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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210502  (Read 505720 times)

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2000 on: April 03, 2021, 01:11:58 am »
@Josenev

I like Popoie.  Randi and Purim perhaps look a bit too mature and serious.

https://imgur.com/a/EyU4EHe

It's a bit difficult to distinguish Purim's torso from her lower half, where her pants are a bit baggy and come up very high, even compared to your initial design.

I know you're trying to go in a different direction, but I miss the lively storybook qualities of the original.  Just my 2¢.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 01:48:09 am by ManaRedux »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2001 on: April 04, 2021, 07:24:48 am »
As much as I'd like to see the new cool sprites, I doubt that'll happen.  Each character has so many different poses -- and all of those poses must be edited for that to really fit.  No way that's happening.  Probably.



@ManaRedux

I didn't get through as much as I had hoped, but here's what I found so far (some may be repeat of what I stated before).

1. In the beginning when Boy doesn't have the sword and says that he needs to cut the grass, he says, "something to cut through the brush".  Don't you mean "bush"?
2. One of the Potos townfolks says, "what'd you do this time?"  Based on what people typically say (and google search), it's "what d'you do this time?".
3. When talking to the Potos elder the first time (when Elliot and Timothy are being assholes), I think you got Elliot and Timothy name mixed up in one part (based on their movements and such).  Specifically, it's Timothy who's supposed to say, "ohhh, maybe you found the treasure?"  And Elliott is supposed to say, "hey, not bad".
4. When Luka tells you to search for Watts, she says, "I've heard there's a blacksmith".  As in singular.  But in the next sentence, she says, "Their expertise would be ideal...".  That's plural.  I think it would make better sense if she said, "His expertise".  Or perhaps you were referring to him as "they", since the gender isn't known? (similar to what you did for Popoi)

I'll get to the rest later.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2002 on: April 04, 2021, 09:43:21 am »
@ManaRedux

I didn't get through as much as I had hoped, but here's what I found so far (some may be repeat of what I stated before).

1. In the beginning when Boy doesn't have the sword and says that he needs to cut the grass, he says, "something to cut through the brush".  Don't you mean "bush"?
2. One of the Potos townfolks says, "what'd you do this time?"  Based on what people typically say (and google search), it's "what d'you do this time?".
3. When talking to the Potos elder the first time (when Elliot and Timothy are being assholes), I think you got Elliot and Timothy name mixed up in one part (based on their movements and such).  Specifically, it's Timothy who's supposed to say, "ohhh, maybe you found the treasure?"  And Elliott is supposed to say, "hey, not bad".
4. When Luka tells you to search for Watts, she says, "I've heard there's a blacksmith".  As in singular.  But in the next sentence, she says, "Their expertise would be ideal...".  That's plural.  I think it would make better sense if she said, "His expertise".  Or perhaps you were referring to him as "they", since the gender isn't known? (similar to what you did for Popoi)

I'll get to the rest later.

Thank you for taking a look.

1)https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brush
2)Your suggestion reads like, "What do you do this time?" 
3)Reborn's correct.  I checked.  It's that way in vanilla too. 
4)A more literal translation:

"I've heard that there is a dwarven smith there.  It would be helpful if the dwarves could reforge your sword..."

You'll see that in the first sentence, Luka's referring to Watts, and in the second, she's referring to the dwarves in general.  The way it's written in Reborn, you could interpret the second sentence as a gender neutral pronoun referring to Watts (perhaps she doesn't know), but it actually refers to the dwarves in general.  I'll mess with it a bit so it's more clear.  It's another artifact of keeping things close to the Japanese script.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2003 on: April 04, 2021, 07:07:13 pm »
Ahh.  I see.

Quote
3)Reborn's correct.  I checked.  It's that way in vanilla too. 

I understand why you would want to keep what was in the original game, but don't you think that you ought to correct the obvious mistakes of the original?  Some of them are definitely mistakes of the original, like Timothy/Elliot thing and the ending (Boy/Girl mixed up the script).

Btw, what does Gnome say in his two scenes? (before Fire Gigas, and after Fire Gigas)  I can't even make out what he's saying, because his speech is so... not understandable.  I can understand Shade just fine (he's just missing some vowels), but with Gnome, I get lost a lot.


