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Author Topic: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations  (Read 33663 times)

Neon Streetlight

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #100 on: July 09, 2019, 06:06:38 pm »
No worries. I appreciate your support for the project, and while I do this for fun as a hobby (and experience), I should still take other people’s opinions into consideration. I’m not capable of fixing a bunch of bugs in a NES game with questionable coding to begin with (FF1 has a lot more hardcoded strings than FF2 and FF3 which is a little annoying), but I’m more than capable of porting text from one version of a game to another since I’ve already written programs that do that.

I recently played through the original Famicom FF1 on my Japan 3DS via Virtual Console, and I enjoyed it for what it is (well actually it sucked that there were no Hi-Potions LOL). I guess what I’m saying is, when I finish my project I hope that people can appreciate FF1 for what it is, but I understand many people already spent their childhoods playing the original FF1, and playing the same buggy game with a marginally better script doesn’t provide much value, so because of that I’m willing to provide... options ;)

July 09, 2019, 03:02:13 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Somehow I missed this post, in fact some posts don’t seem to appear for me right away. Oh well.

Thank you for your comments! I do appreciate it because I’ve worked really hard to improve my Japanese in recent years, and I’ve been told as recently as a few months ago that my Japanese sounds like “grammatically correct translated-from-English Japanese” which personally sucks to hear for me because I do have a Japanese background and it’s kinda part of my identity and stuff that I’ve struggled with for years (when you're half-Japanese you're kinda held to a higher standard than others trying to learn the language). I know what I said might seem irrelevant because these are English-language based projects (and why I’m doing this at all), but it means a lot to me simply due to related things I’ve been told in the past.

With that said, as you play FF3 keep in mind that I really had to cram the text in there and squeeze out every bytes of free space, so the language in that isn’t as elegant as I’d like it to be (lots of contractions and trying to get the point across with as little words as possible). I’m proud that I made very few omissions (only very irrelevant stuff, like characters that say “Thank you” twice in the Japanese version say it once in my translation) and was able to retain all of the points expressed by characters, but again some more space would’ve been nice. I couldn’t get DTE compression working in battle screens but maybe in a future update I can figure it out, giving the story text a little more breathing room.

My project plans for now are:

1. Finishing the FF1 translation
2. Addendum patches for Grond’s FF and FFRestored
3. Update the FF2 translation since I’m better at compressing text than I was 3 years ago, and do something about that magic menu
4. Update the FF3 translation (hopefully get DTE compression working in-battle and squash a text display bug related to it)
5. Port the FF1 and FF2 translations over to the FF1+2 multicart
6. Maybe do something with FF4 SFC or FF4 GBA

(The FF3 update might come sooner than where I listed it though)

In a couple weeks I’m gonna get busy with IRL work, so these projects will take a while.

I’m excited about this list! When you update FF2, there’s a typo I found a while ago that II’ll find for you for a quick fix.

Masaru

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #101 on: July 10, 2019, 12:36:28 pm »
Not to veer too off-topic regarding FF4 but you can’t “restore” the colors in the battle backgrounds from the GBA version because they were redone completely and there’s no reference material to restore it to, but they’re still overtly bright because it’s a GBA game. It’s not pixel art, it’s already a downscaled painting/drawing to begin with. And most of the battle backgrounds from the PSP version seem to be based off of the same source paintings/drawings that the GBA version used, just not brightened. Either way the PSP battle BG’s is the only thing closest to reference colors for the GBA battle BG’s.
Sorry if this off-topic and im back to awnser this again,
but If leaves me with the intrigue of why not edit the GBA backgrounds colors from scratch using the PSP BG's as a reference, if it's not possible why not use the WSC backgrounds instead.

Chaos Rush

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #102 on: July 10, 2019, 01:44:09 pm »
Sorry if this off-topic and im back to awnser this again,
but If leaves me with the intrigue of why not edit the GBA backgrounds colors from scratch using the PSP BG's as a reference, if it's not possible why not use the WSC backgrounds instead.
Again, the GBA FF4 battle BGs is NOT pixel art, it’s a downscaled painting/drawing, and is LZ77-compressed and displays uses a multipalette tilemap. Editing each and every color entry would take a really long time, and the final result would look almost exactly the same as just inserting the PSP backgrounds to begin with. Sure, the PSP backgrounds redid a lot of them, but they did it in a way that kept the same 'feel' of the original background while also making it look closer to the actual surrounding environment.

