Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 231108

[hmsong]

Yeesh.  What the heck.  That's a lot of changes.  Thanks for the update.  I checked out all the recent implements (as much as I'd know how).  They all work as intended.

[IndianaRoy]

Hey, this a great project. Definitely the best way to play. Thanks

I noticed that in the installer the "Harder Final Boss" is with version 1.3. Is the 1.4 version incompatible?

[Queue]

Nope, I had just not noticed there was a version 1.4. The only change was bumping their max mana from 99 up to 255, and I've already incorporated it for the next Turbo release. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[Faty100]

Is there any way to edit the SOM of Turbo?

say I want to add double exp and Som hard mod?

[Faty100]

Trying to download the SOM Turbo latest release and it just keeps saying full capacity?

Do I need to keep trying or is this glitched?

[hmsong]

For Reborn event 358~35F, most of them says, "Responded to xxx", but for Sylphid and Salamando (35A, 35B), it says, "Reacts to xxx".  Not only different words, but also different tense.  I'm guessing that was unintended.

[Queue]

Faty100, double (or other) experience is available via Balance\Monster_Stat_Modifiers (which is On by default, and with 2x exp by default).

Secret of Mana Hard Mode by Masterflow is generally not compatible with Turbo (like, if you apply both to the same ROM) unless you only use a very minimal set of features from Turbo. I've never gotten around to integrating it into the Turbo patcher, because it's decently big and complex, so the compatibility fixups would be a lot of work, and I wouldn't personally use it, so rather low priority.

I just tried the download and it didn't give me a problem. You're trying the https://www.sendspace.com/file/4rfpf6 link in the first post I assume? I keep the first post updated with the newest download link whenever I update.



hmsong, it's intended due to character limits.

Responded to Sylphid's magic!
...is 29 characters. Salamando is even longer. 28 is the limit per line with fixed width.

Responded was a more accurate translation. Reacts is a compromise for the two mana spirits with long names.

[hmsong]

I see.  Have you considered making it two lines?  Like:

Code Select Expand


TEXT ^R e s p o n d e d _ t o \n
TEXT ^S a l a m a n d o


That way, if you combine this with Relocalized (Salamando becomes Salamander, which is a longer name), you'll have a response ready.  Also, I personally think present tense sounds better (so "Responds to xxx").  Just a thought.

[Queue]

When I finally get to working on compatibility between Reborn and Relocalized again, any changes would just be in the compatibility fixups. So, like, different wording or line breaks would be part of the compatibility fixup itself, so that Reborn (and Relocalized) remains as-is. When working on that text in Reborn, we decided, for whatever reason (I no longer recall why) to keep the analyzer messages short enough to fit on one line.

No changes are currently planned for Reborn beyond V1.11. Not saying it's impossible, just that we're happy with how it is at the moment.

I've temporarily put the collision changes on the backburner while I'm grinding through a different idea that's been rattling around in my head for like a year. It's even more work than I expected, but proceeding nicely so I expect it to be a success. Unfortunately, I'm busy this weekend; it's a holiday where I live and it's going to have me occupied from Friday through Monday. =/ So don't expect anything for at least another week. I guess a teaser won't hurt since I'm pretty sure it'll pan out:

[hmsong]

When I finally get to working on compatibility between Reborn and Relocalized again, any changes would just be in the compatibility fixups. So, like, different wording or line breaks would be part of the compatibility fixup itself, so that Reborn (and Relocalized) remains as-is. When working on that text in Reborn, we decided, for whatever reason (I no longer recall why) to keep the analyzer messages short enough to fit on one line.

No changes are currently planned for Reborn beyond V1.11. Not saying it's impossible, just that we're happy with how it is at the moment.

Ahh.  Gottya.  I'm not finding any "error" in v1.11, so I can see why you would be happy with it.

