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Author Topic: Secret of Mana: World of Balance  (Read 6696 times)

DragonArk

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2019, 05:59:32 pm »
Has anyone ever made a comprehensive list of the things that were obviously cut?  Paths that don't go anywhere, story-lines that aren't finished, etc?

Does the Japanese manual have anything that's not on tcrf?

I did a little bit of research in the past and looked at all footage and all the maps and put my findings here - http://acmlm.kafuka.org/board/thread.php?id=7789
but I think it would be impossible to restore the past work. What I meant was actually expand it to what we think it should have been.

Sorry for being off topic Queue. Just an idea, what if you made the magic do multiple status ailments like 'doomtrain' from ff8 if you played it (poison, confuse, death, etc), so even if it misses it has a chance at least do something else.

Or another idea, remove the lvl 8 powerful magic and have it as a stand alone 'summon' (so magic and summon would be stand alone in menu) which uses much more ap. Probably a useless idea but just throwing it out there :)

Vanya

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2019, 06:08:54 pm »
Isn't all the 'spirit' magic in the game already a sort of summon spell? :P

I actually like the idea of having control over the more powerful versions of the spells.
If a more 'ff summon'-like animation could be added for them, then that would be sick and epic.

Timbo

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2019, 07:08:35 pm »
Sorry for being off topic Queue. Just an idea, what if you made the magic do multiple status ailments like 'doomtrain' from ff8 if you played it (poison, confuse, death, etc), so even if it misses it has a chance at least do something else.

Or another idea, remove the lvl 8 powerful magic and have it as a stand alone 'summon' (so magic and summon would be stand alone in menu) which uses much more ap. Probably a useless idea but just throwing it out there :)

Isn't all the 'spirit' magic in the game already a sort of summon spell? :P

I actually like the idea of having control over the more powerful versions of the spells.
If a more 'ff summon'-like animation could be added for them, then that would be sick and epic.

It's not a problem. Also, I'm Timbo. Queue is doing Secret of Mana: Turbo. I won't be restoring any of the cut story. Chrono Trigger already did that and that bar is mighty high.

As far as Magic goes, I can't really modify the spells in this way. I have figured out what I'm going to do. I'm scrapping the instant death version of Evil Gate because it's too tricky to nerf. That said, I realized today that while Evil Gate might be an underwhelming option for Popoi, it's actually great for Primm.

New Spell Effects:

Gnome
Diamond Missile: 40 Power, 2 MP
Earthquake: 55  Power, 3 MP
Slow: Slow Status, 1 MP
Stone Saber: Gnome Element, Inflicts Petrify, 3 MP
Quick: Accuracy Buff, Evasion Buff, Charge Speed Buff, 4 MP
Protect: Defense Buff, 2 MP

Undine
Ice Smash: 40 Power, 2 MP
Acid Storm: 40 Power, Poison Status, 3 MP
Drain: 40 Power, Steal HP, 3 MP
Ice Saber: Undine Element, Inflicts Freeze, 3 MP
Healing Water: 40 Power, Healing Effect, 2 MP
Refresh: Removes Negative Status, 1 MP

Salamander
Fireball: 40 Power, 2 MP
Explode: 55 Power, 3 MP
Lava Wave: 40 Power, Attack Debuff 2 MP
Flame Saber: Salamander Element, Inflicts Burn, 4 MP
Blazing Wall: Burn Status, 3 MP
Fiery Cocktail: 40 Power, 2 MP

Jinn
Air Blast: 40 Power, 2 MP
Thunderbolt: 55  Power, 3 MP
Confuse: Confuse Status: 2 MP
Thunder Saber: Salamander Element, Inflicts Confuse, 3 MP
Balloon: Balloon Status, 2 MP
Analyze: Scan for traps, detect weakness, 1 MP

Luna
Energy Ball: 40 Power, Defense Debuff, 3 MP
Absorb: 40 Power, Steal MP, 1 MP
Lunacy: Random Effects, 5 MP
Moon Saber: Imbue w/ Steal HP, 4 MP
Half Eclipse: 50% HP Damage, 2 MP
Rush: Attack Buff, Evasion Debuff 2 MP