The FF4 WSC backgrounds can’t be used because they are at a lower resolution than the GBA so they would have to be upscaled, not to mention the WSC version uses pixel-art backgrounds instead of downscaled images like the GBA and PSP version does.

Why are you so against using the PSP backgrounds in the GBA version when both of them already use downscaled backgrounds from larger source paintings to begin with?

Take a look for yourself:

FF4GBA: https://www.spriters-resource.com/game_boy_advance/finalfantasy4advance/sheet/5235/

FF4PSP: https://www.spriters-resource.com/fullview/50889/

July 10, 2019, 03:39:28 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
On a different note, I’d like to hear your guys’ thoughts regarding terminology.

Up to this point, when doing FF2 and FF3, for items, characters, etc., I strictly used the terminology used in the remake versions that were officially released in English by Square Enix, and only made exceptions when the name is too long and had to abbreviate it (such as the “Thor’s Hammer” item which I named “Mjölnir” in FF1 and FF3 due to Mjölnir being the actual name of Thor’s hammer in Norse mythology. If there was enough space I would just call it “Thor’s Hammer” of course)

With that said, there’s something I’m internally debating regarding the Four Fiends, who are referred to as the Four Chaos(4つのカオス) in the Japanese version, sharing a connection with the final boss Chaos, who shares the same name in both the Japanese version and English versions.

Part of me thinks I should just stick with the term used in the official localizations, no ifs and buts. But calling them “Four Fiends” loses the name connection to Chaos. In the Japanese versions of FF1, you travel through the world defeating the Four Chaos, ultimately leading to the final boss Garland, who becomes THE Chaos. Meanwhile in English versions of FF1, you travel through the world defeating the Four Fiends, ultimately leading to the final boss Garland, who is now called Chaos for some reason.

The options I have are:

1. ”The Four Chaos” - call them exactly what the Japanese version calls them, though it may sound awkward in English

2. “The Four Fiends of Chaos” - keeps the connection with Chaos while also keeping somewhat of a connection to the canon English name, letting them still colloquially be referred as the “Four Fiends”

3. “The Four Chaos Fiends” - same connotations as #2 just worded slightly differently

4. “The Four Fiends” - just use the canon name, but sadly loses the connection to the final boss

What do you guys think? For now I’m sticking with “The Four Fiends” just to be on the safe side, but I want to hear the opinions of Final Fantasy fans who grew up with the series (I didn’t play a FF game until my late teens)

I worry that calling them anything else besides the Four Fiends would cross a line that I haven’t crossed up to this point, but at the same time I want to preserve any connections that were present in the original game that were lost in the localizations.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 04:04:58 pm by Chaos Rush »
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91-MPH

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #103 on: July 10, 2019, 04:04:53 pm »
Four Fields of Chaos has a catchy tune to it.

A perfect balance of the original and the localized.

Also, how do I redo my vote...?
I messed up... ^^;

Cavery210

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #104 on: July 10, 2019, 04:07:01 pm »
I think you can go with the Four Chaoses. After all, the Four Fiends are known as the Four Heavenly Kings (or the Shitennou), not the Four Chaoses.

Chaos Rush

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #105 on: July 10, 2019, 04:10:11 pm »
I think you can go with the Four Chaoses. After all, the Four Fiends are known as the Four Heavenly Kings (or the Shitennou), not the Four Chaoses.
From what I could find, that’s only in later FF’s. In FC FF1 they’re always referred to as the Four Chaos.

(unrelated but shitennō is also the Japanese name of the Elite Four from Pokémon lol)
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91-MPH

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #106 on: July 10, 2019, 04:10:24 pm »
I think you can go with the Four Chaoses. After all, the Four Fiends are known as the Four Heavenly Kings (or the Shitennou), not the Four Chaoses.