I've temporarily put the collision changes on the backburner while I'm grinding through a different idea that's been rattling around in my head for like a year. It's even more work than I expected, but proceeding nicely so I expect it to be a success. Unfortunately, I'm busy this weekend; it's a holiday where I live and it's going to have me occupied from Friday through Monday. =/ So don't expect anything for at least another week. I guess a teaser won't hurt since I'm pretty sure it'll pan out:

Wahhhhhhh!!!  You mean that thing wasn't just a corpse?  Dayamn!

[Lyrin]

It's been about a year since I last checked on this. I wanted to know if P2/P3 are able to quick swap weapons. Last time I tried, they weren't able to.

[Queue]

Lyrin, yes, that was fixed at some point. There have also been various other multiplayer bug fixes since a year ago; though primarily fixes for vanilla bugs instead of mod-added features.

[Queue]

Version 2021-07-13:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/6w1ije

Changes:
- updated Kethinov's Balance\Harder_Final_Boss to version 1.4
- implemented Miscellaneous\Turtle_Tours
- made Technical\Safe_Save_State unable to pause when a new song is starting asynchronously
- made Technical\Safe_Save_State with Pause_Gameplay_Only unable to pause when a ring menu is open

Turtle_Tours is a fairly large new feature that relies on both Day_Night_Cycle and Enhanced_World_Map to function. It makes Turtle Shell Isle swim around the world over the course of a week and adds Highsteppers to facilitate travel to and from the island at the various towns that it visits (well, and a certain stove-turned-cannon). The center large hut is now an inn (without save point) to let you force time to pass, and unlike normal inns where you sleep for about 7 hours, this one always makes time advance to the next day.

There are 7 days in a week, and on each day, the turtle will be at a different location. Four locations allow disembarking. Currently, there's no way to tell which day of the week it is (other than by observing where the turtle currently is).

I don't think you can end up stranded on Tasnica's docks; at every other location you can pass time by changing screens or sleeping (though woe be to the low level player stranded on Gold Isle). I accounted for Desert and Ice Country progression in case you visit early, though visiting early is sort've the point. Ultimately, this should just be a fun feature to make the world feel a little more alive. If there are any unforeseen issues (namely, getting stuck somewhere), I'll fix them as they're reported.

[hmsong]

Thank you!

I tried it.  Very interesting.  The stove becoming the cannon was a nice touch.  I don't know about having the early access to such broken equipments of Gold Isle, but I suppose the price there is also high enough to prevent early access (if someone grinded enough to buy the equipments there, then he would be WAY overleveled, since there's no way to make money without grinding for level).  Still, makes me wonder...  So far, I see Ice Country, Kakkara, Tasnica, and Gold Isle.  I suppose that means the earliest access to the turtle is after clearing Matango.  Although the discolored jump pad is weird, but I suppose that can't be helped due to the limited 4 colors in a map.  Having said that, several questions on what would happen:

1. After getting Salamander but before attempting Kakkara, if you got onto the turtle and got off at Kakkara, does that mean that you can skip the sandship scenario?
2. Before getting the Fire Seed (or obtaining Salamander), if you got onto the turtle, got the Sea Hare's Tail, and returned, would you be able to revive the oasis early?  How would that affect the plot?  Would the people of the desert not even care about the Fire Seed anymore?
3. If you did Kakkara scene first, then got onto the turtle, then got to the Ice Country, would you be able to skip that one boss in the Ice Country? (that plant boss)
4. If you talk to that old man in the Gold Isle to talk to Mara about the tower key, and get the tower key, does that mean that you'd have early access to Light Tower? (and therefore early Lumina)... which means you'd have early access to early Luna (even if you don't enable that in the Turbo), which means you'd have early access to Tasnica (Tasnica guards move away if you beat the Moon Palace, I think).  It's easy to prevent early access to Moon Palace by making Karon appear after beating the Dark Palace and making the Tasnica guards open up after clearing all 3 palaces (that's what I did for my private patch).  For preventing the early Light Palace, I suppose making the Gold Isle old man appear only after clearing the Northtown Emperor Castle would be a good way.

