 2021, 01:30:12 pm »
Personally, I am extremely against the rotational sword slash thing. I think it goes way beyond the scope of this hack, and it actually changes the way you fight enemies. I'm thinking, for example, Darknuts. How does the side sword slash react to them? It's not "quality of life" or "convenience" anymore, it's a true desire to make the game easier, and more similar to A Link to the Past or Link's Awakening, and it doesn't deliver. It's part of the core gameplay: align the sword with the enemy in front of you. What's next? Free diagonal movement? If you want that, make your own hack with that as the goal. Or play Legend of Link.

ShadowOne333

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #727 on: September 18, 2021, 03:04:14 pm »
After the latest update with minucce's additions, any Zelda 1 ROM I try with the MMC1 patches will produce glitched graphics. I've tried 9 different ROMs, including the standard Rev A and Rev B ROMs. I've tried the latest NoIntro ROMs, the latest 2.0 Header ROMs, as well as older ROM sets. All USA/NTSC ROMs of course. Also tried searching for a ROM with the specific CRC mentioned on the page, found it, and that yielded glitched out graphics as well.

Specifically, Link is displayed as just some numbers and letters, And all overworld elements are glitched out.

Tested on FCEUX emulator, plus on original hardware and Nt mini.

I never had this issue until the latest update.

It works perfectly well with the MMC5 patches.

while Zelda1 Redux MMC5 saves work properly in the latest Fceux git/svn builds, they are still broken (not working) with the latest WIP builds of puNES

also, playing the Zelda1 Redux MMC1 version in Nestopia (1.51.1) produces graphical glitches but the MMC5 version plays fine in Nestopia

It's working fine on my end with FCEUX (haven't tested in other emus).
I dusted off an old PC I had access to, got FCEUX 2.4.0 (the one with minucce's MMC5+SRAM fix) and my backup copy of Zelda 1 (PRG0), patched the MMC1 version over it, loaded it up with FCEUX and it's working with no issues whatsoever. I made this to be sure it's an absolute clean run of both FCEUX and Redux.

Just to be sure, this is the MD5 you should be getting after patching a clean PRG0 ROM with Zelda Redux MMC1 (with no optional patches):
516D910F7BDB083986A2FD2B0547F2B4

Once you get the correct MD5 checksum for the patched MMC1 Redux, try running that in several emulators.
As for puNES, I'm not sure what to say, it's a somewhat obscure emulator for me, haven't heard of it before, but the best would be to redirect the author of said emulator to the Pull Request Minucce did for FCEUX, and hopefully the devs for that emu can implement the fix themselves:
https://github.com/TASVideos/fceux/pull/400



I just took the time to use the diagonal sword swing for the first time. It was an interesting experience. But overall, I don't think the animation is really there yet.

The sword is extending out too far to the side and diagonally before coming to the original front position. If you think about swinging a sword in to out with the left hand, the sword won't extend as far initially because the left arm is reaching across the chest. Take a look at A Link to the Past. They got this right, where the sword length is initially shorter, then fully extends forward and remains extended through the rest of the outward arc finishing the swing.

Speaking of finishing the swing, stopping the swing strictly in the original stab position doesn't really look or feel right either. It's not a natural motion. With all this work going into a diagonal swing, I'd have liked to see a full arc where the sword moves past center and swings outward (again like ALTTP).

Last, I have some concerns about the animation frames. They don't seem very fluid in motion, with some frames being extremely close together but then highly noticeable gaps appearing before the next frame. I think more even spacing would make a difference.

Very sorry to be a nitpick. I hope these suggestions can be taken constructively. The fact this was finally implemented is extremely impressive, but it still feels a little half-baked to be a default feature IMO.

Personally, I am extremely against the rotational sword slash thing. I think it goes way beyond the scope of this hack, and it actually changes the way you fight enemies. I'm thinking, for example, Darknuts. How does the side sword slash react to them? It's not "quality of life" or "convenience" anymore, it's a true desire to make the game easier, and more similar to A Link to the Past or Link's Awakening, and it doesn't deliver. It's part of the core gameplay: align the sword with the enemy in front of you. What's next? Free diagonal movement? If you want that, make your own hack with that as the goal. Or play Legend of Link.

These comments are completely understandable.
Although, to me the animation does feel smooth and quite good imho. It feels good and it's satisfying on my end to slash enemies diagonally. Perhaps the animation could be smoothed out a bit more, yeah, but right now as it is, it's perfectly playable and functional, with no noticeable bugs I can notice from my hours of playing through the game.

The Darknuts still need to be hit from the sides or diagonally to be able to still damage them, they don't get hit from the sword if you are hitting them right at front.

