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Author Topic: Mega Man 3 Doc Robot Rework  (Read 4322 times)

Thirteen 1355

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Mega Man 3 Doc Robot Rework
« on: September 24, 2019, 09:58:17 am »
Heya,

Since I got sick of Needle Man's Doc Robot stage, I decided to change up the one part I detest so much: The gap in the second half of the level. You can't make it across the gap without any pickups, and you certainly cannot permit yourself to lose a life anywhere nearby. Therefore, I have decided to shorten the Rush Jet part and make the first part of the gap passable without Rush Jet.

Here's the result:
https://youtu.be/57aeocI3fpc

Anyone got some suggestions on changes/improvements?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 11:47:42 am by Thirteen 1355 »
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PowerPanda

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Re: Mega Man 3 - Mega Man 3 - Needle Man Doc Robot Gap Removal
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2019, 10:38:49 am »
A small, but nice change. I made a couple of similar tweaks on my Megaman X Capsule Remix hack, extending a ledge here, adding a ladder there. When are you submitting this to the hack page?

Thirteen 1355

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Re: Mega Man 3 - Mega Man 3 - Needle Man Doc Robot Gap Removal
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2019, 10:48:09 am »
Ah yes, the Capsule remix hack. Next time I play X, I will play it that way :thumbsup:
I changed a bit more and will release it once I've worked my final thoughts over it. I simply decided to edit this while I was playing through it myself, using the MM3 Improvement hack. I actually need to apply the changes to the original version before I can release it proper.

Another thing I recall is that Gemini Man's Doc Man stage has a similar situation, concerning Rush Marine. I might tackle that one before releasing the patch.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 11:29:07 am by Thirteen 1355 »
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Artemis

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Re: Mega Man 3 - Mega Man 3 - Needle Man Doc Robot Gap Removal
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2019, 11:31:01 am »
However, the changes on display don't really address the real issue with these segments. That is, if you lack the weapon energy, you cannot do forced Rush segments. You even are forced to use Coil or Jet right at the beginning.

A better solution is to make weapon refill capsules respawn upon dying.

Thirteen 1355

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Re: Mega Man 3 - Mega Man 3 - Needle Man Doc Robot Gap Removal
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2019, 11:41:54 am »
Fair enough. However, this edit gives the player about three attempts before Rush Jet has been completely drained.

I actually did consider a patch that makes weapon energy respawn, but this would create a problem of either:
- Inconsistency with the other games
- (if you choose to make the same change to all other games) unbalancing of the portions that do work better without a respawn

I made a weapon refill patch, that makes weapon energy fully restore upon losing a life. I made that patch for all NES Mega Man games, solely with this (and MM2's Wily Stage 4) portion in mind. However, since you cannot even traverse the gap with one full Rush Jet bar, this had no effect at all. THAT aspect has been solved. A full bar of Rush Jet energy carries you across the required segment. You don't HAVE to rely on the weapon refill pickups, therefore you have improved chances of survival even though you've already picked them up on your last attempt.

Some changes have been made on the section:
https://youtu.be/UmjQm9i5CLQ
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Artemis

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Re: Mega Man 3 Doc Robot Rework
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2019, 12:00:52 pm »
Seriously, this issue is one of the biggest oversights Capcom has made with Classic Megaman.

Especially if you have mandatory Rush segments or mandatony weapon usage in boss battles. Hell, in Doc Gemini's stage you're even softlocked if you have no Rush energy after the first boss (unless you have a second controller and know that secret trick).


A weapon refill patch surely would be awesome, also for those in mind who plan to make hacks so that they actually can design better Rush segments.

Thirteen 1355

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Re: Mega Man 3 Doc Robot Rework
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2019, 12:04:36 pm »
I will release it once I have tested the entire game with the patch applied (which I was doing until I stumbled upon this hellhole).
One for original MM3 and one for Kuja Killer's Improvement hack (my god I forgot how much flicker the original had).
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Artemis

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Re: Mega Man 3 Doc Robot Rework
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2019, 12:07:52 pm »
The new version actually makes the beginning worse. In the old version you could at least farm energy from the dragonflies. However, now if you die with no energy left and respawn there with the capsule already taken, all you can do is to kill yourself.