Dryad
Burst: 100 Power, 8 MP
Sleep Flower: Sleep Status, 2 MP
Manaburn: Spoiler, 10 MP
Revive: Revoves Ghost Status, 10 MP
Reflect: Magic Reflection Buff, 6 MP
Mana Magic: Spoiler, 1 MP

Shade
Evil Gate: 40 Power, 2 MP
Dark Force: 55 Power, 3 MP
Dispel: Remove all Buffs, 4 MP

Wisp
Holy Saber: Wisp Element, Inflicts Balloon, 4 MP
Saint Beam: 55  Power, 3 MP
Twinkly Barrier: Damage Negation Buff, 4 MP

DragonArk

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2019, 08:53:58 pm »
Sorry, Timbo I mean! Just to be clear the multiple status effect i was talking about was about evil gate. The name evil gate just reminds me of something like pandoras box, afflicting almost all status effects at once. I'm happy for it to be a damage spell for primm though, love using damage spells with her.
Damn, I was thinking having it so it unlocks the spell after u reach level 8 for each spell, but if you can't do it, all good :)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 09:02:57 pm by DragonArk »

Shade Aurion

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2019, 09:04:06 pm »
Wait, Primm gets Shade and Poipoi gets Lumina now?

Timbo

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2019, 09:19:17 pm »
Wait, Primm gets Shade and Poipoi gets Lumina now?

I think you're confusing Luna and Wisp (Also known as Lumina) No, In Seiken Densetsu 3 Luna has a spell called Half-Eclipse that does the exact same thing as Evil Gate. It'll look different but it'll function like Evil Gate aka Demi aka Gravity. In other games in the Mana Series, Moon Energy is called Energy Ball and in some of them it's an attack spell. Handing Half-Eclipse to Primm and Energy Ball to Popoi in no way breaks the 4th wall or even the setting.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 01:36:53 am by Timbo »

Shade Aurion

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2019, 01:36:46 am »
Either way sounds awesome to me TBH XD
I love the way you think

Thanatos-Zero

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2019, 04:18:57 pm »
So... When comes Secret of Mana: World of Ruin?  :P

Vanya

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2019, 09:04:20 pm »
Ha! I thought the same thing.

Shade Aurion

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2019, 03:57:22 am »
Probably when someone wants the Balanced Leveling as an optional patch XD

Timbo

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2019, 06:28:51 pm »
With the exception of getting Dispel to work on Lucid Barrier, I'm finished with spells. One of the things I did with Relocalized was to add more flavor to spell descriptions. My original plan for World of Balance was to eschew the flavorful descriptions in favor of statistical ones. However, the system that I came up with is pretty space efficient so I have room for some truncated spell descriptions.

The descriptions are limited to 43 characters so they aren't exactly Shakespeare. I can still modify them or change them up. Let me know what you guys think about the spell changes and the descriptions.

Spell Descriptions:
Spoiler:

Gnome

Diamond Missile: 2 MP, 40 Power. Slice with sharp diamonds.
Earthquake: 3 MP, 55 Power. Crush with falling rocks.
Slow: 1 MP, Inflicts Slow. Entangle with vines.
Stone Saber: 3 MP, Imbues Weapon with Earth & Petrify.
Quick: 4 MP, Buffs Accuracy, Evasion, & Charging.
Protect: 2 MP, Buffs Defense.

Undine

Ice Smash: 2 MP, 40 Power. Pummel with ice storms.
Acid Storm: 3 MP, 40 Power, Inflicts Poison.
Drain: 3 MP, 40 Power, Steals HP.
Ice Saber: 3 MP, Imbues Weapon with Water & Freeze.
Refresh: 1 MP, Removes Status Effects.
Healing Water: 2 MP, 40 Power, Restores HP.

Salamander

Fireball: 2 MP, 40 Power. Sear with balls of fire.
Explode: 3 MP, 55 Power. Rock with exploding force.
Lava Wave: 3 MP, 40 Power, Debuffs Attack.
Flame Saber: 4 MP, Imbues Weapon with Fire & Burn.
Fiery Cocktail: 2 MP, 40 Power. Envelope in scalding fire.
Blazing Wall: 3 MP, Inflicts Burn. Encircle with flames.