Let's not forget, this is a port of the recent localized script for the original NES/Famicom version.

Chaos Rush

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #107 on: July 10, 2019, 04:14:54 pm »
Let's not forget, this is a port of the recent localized script for the original NES/Famicom version.
?
It’s not. The Japanese GBA/PSP/iOS versions of FF1 changed/expanded a bunch of lines. Therefore I can’t abridge the Dawn of Souls script if I’m trying to represent the original FC version of FF1 (some of those extra stuff made it into FFR, for instance in the FC version of FF1 past-Garland never mentions that he was a knight of Corneria, that’s only in the remake versions but it was included in FFR). And no I’m not using that script analysis by that one guy, it is way too literal and unnatural even if that was the intention. I’m translating myself but I’m still looking at what the official versions did of course.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 04:22:55 pm by Chaos Rush »
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Rodimus Primal

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #108 on: July 10, 2019, 04:38:27 pm »
While you are directly translating the Japanese version, I think it is best to go with official current localization for things like this. It's why I chose The Warring Triad in Woolsey Uncensored instead of the Three Warring Gods. I've always called them the Four Elemental Fiends, but the Four Fiends still works. We know they work for Chaos in the end, but the mystery to the player I don't think is revealed until later in the game. (I could be wrong though)

Also, while you are looking at the translation, I do recommend referencing all of the official releases of the game if you can to help  smooth things out if you're not doing so already.

Heaven Piercing Man

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #109 on: July 10, 2019, 05:33:19 pm »
I vote for the Four Fiends of Chaos, because it includes the original title, you're just adding context to it, they're still the Four Fiends for short.


(unrelated but shitennō is also the Japanese name of the Elite Four from Pokémon lol)
Off topic: Shitennou "four heavenly kings" is a common trope rooted in Buddhist mythology, whenever you see a quartet of bosses/villains/gods/whatever, expect them to be called Shitennou in Japanese. The Elite Four in Pokemon, Bison/Balrog/Vega/Sagat in Street Fighter II (Sagat leaves and is replaced with FANG in SFV), the FF4 Archfiends, etc. Tomato did an article on the trope

91-MPH

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #110 on: July 10, 2019, 05:47:39 pm »
?
It’s not. The Japanese GBA/PSP/iOS versions of FF1 changed/expanded a bunch of lines. Therefore I can’t abridge the Dawn of Souls script if I’m trying to represent the original FC version of FF1 (some of those extra stuff made it into FFR, for instance in the FC version of FF1 past-Garland never mentions that he was a knight of Corneria, that’s only in the remake versions but it was included in FFR). And no I’m not using that script analysis by that one guy, it is way too literal and unnatural even if that was the intention. I’m translating myself but I’m still looking at what the official versions did of course.

I meant in names and terminologies. I didn't mean to take the word script specifically.

Sorry if I misspoke. >.<

Neon Streetlight

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #111 on: July 10, 2019, 06:24:27 pm »
I’m a fan of including “chaos” in their title, and I have never personally cared for the name “Four Fiends.” However, “The Four Chaos” doesn’t sound grammatically correct (even though it is) because we don’t typically pluralize that word. “The Four Chaoses” is also grammatically correct, and sounds more natural to me. Is it typical to pluralize カオス in Japanese?

Chaos Rush

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2019, 06:34:52 pm »
I meant in names and terminologies. I didn't mean to take the word script specifically.

Sorry if I misspoke. >.<
No worries, sorry about my misunderstanding.

I’m a fan of including “chaos” in their title, and I have never personally cared for the name “Four Fiends.” However, “The Four Chaos” doesn’t sound grammatically correct (even though it is) because we don’t typically pluralize that word. “The Four Chaoses” is also grammatically correct, and sounds more natural to me. Is it typical to pluralize カオス in Japanese?
They’re referred to in Japanese as 4つのカオス (よっつ の カオス)and the way pluralization works in Japanese in most cases doesn’t modify the word itself unlike English. If “Chaoses” is grammatically correct then I guess I can go with that if people vote for it.