Suggestions:
1. Could you make it so that the turtle makes a stop at the Pecard's Tower?  I know there's nothing there (other than a possible chest), but I figured that'll be cool.  Pecard's lonely.
2. Could you make it so that everytime you reset the game (load from a save), the time of the day is always in the fixed time of fixed day, and the turtle always starts at a specific location?  That way, players can experiment with the inn to know exactly when the turtle is gonna arrive in their position after the reset (ex: if I'm in Kakkara, and I sleep X number of nights in a row after the reset, the turtle will come to Kakkara) -- you know, add an element of predictability after experimentation.  At least, make that an optional feature?  I mean, you don't even have access to the world map until you get Flammie, so there's no way to know where the turtle is, meaning seeing when the turtle will come is too frustrating for players (go to inn, sleep, then try the jumping pad, and if it doesn't work, repeat the cycle).  I'm personally not a fan of frustrating things.  I don't mind the game being difficult or frustrating features that can be mitigated after a lot of testing (I feel like I'm rewarded for testing things out), but unpredictable frustrating features are... frustrating, esp for replays, because no amount of testing will help you much, which is very discouraging.

[Queue]

I'm not super worried about the Gold Isle items, but I do need to do a playtest to double-check how much money you have at that point. I expect you generally won't be able to afford everything on your first visit.

You guessed right on the weird colored Highsteppers. For Gold Isle and Kakkara especially, all 4 palette slots are used, so I just had to pick one that looked... well, the least bad. I went with colors that somewhat matched the town. The tropics had it easy since I used the stove. The Tasnica docks actually have 3 unused palette slots, so I could use any colors I want, but went with the guard colors since they match the color theme of Tasnica, and so were then similar to the Gold Isle / Kakkara Highsteppers.

I already accounted for possibly all of the questions that crossed your mind:

1) If you haven't been through the Sandship, the Highstepper launches you to the desert maze instead.

2) Getting the Sea Hare's tail (now) requires having retrieved the Fire Seed.

3) If you haven't been through the Tropics scenario, the Highstepper launches you to Todo instead.

4) Gaining access to the Light Tower requires:
- chase Mara into her house
- talk to Mara inside her house
- talk to man on Gold Isle
- talk to Mara inside her house

Numbers 1 and 3 probably wouldn't have mattered, but the Sandship is important story, and arguably rather fun, and Todo, Rudolph and Boreal Face don't take long, so it seems like quite a waste to skip them. So I made sure you can't.

Numbers 2 and 4 could conceivably be done a bit earlier than vanilla, but not if you use the turtle to go places too early. Early_Luna changes the rules on the Tasnica dock guards; they move once you have sealed 7 seeds (all except Dryad), so you'd also need Shade. Without Early_luna, yes, I think you could get into the Light Tower as soon as you reach Southtown (then go to Gold Isle, then back to Southtown, so it'd take a lot of effort), which would then let you through the Moon Palace early, and then into Tasnica early. I'm not sure any of this would be problematic other than it being a huge pain in the butt to leave Tasnica via Turtle if you do all of that before you have Flammie and you made time progress too much so that the turtle left (you'd need to keep changing screens after waiting around to cause time to keep advancing to bring the turtle back).

Really though, these would need to outright break the game (make it unbeatable) for me to restrict them further.

Suggestions:

1) That's a bit far east. The inn on the turtle sorta fudges time to force the global day (which the turtle's position is dictated by) to advance by one; you already sleep until daytime for Gold Isle and the Tropics, it'd be evening for the lighthouse. That's not ideal, but not really the problem. I have the turtle move 4 or 5 grid tiles on the world map per day, and traveling to the lighthouse from the Tropics is only 3, and then the lighthouse to Tasnica is 10, which is hard to make fit. I could dump Gold Isle to make a route that works, but then what's gained? A trip to a nearly worthless location instead of a whole town + dungeon?