I knew the diagonal sword swing wasn't going to be everyone's cup of tea, so that's why I added a "Disable Diagonal Sword" optional patch, so that those that want it and don't like the diagonal sword sing, can still play Redux with all the other features and keep the old stab from Zelda 1. I made sure to include this optional patch alongside the Diagonal Sword release exclusively for this very reason.
After all, having options is what drives almost all of the hacks I've worked on.

I even went out of my way to add another set of optional patches, one that flips the HUD to be the same as in original Zelda 1 for both MMC1 and MMC5 (I even had to modify the MMC5 Automap code to work with the default HUD), and another set that completely greys-out the tiles from the Automap, with the tiles still get uncovered as you reach them, but they uncover a grey tile instead (for those that didn't like Automap uncovering the overworld map as you visit it), both for MMC1 and MMC5, and also taking into consideration those that will use it for regular Redux and those that will use it with the Original HUD optional patch mentioned above.

Also, how did you know I was going to look into free diagonal movement next? :^}
(I'm obviously kidding, but I might look into it just for shits and giggles)

emkarta

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #728 on: September 18, 2021, 03:36:57 pm »
Chicken Knife has a solid point about diagonal swing mechanics (which is refreshing to use btw!). Shortening the sword would reduce the hitbox and tighten things up. I'm guessing it ends in the stab position to match the sword beam but a wider arc would feel natural.

SuperFeistyFox

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #729 on: September 18, 2021, 05:02:40 pm »
There is a Zelda 1 Randomizer that has an option of making screen transitions in dungeons faster (about as fast as the overworld screen transitions, and I mean from room to room, not into staircases). It would be cool if this feature were to be added into Redux.

minucce

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #730 on: September 18, 2021, 09:40:15 pm »
Quote from: Chicken Knife
The sword is extending out too far to the side and diagonally before coming to the original front position. If you think about swinging a sword in to out with the left hand, the sword won't extend as far initially because the left arm is reaching across the chest. Take a look at A Link to the Past. They got this right, where the sword length is initially shorter, then fully extends forward and remains extended through the rest of the outward arc finishing the swing.

Speaking of finishing the swing, stopping the swing strictly in the original stab position doesn't really look or feel right either. It's not a natural motion. With all this work going into a diagonal swing, I'd have liked to see a full arc where the sword moves past center and swings outward (again like ALTTP).

Last, I have some concerns about the animation frames. They don't seem very fluid in motion, with some frames being extremely close together but then highly noticeable gaps appearing before the next frame. I think more even spacing would make a difference.

A fair and concise summary of what's wrong with the animation; you exposed several hidden regrets I had with the look. Though I was not aware how ALTTP swing worked, which would've been more organic.

I thought the (diagonal) sprite is large and clunky to work with in a meaningful way (the gaps). Normally there is room for 3 sword frames although I imagine a 4th could be added to the list somehow.

As mentioned by @emkarta, I did end it in the stab position so it would match the post-attack frames of sword beam and putting it away; it's the sword beam that bothered me how to make appear okay.


I created the patch to know what it would feel like to use a modern Zelda game mechanic; admittedly mixed about the result (difficulty decline and simpler strategy) but it was interesting to try for awhile. Given the private backlash I had, I'm not so excited to work on it again.

Modern save / load I'd have no arguments against, other than personal time. No open commitments as my focus is elsewhere.


But I am glad that @Chicken Knife explained in detail the reasonable concerns with the animation.

Pleiades7

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #731 on: September 19, 2021, 01:01:16 pm »
A fair and concise summary of what's wrong with the animation; you exposed several hidden regrets I had with the look. Though I was not aware how ALTTP swing worked, which would've been more organic.

I thought the (diagonal) sprite is large and clunky to work with in a meaningful way (the gaps). Normally there is room for 3 sword frames although I imagine a 4th could be added to the list somehow.

As mentioned by @emkarta, I did end it in the stab position so it would match the post-attack frames of sword beam and putting it away; it's the sword beam that bothered me how to make appear okay.


I created the patch to know what it would feel like to use a modern Zelda game mechanic; admittedly mixed about the result (difficulty decline and simpler strategy) but it was interesting to try for awhile. Given the private backlash I had, I'm not so excited to work on it again.

Modern save / load I'd have no arguments against, other than personal time. No open commitments as my focus is elsewhere.


But I am glad that @Chicken Knife explained in detail the reasonable concerns with the animation.

Oh, don't listen to the haters!

The sword swing looks great! In every way. Feels just retro enough to fit while updating it in a way that makes sense.

Zelda is a masterpiece for sure, but one that has aged. Repeat bosses, wooded mechanics, and a difficulty level that is TOO hard at times.

The much coveted diagonal sword swing not only brings it in line with the other games, but liberates it! The difficulty is fairer. Clearly the original developers realized this, which is WHY in later games they gave this to us :)

It's great. Other than some tweaking with hotbox collision here and there with it, you knocked this out of the park!