Personally I’m leaning towards “The Four Fiends of Chaos” but the votes are showing just “The Four Fiends”. Maybe I’ll make a “canon patch”(Fiends) and a “non-canon patch”(Fiends of Chaos) lol. (Which is more important, polls or discussion?)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 06:39:58 pm by Chaos Rush »
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star_scream1646

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #113 on: July 10, 2019, 06:58:43 pm »

Off topic

Does anyone know if similar PS1 covers exist for Final Fantasy 7-9? I saw over at the Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition thread, Rodimus Primal posted similar looking box art for Final Fantasy 4 and 5. And over at Final Fantasy VI Woolsey Uncensored Edition thread someone posted a cover for FFVI similar to those, all 6 look great so it would be nice if FF7-9 had similar covers. 

Edit:
Forgot to mention that when I mean "similar covers", I am referring to covers for FF7-9 that have Amano's art work. I know he did not provide much art for the Final Fantasy series after 6, but was wondering if anyone might know of any fan-made covers for FF-7 that uses the little art he did provide for those games.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 08:20:14 pm by star_scream1646 »

BlazeHeatnix

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #114 on: July 10, 2019, 07:15:13 pm »
Discussion is better than a poll because you need actual reasoning behind changes, not just votes. People will vote for something purely out of nostalgia, rather than logic.

I don't like "The Four Fiends of Chaos" since that seems very wordy at a glance. "The Four Fiends" has a certain catchy ring to it that's worth keeping, but the word "Fiends" does not really need to stay. It may be canon, but it's worth noting that their Japanese title has never reappeared in any other games since outside games like Dimensions, and even in English the only vague reference is the group in FF4 called the "Archfiends". Even in IX, the original four are not referred to as the Four Fiends. Instead, they are called the "Chaos Guardians", which is another possible name for them. One name I came across is that the Mystic Quest group equivalent is called the "Vile Four". So "Chaos Four" would be a good usage.

I recommend either sticking with "The Four Fiends" to not alienate anybody, "The Chaos Guardians" for consistency with IX, or "The Chaos Four" as the best possible localization of the original name.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 07:29:23 pm by BlazeHeatnix »

Vanya

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #115 on: July 10, 2019, 07:16:13 pm »
EDIT: Ninja'd by BlazeHeatnix.

Doesn't the "no" in the Japanese text signify ownership/association?
So if I may be as literal as possible, their title is "The 4 of Chaos" or "Chaos' Four"?
Doesn't really roll off the tongue.

I'm pretty used to The Four Fiends.

Looking at the other games in the series the only recurring title for these 4 is 四天王 (Shitennō), and the only reason it was used in FFMQ is because of FF4, and they aren't even the same characters.
So really, they is no recurring title.

That said, I'm gonna go ahead and suggest "The Fiends of Chaos".
I dropped the 'Four' because it just feels awkward.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 07:22:40 pm by Vanya »

DavidtheIdeaMan

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #116 on: July 10, 2019, 07:19:06 pm »
Question,will there be gameplay improvements for the second & third game?

Chaos Rush

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #117 on: July 10, 2019, 07:32:10 pm »
Discussion is better than a poll because you need actual reasoning behind changes, not just votes. People will vote for something purely out of nostalgia, rather than logic.

I don't like "The Four Fiends of Chaos" since that seems very wordy at a glance. "The Four Fiends" has a certain catchy ring to it that's worth keeping, but the word "Fiends" does not really need to stay. It may be canon, but it's worth noting that their Japanese title has never reappeared in any other games since outside games like Dimensions, and even in English the only vague reference is to the group in FF4 called the Archfiends. Even in IX, the original four are not referred to as the Four Fiends. Instead, they are called the "Chaos Guardians", which is another possible name for them.

One name I came across is that the Mystic Quest group equivalent is called the "Vile Four". I recommend "The Chaos Four".
Interesting, I’d never played a FF game past 4, so I didn’t know about how the “four evil monsters” concept is used in the rest of the series. I’ve looked at the FF wiki article that calls it the Four Fiends, and I’ve played the DS version of Chrono Trigger in English which I recall uses the “fiend” term for a group of characters.