Jinn

Air Blast: 2 MP, 40 Power. Shred with forceful winds.
Thunderbolt: 3 MP, 55 Power. Summon powerful lightning.
Confuse: 2 MP, Inflicts Confuse. Dazzle and dizzy.
Thunder Saber: 3 MP, Imbues Weapon with Wind & Confuse.
Balloon: 2 MP, Inflicts Stun. Exhaust awareness.
Analyze: 1 MP, Reveals information, Disables traps.

Luna

Energy Ball: 3 MP, 40 Power, Debuffs Defense.
Absorb: 1 MP, 40 Power, Steals MP.
Lunacy: 5 MP, Random Effects. Cast curious chaos.
Moon Saber: 4 MP, Imbues Weapon with Moon & Steal HP.
Half Eclipse: 2 MP, 50% HP. Damage. Transmute vitality.
Rush: 4 MP, Buffs Attack & Debuffs Evasion.

Dryad

Sleep Flower: 2 MP, Inflicts Sleep. Lull to slumber.
Burst: 8 MP, 100 Power. Blast with secret energy.
Manaburn: 10 MP, ? Power, Bypasses Reflect.
Revive: 10 MP, Revive allies from Death.
Reflect: 6 MP, Spell Reflecting Ward.
Mana Magic: 1 MP, Restores the Mana Sword.

Shade

Evil Gate: 2 MP, 40 Power. Unleash waves of darkness.
Dark Force: 3 MP, 55 Power. Discharge dark energies.
Dispel: 4 MP, Dispels buffs, wards & weapons.

Wisp

Holy Saber: 4 MP, Imbues Weapon with Light & Stun.
Saint Beam: 3 MP, 55 Power. Pierce with sacred light.
Twinkly Barrier: 4 MP, Attack Nullifying Ward.

Visually, I had to swap some effects and icons around to make things work a little better.
  • Diamond Missile: (Gem Missile). This is now the first spell in the Popoi's Gnome list. Like all of the other 2 MP attack spells, this now sits in the first position and has 40 power. This mirrors a change made in Seiken Densetsu 3.
  • Earthquake: (Earth Slide). This is now the second spell in the Popoi's Gnome list. Like most of the other 3 MP attack spells, this now sits to the right of its 2 MP counterpart and has 55 power. This mirrors a change made in Seiken Densetsu 3.
  • Energy Ball: (Moon Energy) This spell got shifted from Primm to Popoi. It replaces Transform (Change Form). It uses a palette swapped Saint Beam (Lucent Beam) icon. Its original flexing bicep icon is no longer appropriate as it's no longer a positive status buff. Both Energy Ball and Transform are game breaking spells and required change.
  • Half-Eclipse: Uses the icon from Rush (Lunar Boost). This icon vaguely resembles the one from it's Seiken Densetsu 3 Counterpart and makes more sense than a rabite or a muscly bicep. It's graphical effects were swapped with Tranform's yellow smoke.
  • Rush: (Lunar Boost). This spell now uses Energy Ball's flexing bicep icon. This spell moved left to Luna's third position to accommodate for Half-Eclipse which, like Primm's other attack spells, sits in the 2nd spell position.
  • Manaburn: (Mana Magic). Popoi's new spell uses a new icon of symmetrical sparkles similar to its graphical effect.

Again, the main thing I'm looking for here is feedback on these text changes. Is this good, bad, meh? This is your chance to voice your opinion.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 06:51:24 pm by Timbo »

Shade Aurion

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2019, 07:42:58 am »
That all sounds pretty cool to me man. Much more consistent with the series and much more balanced. I'm looking forward to trying them out ^_^

Timbo

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2019, 12:04:26 pm »
I've finally finished my list of spells. As of right now, I've moved on from getting Dispel to work on Twinkly Barrier, in the future I might come back to this but right now, it's a black hole of experimentation that I've lost interest in. The names and descriptions of these spells are final. The Spell Power and MP Cost are subject to change. I'm pretty proud of this. It took a lot of thought and revision to squeeze so much into such limited space.