This rom isn't meant for purists. It is meant for game lovers than want the ULTIMATE experience of this game. Even Nintendo themselves will revisit games to quietly fix flaws in the them. Just look at Super Mario Bros for the Gameboy Color.

In any case, you shouldn't walk away if some minor clean up needs to happen (with collision detection, etc.) The animation looks fine and feels right. So you followed your heart, and helped complete the thought on this.

Well done, sir. Well done.

September 19, 2021, 01:08:09 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Also, how did you know I was going to look into free diagonal movement next? :^}
(I'm obviously kidding, but I might look into it just for shits and giggles)

I hope you are NOT kidding.

Diagonal movement would be great! Seriously so.

Is that possible here? Or would it be too much trouble than it is worth?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 01:08:09 pm by Pleiades7 »

pleasejust

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #732 on: September 19, 2021, 05:34:03 pm »
I agree with Pleiades7. You can't expect the animation to look as good as Link to the Past. I mean, it could use improvement but it looks good enough and feels good. The main issue with it is that the game was not designed for it. So you have to counterbalance it by making the game harder in some way, like I suggested, making enemies take an extra hit. I like the idea of making the sword swing conditional. Either it engages only when you press the direction you face and attack, or stand still and attack. That way at last there is some minor condition to use it so it's not so abused such that it makes the game a cakewalk. Diagonal movement would be great, but again, the game wasn't really designed for it so other considerations must be taken. If it's for all enemies and link, that would make darknuts (and others) super hard probably if you could even figure out how to make the AI move enemies diagonally. Its a lot of work with a lot more things to consider and really changing the fundamental structure of Zelda 1. If you're down for it and can balance everything, by all means go for it. Maybe making Zelda 1 in ALttP could be a thing now with the Super Zelda editor.

InAnotherCastle

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #733 on: September 20, 2021, 07:23:43 am »
Hello,

I've just come to confirm the bug reported above with various emulators.

A clean copy of the Zelda ROM version which worked fine for v1.0 was patched with the latest v2.0. It's the MMC1 version with 3 optional patches, one of which is removal of the sword swing.

A quick test in FCEUX didn't show problems. On real hardware (EverDrive N8 Pro on Famicom AV) there's glitches from the saves menu and it only gets worse in-game. I had cleared previous saves/states just in case.



ShadowOne333

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #734 on: September 20, 2021, 11:59:15 am »
Hello,

I've just come to confirm the bug reported above with various emulators.

A clean copy of the Zelda ROM version which worked fine for v1.0 was patched with the latest v2.0. It's the MMC1 version with 3 optional patches, one of which is removal of the sword swing.

A quick test in FCEUX didn't show problems. On real hardware (EverDrive N8 Pro on Famicom AV) there's glitches from the saves menu and it only gets worse in-game. I had cleared previous saves/states just in case.

I tried in Nestopia, and I can see the issues about the graphics.

It seems to be related to the MMC1 animation from what I can tell. I tried all MMC1 versions, from v1.0 up to 2.0 from the Releases page in GitHub:
https://github.com/ShadowOne333/The-Legend-of-Zelda-Redux/releases

And from what I can see in Nestopia, the issue is present in all versions of MMC1.
I did some quick tests on what the exact culprit of this issue might be, and it all boils down to the animate.asm file.
I commented out EVERY other feature from the main.asm, leaving only the animate.asm file to be compiled, and the exact issue appears in the compiled ROM.
I also did the opposite, I tested out an MMC1 ROM compiled with everything EXCEPT the Animation code, and the issue was gone in Nestopia.

I am not sure what precisely might be causing the issue.
I'm unsure if either accurate emulators and real hardware can't handle iNES headers (since the MMC1 Animation relies on that), or if something in the Animation code is causing the bank switching in real hardware.
Here's the exact code for MMC1 Animation:
https://github.com/ShadowOne333/The-Legend-of-Zelda-Redux/blob/master/MMC1/code/animation/animate.asm

And I think these are the forum thread and posts about it:
https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?t=20858
https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20858#p262366

With that said, the Animation code was made by Fiskbit from NesDev.com. I was gonna post the exact link to the forum thread, but the forums seem to be down at the moment so I can't verify the links above (and Archive.org is down too, such luck that of mine).
Unfortunately, the Animation code technicalities are way out of my league, I am not sure I can do much to fix it myself as I lack the technical know-how to debug it properly to work on real hardware.
If someone has any clue as to what the issue could be, please by all means post a comment here, anything can be of great help.

I do wish this issue can be addressed later on, but in the meanwhile, people playing on real hardware or other non-FCEUX emulators, could use the MMC5 version instead.