I do like the ring of “The Chaos Four”.

Doesn't the "no" in the Japanese text signify ownership/association?
So if I may be as literal as possible, their title is "The 4 of Chaos" or "Chaos' Four"?
Doesn't really roll off the tongue.

I'm pretty used to The Four Fiends.

Looking at the other games in the series the only recurring title for these 4 is 四天王 (Shitennō), and the only reason it was used in FFMQ is because of FF4, and they aren't even the same characters.
So really, they is no recurring title.

That said, I'm gonna go ahead and suggest "The Fiends of Chaos".
I dropped the 'Four' because it just feels awkward.
Yes those would be the literal titles, but like you said they don’t roll off the tongue, hence why the official localizations call them “Four Fiends” in the first place.

Now I’m starting to understand why people debate about FF6 and Chrono Trigger so much lol. I’m already not liking the can of worms I’ve opened so maybe I should just stick with “Four Fiends” since that’s what’s official. But I’ve only brought this up today so I won’t decide now, I’ll just see how discussion plays out over the next several days(weeks?). I do want to throw the word “Chaos” somewhere in the script in association with the Four Fiends, since the Japanese version sets up the Four Chaos leading to Garland as the final Chaos. Hmm what to do... EDIT: I’m leaning towards “the Chaos Four” or “the Chaos Guardians” now. But let’s see how discussion plays out. EDIT2: Lol nevermind

Question,will there be gameplay improvements for the second & third game?
These are translations, not hacks. I may or may not make a hack in the future since I’m replaying the original trilogy and have ideas, but this thread in particular is purely about translations. And I believe a couple gameplay improvement patches for FF3 already exist that should be compatible with my translation patch.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 09:01:53 pm by Chaos Rush »
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BlazeHeatnix

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #118 on: July 10, 2019, 08:33:10 pm »
One thing you learn in localization is that if you start changing things fans have known since it was branded into their brains at childhood, you're going to piss them off. When I edited the script for Mega Man Zero 2 to change Elpizo's name to Elpis (his original Japanese name) I got nothing but flak for it. Even after justifying the change, people were still pissed off. People just don't like having things changed after being used to them for so long.

FF4 DS had no problem changing "Elemental Lords" to "Archfiends" because that was never really a memorable term for that group. People usually just referred to each individual fiend by name rather than the whole group. But "The Four Fiends" was catchy, and it was all over Nintendo Power and schoolyard talk back in the day, so of course none of the re-releases renamed them. It's kinda like changing "I, Garland, will knock you all down!"

So maybe renaming The Four Fiends just isn't worth it.

Chaos Rush

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Re: Final Fantasy NES Trilogy Translations
« Reply #119 on: July 10, 2019, 08:49:20 pm »
One thing you learn in localization is that if you start changing things fans have known since it was branded into their brains at childhood, you're going to piss them off. When I edited the script for Mega Man Zero 2 to change Elpizo's name to Elpis (his original Japanese name) I got nothing but flak for it. Even after justifying the change, people were still pissed off. People just don't like having things changed after being used to them for so long.

FF4 DS had no problem changing "Elemental Lords" to "Archfiends" because that was never really a memorable term for that group. People usually just referred to each individual fiend by name rather than the whole group. But "The Four Fiends" was catchy, and it was all over Nintendo Power and schoolyard talk back in the day, so of course none of the re-releases renamed them. It's kinda like changing "I, Garland, will knock you all down!"

So maybe renaming The Four Fiends just isn't worth it.
You’re right. If I called them anything other than The Four Fiends it would go against everything I’ve done so far regarding FF2 and FF3.

Four Fiends it is. I regret bringing this up at all lol. Now I’ve opened a can of worms, and I could’ve just called them Four Fiends, not say anything, and nobody would’ve had an issue with it.

Like everything I’ve done so far, when it comes to terminology I’m going to stick with what Square Enix uses regardless of whether or not I personally agree with it.
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