Gnome
Diamond Shards : 2 MP, 40 PWR, Shred foes with sharp gems
Earthquake     : 3 MP, 55 PWR, Bury foes under rockslides
Slow           : 1 MP, SLOW foes with entangling vines
Stone Saber    : 3 MP, Imbue Weapons with EARTH & PETRIFY
Quick          : 4 MP, Buff ACCURACY, EVASION & CHARGING
Protect        : 2 MP, Buff DEFENSE, Safeguard allies

Undine
Ice Smash      : 2 MP, 40 PWR, Pummel foes with Ice storms
Acid Storm     : 3 MP, 40 PWR, POISON foes with vitriol
Drain          : 3 MP, 40 PWR, STEAL HP, Syphon foes' life
Ice Saber      : 3 MP, Imbue Weapons with WATER & FREEZE
Refresh        : 1 MP, Recover allies from Status Effects
Healing Water  : 2 MP, 40 PWR, Restore HP, Heal Allies

Salamander
Fireball       : 2 MP, 40 PWR, Roast foes with fireballs
Explode        : 3 MP, 55 PWR, Rock foes with explosions
Lava Wave      : 3 MP, 40 PWR, Debuff ATTACK, Immolate foes
Flame Saber    : 4 MP, Imbue Weapons with FIRE & ABLAZE
Fiery Cocktail : 2 MP, 40 PWR, Scald foes with flame
Blazing Wall   : 3 MP, Engulf foes in BLAZING walls of fire

Jinn
Air Blast      : 2 MP, 40 PWR, Shred foes with strong winds
Thunderbolt    : 3 MP, 55 PWR, Strike foes with lightning
Confuse        : 2 MP, CONFUSE foes with disorienting magic
Thunder Saber  : 3 MP, Imbue Weapons with WIND & CONFUSE
Balloon        : 2 MP, STUN foes with devitalizing magic
Analyze        : 1 MP, Reveal Information, Disable traps

Luna
Energy Ball    : 3 MP, 40 PWR, Debuff DEFENSE
Absorb         : 1 MP, 40 PWR, STEAL MP, Syphon foes' mana
Lunacy         : 5 MP, Conjure chaos upon friends and foes
Moon Saber     : 4 MP, Imbue Weapons with MOON & STEAL HP
Half Eclipse   : 3 MP, Reduce foes Current HP by half
Rush           : 2 MP, Buff ATTACK, Debuff EVASION

Dryad
Sleep Flower   : 2 MP, Lull foes into deep peaceful SLEEP
Burst          : 8 MP, 100 PWR, Blast foes with inner power
Manaburn       : 10 MP, ? PWR, Bypasses Reflect
Revive         : 10 MP, Recover allies from DEATH's grasp
Reflect        : 6 MP, Protect allies by redirecting magic
Mana Magic     : 1 MP, Temporarily restore the Mana Sword

Shade
Evil Gate      : 2 MP, 40 PWR, Unleash darkness upon foes
Dark Force     : 3 MP, 55 PWR, Ignite foes with dark energy
Dispel Magic   : 4 MP, Dispels buffs, Weapons, & Reflect

Wisp
Holy Saber     : 4 MP, Imbue Weapons with LIGHT & STUN
Saint Beam     : 3 MP, 55 PWR, Smite foes with sacred light
Twinkly Barrier: 4 MP, Protect allies by nullifying attacks

Timbo

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2019, 11:04:36 am »
Just felt like sharing a little something I cooked up. I've designed a simplified level system loosely inspired by Final Fantasy IV. In World of Balance stat growth is severely reduced after level 50. This change is made to preserve a balanced level of difficulty against the game's monsters and bosses but still leave a little reward for the completionists out there. Think of these as trophy levels.

Additionally, I've modified how spellcasting works. Intelligence is now the primary casting stat for both Primm and Popoi and will now simply be called Magic. Spirit is now used entirely for Magic Def. in the same way that Fortitude is used entirely for Defense.

To keep the characters balanced, I gave them each a pool of 260 points to spread between stats their max level stats. I valued one of these points as equivalent to 10 HP, 1 Strength, 1 Agility, 1 Fortitude, 1 Magic, or 1 Spirit. I made MP equal to level because I felt that having to double purchase for magic was too much of a nerf to spellcasters. Starting stats were based on one of two growth rates.

Randi's build completely neglects magic. He gets a +5% bonus to his innate Critical Hit Rate to compensate for his lack of magical versatility. Initially I had Randi set with a 0 in magic but the lowest number the status screen can display is a 1. So, I took his 10 leftover points and dumped them there. I thought I would start him with a 10 and never grow it to show that he no potential with magic.

