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Author Topic: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux  (Read 205492 times)

blipform

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #340 on: September 11, 2020, 12:09:46 pm »
I'm wondering if it's doable to make audio hints for secret trees, rocks, walls? For sword or boomerang testing. The visual clues are great for novices but they stand out.

BlazeHeatnix

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #341 on: September 11, 2020, 10:47:24 pm »
I am thoroughly impressed by your Redux patches. You do a lot to bring these games into the 21st century. However, there are a few things I'd like to see addressed, perhaps in optional patches should you decide to keep working on this.

The first is the retranslation. I understand that you and other translation patchers want to keep consistency with the rest of the series, however in many ways you miss some old localization quirks that could be updated and in other ways, fix problems that simply aren't there.

1.) Ganon is written to be "The Prince of Darkness". This is a valid translation of 大魔王 ("Daimao"). However, modern Zelda games, most notably Ocarina of Time & A Link Between Worlds, refer to Ganon as "The Demon King".
2.) You've changed the Blue Ring and Red Ring to the Blue Tunic and Red Tunic. On paper, this makes sense, but in the Oracles duology, the Red/Blue Rings return as a nod to the first game. This connection is now lost.
3.) "Blue Potion" and "Red Potion" are not as descriptive of their actual use as "Life Potion" and "2nd Potion" are. Zelda fans are used to the Red Potion being the basic "life restore" item, while the Blue Potion would be a full restore. But in Z1, this isn't the case. They both do the same thing, but the Red Potion is just two doses of a Blue Potion. If you buy a Blue Potion while carrying a Blue Potion, it turns into a Red Potion. Hence, "2nd Potion". I would rewrite this as "Life Potion" and "2 Life Potions" or something similar.
4.) "Book of Magic" implies there are other spells besides fire that Link can learn. "Spellbook of Fire" is a rewrite that DannyPlaysSomeGames came up with for his hack, and I like it. I would also recommend removing the cross from the book considering it's no longer "Bible" (seems rather silly to have a cross on a book containing sorcery :P). All you'd need to do is remove the pixel in the middle so it looks more like a d-pad, which is what Hyrule Warriors did.
5. Minor nitpick, but perhaps "Lion Key" could be renamed back to "Magical Key" to be consistent with Zelda II.
7. Much of the retranslated dialog is missing the nuances spoken of in Mato's book, where shopkeeps speak informally and the old people talk like old people do. Instead, the script seems rather dry and straightforward. In addition, some of the hints could be adjusted to be more helpful. "You can't use arrows without a bow." Like, no shit. :P It could be rewritten to allude to the bow actually being in the dungeon.
8. Are there any plans to include the original FDS font? Or the custom (very nice-looking) font in DannyPlaysSomeGames's hack?

With your permission, I'd like to present a treatment for a rewrite of the in-game dialog.

The second thing I'd like to address is a couple things in regard to the actual gameplay.

1.) One of the biggest problems with the original game are that the Wizzrobes are an absolute pain in the ass to deal with. The issue is that no items other than your sword will work on them, leaving you with no long-range options if low on health. I would recommend making them vulnerable to at least one other item, perhaps the rod.
2.) I understand you want burnable trees to have their own tiles. However, this raises the question of how you'll address the entrance to Level 8. That should remain a complete secret, otherwise the hint for its location would be meaningless.

gzip

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #342 on: September 11, 2020, 11:06:52 pm »
I would recommend making them vulnerable to at least one other item, perhaps the rod.

I wanted to make this change in A New Light as well (I would love to kill Wizzrobes with their own weapon) but I suspect it will make them vulnerable to each other. That would be fun to watch but not great for gameplay. Then again, maybe I'm overthinking it and it's a straightforward change. :laugh:

ShadowOne333

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #343 on: September 11, 2020, 11:07:34 pm »
I'm wondering if it's doable to make audio hints for secret trees, rocks, walls? For sword or boomerang testing. The visual clues are great for novices but they stand out.

Possible?
Yeah it is, but really, REALLY cumbersome to actually implement,

I am thoroughly impressed by your Redux patches. You do a lot to bring these games into the 21st century. However, there are a few things I'd like to see addressed, perhaps in optional patches should you decide to keep working on this.

The first is the retranslation. I understand that you and other translation patchers want to keep consistency with the rest of the series, however in many ways you miss some old localization quirks that could be updated and in other ways, fix problems that simply aren't there.