2) Not doing what you suggest. I've been trying to come up with a good way to have the game tell you what day (and time?) it is. Maybe the innkeeper tells you when you wake up (but it'd make more sense to tell you the local timezone-adjusted time and day, but the turtle operates on global day). Maybe make a UI element in the status screen. Maybe make the nearly useless "Targeting" ring menu thingie into a pocketwatch (or sundial?) where when highlighted in the ring menu, it tells you the day (and time?). The passage of time mechanic isn't meant to bend to the player's will (i.e. reset upon loading a save, etc.), but to make the world change somewhat outside the player's control. Likewise, the turtle moving isn't meant to be convenient. Before gaining Flammie, the player may never happen upon a Highstepper (or stove) that sends them to the turtle. Which is fine, then the Highsteppers are just like the Trials of Mana ones that just let you look at the surrounding world pre-flight.

Your proposal would make Kakkara the only logical launch point (day 1 = vanilla turtle position, day 2 = Kakkara), and make it so predictable as to be abusable for an "optimal" use of the turtle, which is the antithesis of its purpose (which is to be a simulation of a giant living thing that does what it wants and doesn't care that some weirdos are living on its back). It's not like I disagree with you; frustrating elements in games generally suck. But the turtle isn't meant to be optimized. I could make the Highsteppers only present when the turtle is in range, but that risks a different issue: the player never knowing there can be a Highstepper there.

[hmsong]

Gottya.  I'm not too worried about Gold Isle shop either, since the items there are quite expensive.  But that's a different story if Early Luna is enabled, since you can grind very easily right outside the Moon Palace for lots of EXP and GP (best grind spot before Sunken Continent), which in turn will allow you to buy the gears early, which in turn will make you even more powerful.

I have a mixed feeling about getting Lumina early (which results in getting early Luna at least, as that would make magic even more broken, which is why I never use Early Luna -- it also allows easy early grind that I mentioned earlier).  Not just the new element, but the existing magic will be powered up too (up to Lv6).  Well, it's not a big issue for me, since I can just make that old man not appear until the Empire castle is cleared, but I figured other people may share the same thought.  Being too powerful in the beginning is kinda boring, but purposely not getting something you can is quite annoying (makes you feel empty).

Edit: Hmm.  Making that old man not appear before clearing the Empire castle is harder than I thought.  I don't see any enemies like that, so I can't copy it.  Uhh... help? (or you can just put it in the Turtle Tour for everyone else if you think that's a good idea?)

2) Getting the Sea Hare's tail (now) requires having retrieved the Fire Seed.

Wait, so you can get it before beating the Fire Palace?  I had hoped you can only get that after the Cannon guy opens up the Empire route (which is done after sealing the Fire Seed in the Fire Palace).

1) That's a bit far east. The inn on the turtle sorta fudges time to force the global day (which the turtle's position is dictated by) to advance by one; you already sleep until daytime for Gold Isle and the Tropics, it'd be evening for the lighthouse. That's not ideal, but not really the problem. I have the turtle move 4 or 5 grid tiles on the world map per day, and traveling to the lighthouse from the Tropics is only 3, and then the lighthouse to Tasnica is 10, which is hard to make fit. I could dump Gold Isle to make a route that works, but then what's gained? A trip to a nearly worthless location instead of a whole town + dungeon?

2) Not doing what you suggest. I've been trying to come up with a good way to have the game tell you what day (and time?) it is. Maybe the innkeeper tells you when you wake up (but it'd make more sense to tell you the local timezone-adjusted time and day, but the turtle operates on global day). Maybe make a UI element in the status screen. Maybe make the nearly useless "Targeting" ring menu thingie into a pocketwatch (or sundial?) where when highlighted in the ring menu, it tells you the day (and time?). The passage of time mechanic isn't meant to bend to the player's will (i.e. reset upon loading a save, etc.), but to make the world change somewhat outside the player's control. Likewise, the turtle moving isn't meant to be convenient. Before gaining Flammie, the player may never happen upon a Highstepper (or stove) that sends them to the turtle. Which is fine, then the Highsteppers are just like the Trials of Mana ones that just let you look at the surrounding world pre-flight.