Code: [Select]
Randi
Lv HP  MP St Ag Fo Ma Sp
 1  50 00 15 15 15 10 15
50 450 00 45 45 45 10 45
99 500 00 50 50 50 10 50

Critical Hite Rate 10 %
Primm focuses on being a front line fighter with enhanced physical defensive stats which compliment her support based magical abilities. The idea is to encourage her to use her buff spells.

Code: [Select]
Primm
Lv HP  MP St Ag Fo Ma Sp
 1  50 01 15 15 15 15 10
50 350 50 40 40 40 40 35
99 400 50 45 45 45 45 40
         +05+15+15+05    ---> Endgame equipment bonuses
Critical Hite Rate 5 %

Popoi's build has low Strength and Fortitude and high Agility, Magic, and Spirit. The idea is for Popoi players to stay out of physical confrontations in favor of long ranged ones where they can safely sling spells.

Code: [Select]
Popoi
Lv HP  MP St Ag Fo Ma Sp
 1  50 01 05 15 15 15 10
50 350 50 30 45 40 45 35
99 400 50 35 50 40 50 45
         +05+10   +10+15---> Endgame equipment bonuses
Critical Hite Rate 5 %

Thoughts?

Shade Aurion

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2019, 02:20:56 pm »
260 points seems a bit low to spread out at lv99 but that's me just being cautiously skeptical. I mean the whole point is to maintain balance and level of difficulty after all so its really something i'd have to see in action. As long as i'm not getting destroyed by werewolves and other enemies with multiple hits or others that glitch when you attack them mid attack animation and repeat powerful hits it should be fine. Reviving and healing constantly is a bummer but every now and then is fine.

It sounds like you've really thought about this and so far your judgment has been great so i'll just have to check it out. I mean, it is the 'World of Balance'  :)

Timbo

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2019, 04:43:00 pm »
260 points seems a bit low to spread out at lv99 but that's me just being cautiously skeptical. I mean the whole point is to maintain balance and level of difficulty after all so its really something i'd have to see in action. As long as i'm not getting destroyed by werewolves and other enemies with multiple hits or others that glitch when you attack them mid attack animation and repeat powerful hits it should be fine. Reviving and healing constantly is a bummer but every now and then is fine.

It sounds like you've really thought about this and so far your judgment has been great so i'll just have to check it out. I mean, it is the 'World of Balance'  :)

If you look a like closer you'll see that the bulk of those numbers are spread out at level 50. From level 51 to 99 stats only grow a total of 5 points. That 260 doesn't include the extra 50 from stats.

Even in vanilla, I've never experienced a party wipe going though the final dungeon at level 50 with the final shop's gear.

The goal here is to get players using Primm's magic for something other than healing and to hopefully use up their items. Her buffs will hopefully be useful here.

World of Balance also uses hacks from the Gameplay Improvement Project and Turbo such as preventing enemies from stacking damage on you while you're healing.

Shade Aurion

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2019, 05:04:43 pm »
Oh nice, well when you put it like that, it seems fine. I was just concerned. I think I generally was lv55-60 once I reached the Mana Fortress and tended to level there til 85-90 before end game. Which seemed to take forever. Maybe you can lower the exp values to truly signify lv99 as being a completionist thing while only adding minor stat improvements. TBH if the damage stacking is removed, with all the new equipment and spells, it'll probably still be reasonably difficult but not hard or easy just in a totally different way to the standard release and to be honest, that all sounds like a good thing  :)

I'm super keen to play this XD

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2019, 09:56:02 pm »
Thoughts?
In a word? Excellent! In more words, seems like a great project!

The only thing I disagree with is the "No HP/MP restore at level up" as this can cause issues in early parts of the game. However, that's a minor complaint and the rest sounds simply exceptional!

Timbo

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2019, 10:37:35 pm »
In a word? Excellent! In more words, seems like a great project!

The only thing I disagree with is the "No HP/MP restore at level up" as this can cause issues in early parts of the game. However, that's a minor complaint and the rest sounds simply exceptional!
Don't worry. I intend to make sure that you won't have to rely on leveling to heal your party.

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana: World of Balance
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2019, 11:32:10 pm »
Don't worry. I intend to make sure that you won't have to rely on leveling to heal your party.
Are you going to throw in the "9 item" mod or something similar? That would be very handy.