1.) Ganon is written to be "The Prince of Darkness". This is a valid translation of 大魔王 ("Daimao"). However, modern Zelda games, most notably Ocarina of Time & A Link Between Worlds, refer to Ganon as "The Demon King".
2.) You've changed the Blue Ring and Red Ring to the Blue Tunic and Red Tunic. On paper, this makes sense, but in the Oracles duology, the Red/Blue Rings return as a nod to the first game. This connection is now lost.
3.) "Blue Potion" and "Red Potion" are not as descriptive of their actual use as "Life Potion" and "2nd Potion" are. Zelda fans are used to the Red Potion being the basic "life restore" item, while the Blue Potion would be a full restore. But in Z1, this isn't the case. They both do the same thing, but the Red Potion is just two doses of a Blue Potion. If you buy a Blue Potion while carrying a Blue Potion, it turns into a Red Potion. Hence, "2nd Potion". I would rewrite this as "Life Potion" and "2 Life Potions" or something similar.
4.) "Book of Magic" implies there are other spells besides fire that Link can learn. "Spellbook of Fire" is a rewrite that DannyPlaysSomeGames came up with for his hack, and I like it. I would also recommend removing the cross from the book considering it's no longer "Bible" (seems rather silly to have a cross on a book containing sorcery :P). All you'd need to do is remove the pixel in the middle so it looks more like a d-pad, which is what Hyrule Warriors did.
5. Minor nitpick, but perhaps "Lion Key" could be renamed back to "Magical Key" to be consistent with Zelda II.
7. Much of the retranslated dialog is missing the nuances spoken of in Mato's book, where shopkeeps speak informally and the old people talk like old people do. Instead, the script seems rather dry and straightforward. In addition, some of the hints could be adjusted to be more helpful. "You can't use arrows without a bow." Like, no shit. :P It could be rewritten to allude to the bow actually being in the dungeon.
8. Are there any plans to include the original FDS font? Or the custom (very nice-looking) font in DannyPlaysSomeGames's hack?

With your permission, I'd like to present a treatment for a rewrite of the in-game dialog.

The second thing I'd like to address is a couple things in regard to the actual gameplay.

1.) One of the biggest problems with the original game are that the Wizzrobes are an absolute pain in the ass to deal with. The issue is that no items other than your sword will work on them, leaving you with no long-range options if low on health. I would recommend making them vulnerable to at least one other item, perhaps the rod.
2.) I understand you want burnable trees to have their own tiles. However, this raises the question of how you'll address the entrance to Level 8. That should remain a complete secret, otherwise the hint for its location would be meaningless.

I'm all up for suggestions!
I wanted to take Mato's first book for reference, but sadly I don't have it nor can give me the luxury of buying it right now.
If you have suggestions for certain texts, drop them by. More so if you happen to know Japanese.
Just keep in mind that this is trying to give a close faithful translation of the Japanese script, unless some references to certain things have been changed in subsequent franchise entries, like names or references.

BlazeHeatnix

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #344 on: September 11, 2020, 11:26:10 pm »
I wanted to take Mato's first book for reference, but sadly I don't have it nor can give me the luxury of buying it right now.
I bought his book. If there's any information you think you might be interested in, ask away. I can't exactly throw the PDF at you...

Just keep in mind that this is trying to give a close faithful translation of the Japanese script, unless some references to certain things have been changed in subsequent franchise entries, like names or references.
I'm aware of that. Which is why I point out things like Ganon's title, or the Rings: those never "changed" to the tunics, hence Oracles using them. You also have to keep in mind certain things like "Secret is in the tip of the nose", a tip added due to playtesting revealing it's not exactly obvious one of the blocks in that room is pushable. While I can respect wanting to strictly keep to the Japanese text, I also want to stress the Japanese text is not perfect.

Either way, I will have something written up and sent your way via PM for review.

ShadowOne333

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #345 on: September 14, 2020, 07:40:55 pm »
Thanks to the great help of Bogaa and more assistance by SpiderDave, it is now possible to replace the cracked wall tiles I've been using for the Dungeons to be overwritten by new tiles that will only be used in the Overworld.
So basically, the burnable tree sprite will be loaded on the Overworld only, and when you enter a Dungeon, the tiles will be replaced with the cracked walls for Dungeons.

This is how it looks like in-game right now:


Just be mindful that optional patches like New GFX might not work properly with this new tree graphic, I'll see about implementing that later when we know that this implementation is bugfree.

Also, thanks to this implementation, I think we have the possibility of just one more 16x16 tile for overworld graphics free, which could be used for either pushable rocks, tombs or Armos statues. But if you ask me, I think burnable trees and cracked walls is more than enough as far as visual hints, the Armos are easy enough to just touch and they move, and pushable rocks/tombs I'm unsure.

The patches are in the usual location (GitHub/OP).
Let me know what do you guys think, and/or if you have a better suggestion for the burnable tree sprite.

lexluthermiester

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #346 on: September 15, 2020, 01:49:16 am »
This is so cool! Nice!