Thirteen 1355

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Re: Mega Man 3 Doc Robot Rework
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2019, 12:08:44 pm »
Oh that's a good point. Will change that.
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Metalwario64

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Re: Mega Man 3 Doc Robot Rework
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2019, 12:23:32 pm »
Hell, in Doc Gemini's stage you're even softlocked if you have no Rush energy after the first boss (unless you have a second controller and know that secret trick).
That happened to me in my first playthrough of Mega Man 3, and before that I was considering it better than Mega Man 2. That nearly ruined the game for me.

Thirteen 1355

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Re: Mega Man 3 Doc Robot Rework
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2019, 01:25:26 pm »
Decided to remove the required Rush Jet altogether, since it has turned out to be the same in Gemini's Doc stage (but with Rush Marine there, obviously).

I submitted the hack!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 02:23:49 pm by Thirteen 1355 »
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Artemis

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Re: Mega Man 3 Doc Robot Rework
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2019, 08:00:10 pm »
Does the hack also cover the forced Rush Coil segments like the aforementioned one in Doc Gemini's stage?

Besides, you actually can traverse the whole Rush Jet section without collecting capsules if you have enough energy. The trick is to constantly jump so that you lose less energy. I assume for example TheSkipper1995 build his Doc Needle stage with that knowledge in mind so that you cannot really get stuck there.

Thirteen 1355

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Re: Mega Man 3 Doc Robot Rework
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2019, 03:19:36 am »
Yes I added an extra tile right after Flash Doc's boss room. I also extended the platforms over the water in the room after.
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gadesx

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Re: Mega Man 3 Doc Robot Rework
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2019, 02:10:22 pm »
There's a bug in MM3 (and Wily wars version)

After defeat 8 robots.
Gemini stage, after beat the
first boss, you need Rush.
There's no way to continue because they put a high wall.
You will need reset.
Usually you reach that part with
Rush coil and jet with full power.
It's a map design bug.

I know another bug in WW.
I will talk about if it's undocumented or something,
Megadrive - Wily wars
Megaman 2 - Wily castle 2
Start and go to the stairs in right part, if you press jump+left in that stairs, you fall,
the map doesn't scroll and you die. I didn't tested this with the Nes version.

Thirteen 1355

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Re: Mega Man 3 Doc Robot Rework
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2019, 04:45:57 pm »
There's a bug in MM3 (and Wily wars version)

After defeat 8 robots.
Gemini stage, after beat the
first boss, you need Rush.
There's no way to continue because they put a high wall.
You will need reset.
Usually you reach that part with
Rush coil and jet with full power.
It's a map design bug.

Yep, I changed that in my hack!
https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4683/


I know another bug in WW.
I will talk about if it's undocumented or something,
Megadrive - Wily wars
Megaman 2 - Wily castle 2
Start and go to the stairs in right part, if you press jump+left in that stairs, you fall,
the map doesn't scroll and you die. I didn't tested this with the Nes version.
Veeery interesting.
Helicoptering about till I find some ROM hacking treasure.

acediez

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Re: Mega Man 3 Doc Robot Rework
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2019, 10:02:36 am »
What about placing weapon energy items that always show up, even if you already took them and died? Ideally, a separate object type, so it doesn't change the behavior of items in the rest of the game (I don't actually know how stage objects work, and what it would take to make this change, I'm just imagining it)

I just think it's a shame to completely lose the few sections designed around the mobility subweapons, when really it wouldn't be an issue if you could assure you'll always have enough weapon energy to give them a fair shot.

Thirteen 1355

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Re: Mega Man 3 Doc Robot Rework
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2019, 10:23:28 am »
What about placing weapon energy items that always show up, even if you already took them and died? Ideally, a separate object type, so it doesn't change the behavior of items in the rest of the game (I don't actually know how stage objects work, and what it would take to make this change, I'm just imagining it)

I just think it's a shame to completely lose the few sections designed around the mobility subweapons, when really it wouldn't be an issue if you could assure you'll always have enough weapon energy to give them a fair shot.

I actually was about to look into this, but then I heard you could actually get across the Needle revisit gap without collecting any weapon restore... thingies, by constantly jumping on Rush Jet. For me, this meant that I could keep retrying thanks to my own weapon refill patches (which restore weapon energy when you lose a life). Personally I don't really need a circumvention anymore, but it'd still be nice to look into making respawning refill items at some point.
Helicoptering about till I find some ROM hacking treasure.