Your proposal would make Kakkara the only logical launch point (day 1 = vanilla turtle position, day 2 = Kakkara), and make it so predictable as to be abusable for an "optimal" use of the turtle, which is the antithesis of its purpose (which is to be a simulation of a giant living thing that does what it wants and doesn't care that some weirdos are living on its back). It's not like I disagree with you; frustrating elements in games generally suck. But the turtle isn't meant to be optimized. I could make the Highsteppers only present when the turtle is in range, but that risks a different issue: the player never knowing there can be a Highstepper there.

Makes sense.

[Queue]

Version 2021-07-15:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/t6gn87

Changes:
- implemented No_Grell_Grinding as a sub-feature to Magic\Early_Luna (On by default); reduces exp and gold reward for killing Marmablues to discourage degenerate gameplay
- implemented Bug_Fixes\Earth_Seed_Flag; the seed on the altar in the Underground Palace was using the wrong event flag for visibility
- enhanced Tidy_Map_Pieces support of Turtle Shell Isle; made it one tile wider to hide map wrap around when at the far right edge
- for Turtle_Tours, changed Sea Hare's tail requirement to be that the Fire Seed was returned, not just obtained



hmsong, early Marmablue farming was a good point, jammed something in to help discourage that.

I 100% disagree regarding "but purposely not getting something you can is quite annoying"; I consider self-restraint highly rewarding, and also a perfectly acceptable way for a game to have replay value. I also really enjoy when games make you choose and don't let you see 100% of a game in a playthrough; I'll sometimes say I don't, and yet my favorite games of all time do this extensively, so it's clearly a case where just because someone, me in this case, says they don't like something, it's actually the opposite. Obviously these things are personal preference.

Aaanyway, that old man's data is at $C8ABA0; the first two bytes, 370E, are the event flag that controls his visibility (0x37) and the min and max flag values (0x0 and 0xE). The Imperial Castle stuff event flag looks to be 0x35, with 9 meaning you're totally done with it. So try RAW 35 =>9 =<F for the old man's data. I'm not interested in it being a standard limitation though. Again, unless any of this breaks the game (meaning you cannot complete the game or get to skip something important), I consider doing things slightly out of order a feature that reduces linearity, not a bug.

I actually just didn't think things through with the Sea Hare's tail. I forgot that obtained isn't the same as returned. If you look at @OFF _Event0BF, you'll see:
'\event   \if_flag== 93 =>1 =<2 \ret \nop
...commented out, which is a "Fire Seed returned" variation. Today's release enables it. I was concerned because I wasn't positive flag 0x93 was reliable because I saw it being used in the Underground Palace, but apparently that was a vanilla bug for which I tossed a bug fix into the new release.

[hmsong]

Awesome!  Thanks.  I'll try to see how that works on the old man.  And yeah, reducing XP/GP on Marmablue was a good idea (well, I don't use Early Luna, but for everyone else).  That was a farming point on an enemy that's very easy (not to mention it doesn't attack you with anything other than Magic Absorb... on Boy, who doesn't have any magic).

It's not like I expected you to agree with me on everything.  I like hearing different opinions (as long as it's civil), as that gives me ideas too (and sometimes, I'm convinced to change my opinion).  Anyways, I generally have 4 save points for SoM -- emperor castle, pre sunken continent, pure land, and mana fortress (well, I have way more save points for testing purposes, but I'm specifically talking about the save files for "complete" games).  As you can see, one of the save points is emperor castle, and as a rule-of-thumb (for me), I like to do every possible side quests for a specific save file.  Just a personal thing.  I'm sure there are others like me (probably, maybe).

[Mr X]

The Gold Isle prices are fine, unless you play vanilla SoM lol.  Some of them can also be farmed btw, with Luna makimg farming easier, not a big deal really.

I have more than enough money, especially using the patch limiting equipment one per character as I hate when characters just straight up facetank monsters without even the need using magic like buffs, debuffs, attack spells and such.

[lexluthermiester]

Changes:
- implemented No_Grell_Grinding as a sub-feature to Magic\Early_Luna (On by default); reduces exp and gold reward for killing Marmablues to discourage degenerate gameplay

This is one change I have to call janky. Not cool at all.