BlazeHeatnix

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #347 on: September 15, 2020, 02:33:41 am »
It looks nice and it compliments the other tiles in the game, but I'm worried it sticks out like a sore thumb a bit too much. I don't have a solution for that, though.

Perhaps something more subtle. Maybe those dots decorating the trees could be a different color. Something that doesn't immediately trigger a "yup that's a secret area all right" response.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 03:18:17 am by BlazeHeatnix »

Trax

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #348 on: September 15, 2020, 02:52:17 am »
The dead tree is nice, graphically, but it's definitely not a secret to be found anymore. It's just a spot to be burned, with a guaranteed cave underneath.

ifightdragons

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #349 on: September 15, 2020, 05:02:00 am »
While the graphics of the tree looks great, I have to agree with the others that it kind of ruins the entire mystery and discovery of the overworld.

A nice compromise would be to use the same types of trees that's already everywhere, but maybe in a slightly different color that signifies it's dead. Maybe a slightly shade darker or a hint of brown. Something that makes distinguishing between the normal and dead trees a biiit harder, but not impossible. Just a subtle color difference.

Anyway, just a suggestion. I'm happy with whatever route you decide to take.

lexluthermiester

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #350 on: September 15, 2020, 05:23:43 am »
Perhaps instead of a new type of tree, maybe just a tree with a slightly different colour scheme?

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #351 on: September 15, 2020, 10:29:28 am »
My suggestion would be to just rearrange the pattern of the dots on the regular tree sprite. Simple and subtle.
Somebody alert me when a user friendly BS Zelda hacking tool is made. I will give my soul to work on a faithful SNES remake of Zelda 1.

ShadowOne333

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #352 on: September 15, 2020, 02:28:09 pm »
I do understand the complaints about the dry tree sticking out too much.
I kinda agree with it. I suggest the users here to contribute mockups of other possible sprites for the tree.
Anything is possible, even the change of palette like some people said.

However, there are some points I want to touch upon:
  • Having a somewhat visible hint could help to avoid randomly spamming flames all around the overworld.
  • While indeed the current dry tree sticks out too much, don't forget that Zelda 1 also has fake secrets. There's the old man that tells you to pay for the broken entrance, so even if the secret sticks out, if you go flames blazing, you can still end up being punished for it.
  • Changing ONLY the palette of the tree has its drawbacks as well. We are limited to basically two colours for the trees only, brown or green, and remember some sections of the game use brown trees by default (i.e. Lost Woods). Any of the other 2 possible colours end up looking bad in the overworld:

So as you can see, not even changing the palette is a good option for this.
I would like to ask for help for possible mockups for the tree.
I'm thinking of maybe a similar tree but with fewer foliage to represent a dying-out tree with leaves falling, but I'm open for suggestions for this tree sprite.

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #353 on: September 15, 2020, 06:15:11 pm »
A other idea is to make the recorder change the palette/graphic of burnable trees. Then you can also choose what tree should be reviled.
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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #354 on: September 15, 2020, 10:40:16 pm »
I do understand the complaints about the dry tree sticking out too much.
I kinda agree with it. I suggest the users here to contribute mockups of other possible sprites for the tree.
Anything is possible, even the change of palette like some people said.

Some of these might be too over the top, but I suppose you could always merge one of them with the regular tree tile.
Too much? Like one of them? You decide.

pleasejust

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #355 on: September 15, 2020, 11:13:57 pm »
I do understand the complaints about the dry tree sticking out too much.
I kinda agree with it. I suggest the users here to contribute mockups of other possible sprites for the tree.
Anything is possible, even the change of palette like some people said.


I don't think it's that complicated, man. Just change some pixels around, maybe more or less shade. It doesn't matter that much, as long as it's more subtle.

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #356 on: September 15, 2020, 11:39:32 pm »
A boring, modest proposal. Fire below the one you can, you know, burn.


In-game mockup:
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 11:53:31 pm by Shadic »

ifightdragons

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #357 on: September 16, 2020, 07:13:14 am »
A boring, modest proposal. Fire below the one you can, you know, burn.


In-game mockup:


Really fantastic proposals, IMHO. It's very subtle, yet completely possible to discern the difference if you're vigilant and paying attention :D

DannyPlaysSomeGames

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #358 on: September 16, 2020, 01:07:31 pm »
I decided to take a jab at creating my own subtle bush/tree sprite.

I hope this helps for ideas!
Hey there

BlazeHeatnix

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Re: Zelda 1 Redux / The Legend of Zelda Redux
« Reply #359 on: September 16, 2020, 06:06:16 pm »
I decided to take a jab at creating my own subtle bush/tree sprite.

I hope this helps for ideas!

The problem with only changing the "dots" on the trees is it'd be very hard to notice at lower resolutions and I wouldn't want to encourage eye strain for players scanning trees for abnormalities.

The dots being removed entirely, however, could work.