InAnotherCastle

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #735 on: September 20, 2021, 01:38:46 pm »
Something I forgot to say in my previous post is that I think the progress made is awesome and something I've enjoyed following since the initial release. Thumbs up to everyone contributing here!

Hopefully I'll be able to provide more feedback with more testing. My motivation for testing the MMC1 version is mainly that I want to make a repro at some point and would rather prefer to have it running on a MMC1 cart. But for playing I'll probably give the MMC5 version a go on the EverDrive including this new swing patch :-)

lexluthermiester

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #736 on: September 21, 2021, 05:12:41 am »
Hey cool, an update! Nice!

ifightdragons

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #737 on: September 21, 2021, 09:09:37 am »
Just tried out the new sword swing mechanic. Really enjoyed it, to my surprise. Truly some great work by minucce!

mentil

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #738 on: September 22, 2021, 03:46:48 am »
Just played through the game for the first time in >20 years, with this 2.0 hack (and no guide this time). Allow me to give some feedback (apologies for not reading all 37 pages.)

The automap made exploring actually fun, it pretty much eliminated the feeling of having no idea where I was or how to get to a particular screen. The wall/bush hints were invaluable, I often overlooked shriveled bushes so good job making that subtle.

In the item menu it bugged me a bit I couldn't use up/down to move between the rows of items. The Select functionality is nice at first, but once you have >4 items or so I found it more tedious than the menu. If it only switched between certain common utility items, like Bombs, Candle, and Boomerang, it'd be more useful; it could at the least skip past the Letter/Bait/Flute. While on the topic, I'm unsure why the letter is retained after it's used. It and the bait could easily be passive items automatically used when needed.

I concur with prior suggestions of hastened dungeon screen transitions, and looking into diagonal movement. I could see the latter causing issues with balance, though.

Given the visibility of most secrets, it kind of sticks out that others aren't signposted at all, particularly pushable blocks in dungeons, and room drops when they are cleared.
Spoiler:
I never found the magic boomerang; I swear I cleared every screen in Dungeon 2, which I later read is where it is. Also, there's no hint at all as to where the strength bracelet is.
An audio cue (like in LttP) or something visual to indicate these secrets would make it more even. A few hints were overly obtuse, as well.
Spoiler:
I have no idea where Spectacle Rock is but I assume it's where the entrance to Dungeon 9 was. I had no idea what 'destroy the topmost boundary' meant until hours after I beat the game and checked my notes, and recalled hearing some people grouse that it's unintuitive that fire could be destroyed by your sword only in this one spot at the end of the game. I looked over every inch of what I assumed to be Death Mountain and didn't find the silver arrows, and crossed my fingers they were in Dungeon 9; the hint could be clearer they're in Ganon's Domain or something, and maybe that he's weak to them. The text that "if you're strong enough you can use this" for the sword upgrades could maybe update once you are strong enough; also it's unclear if 'strength' means more hearts or more triforce pieces.

I find it mildly amusing that people hiding under a bush chastise you for destroying the door to their house; the next time you go to an equivalent cave the door is still broken and the occupant is gone. Maybe change it to e.g. "You ruined my hiding spot. Pay up, since I'll have to move now."

I didn't realize the Magic Shield was an upgrade over the starting shield, since they looked so similar to me. Maybe make it look more distinct?

I suggest an optional rebalance patch, since the combat sticks out as being overly difficult.
Spoiler:
The Darknuts and Blue Wizzrobes are particularly a PITA; maybe slow them down and/or reduce their health. Removing some enemies from some particularly busy rooms, especially when they lead to slowdown, would also help. The suggestion of minor knockback for non-damaging sword hits (against e.g. Darknuts) would help. The red candle felt a little underpowered when I got it, considering its short range. The bow was underpowered pretty much the whole game; I got silver arrows right before the final boss so that's not really a meaningful upgrade, and you can't retrieve them before you have all 8 triforce pieces so sequence-breaking isn't a solution, either.
The choice of either a heart container or red medicine is also imbalanced; it seems foolish to take the medicine over the container if it means permanently losing the latter.
I didn't try the hearts patch, but think it only affected save games? If continuing restored all your hearts too, that'd be nice. I'm wondering why there's a Retry option, since you lose all progress since your last save, unless it doesn't increment the death counter; maybe rename it to 'Revert to Last Save' to make it clearer what it does. Also 'Elimination Mode' could be renamed to 'Delete Save' so it doesn't sound like a game mode.
I, for one, didn't think diagonal sword attacks made combat too easy, although it did help a bit.

InAnotherCastle

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #739 on: September 22, 2021, 09:07:04 am »
Nice review by above poster ^^

I'd also like to chime in by adding that the sword swing is actually very nice.

If I sat down with this game for the first time in years I'm not sure I'd even find it out of place :-)