@Queue

Okay, when you first get out of Potos and use the cannon to get to the water palace and talk to Dyluck, but you DON'T go do the Water Palace scene (hence not receive spear and etc), and then talk to the cannon travel guy again, you can get to Gaia's Navel... which results in sequence breaking and all the... weird stuff can happen (including recruiting Popoi, Goblin Village scene being played AFTER recruiting both Girl and Sprite, Pandora's north exit being blocked, Jema is present in both Water Palace and Pandora castle at the same time, etc).  Could you perhaps make it so that cannon travel guy will only get you to Water Palace (event 0FB) if you don't do that Luka scene first?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 11:39:42 pm by hmsong »

Piotyr

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2004 on: April 05, 2021, 02:05:25 am »
I have a question, when updating the mod what files do I have to keep to avoid having to recheck every option I want? Or do I have to just start over and recheck everything I want/don't want?

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2005 on: April 05, 2021, 05:25:29 am »
There's an "good for everyone" set of choices to apply?
The defaults, if you don't turn anything on or off from how it is without a config file, is what I recommend. Being able to turn stuff on and off beyond that is when you're ready to get your feet wet and try fine-tuning things to your tastes.

When updating the mod what files do I have to keep to avoid having to recheck every option I want?
When you apply the patch, a config file is created in the same folder as the ZPS, with the same file name, but ending in .ini. So, if patching with version 210329, you should get "SoM Turbo.210329.ini"

You can either rename an old config file to match the new ZPS file name, or you can do something like remove the version number from both file names (e.g. just "SoM Turbo.zps" and "SoM Turbo.ini"); as long as they match, the patcher will load that config file when the ZPS file is loaded.

Erm, and the config file specifies which checkboxes are on and off, Advanced Options values, etc. if that wasn't obvious.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2006 on: April 05, 2021, 05:43:57 pm »
Ahh.  I see.

I understand why you would want to keep what was in the original game, but don't you think that you ought to correct the obvious mistakes of the original?  Some of them are definitely mistakes of the original, like Timothy/Elliot thing and the ending (Boy/Girl mixed up the script).

I went back and watched the original scene.  Is your evidence that Timothy says the "Did you find the treasure" line that he turns and faces Elliott?  And then Elliott faces Timothy afterwards?  We don't know if this implies speaking or listening.  The onscreen expressions of the characters are generally very limited.  I imagine there'd be many cases like this throughout the game.

Btw, what does Gnome say in his two scenes? (before Fire Gigas, and after Fire Gigas)  I can't even make out what he's saying, because his speech is so... not understandable.  I can understand Shade just fine (he's just missing some vowels), but with Gnome, I get lost a lot.

The Gnome speaks in a Scottish accent in our script.  Originally, he spoke in a thick rural accent that's kind of a coal miner trope (which is not easy to read either).  Ours aligns with Dawn of Mana's interpretation.

Unfortunately, this is a case that seems to be tricky for folks who have not been exposed to this accent.  We researched angry Scottish comic book characters to get the feel down, and it was popular with a lot of folks.  There's something satisfying about the sprite going up against some angry Scottish guy.  Between our first version and the latest revision, we changed a lot of words and their spelling to make it easier to read.

Queue and I actually discussed this a month or two ago and decided it's worth leaving.  All scripts have quirky decisions, like Charlotte's dialogue in Trials of Mana, and I guess this is one of ours. 

For reference, the words we used are here, and their meaning can likely be perceived in context.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nyaff
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=roaster
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fankle
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bugger
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/guidwife
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 05:57:36 pm by ManaRedux »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2007 on: April 05, 2021, 07:21:38 pm »
I went back and watched the original scene.  Is your evidence that Timothy says the "Did you find the treasure" line that he turns and faces Elliott?  And then Elliott faces Timothy afterwards?  We don't know if this implies speaking or listening.  The onscreen expressions of the characters are generally very limited.  I imagine there'd be many cases like this throughout the game.

The Gnome speaks in a Scottish accent in our script.  Originally, he spoke in a thick rural accent that's kind of a coal miner trope (which is not easy to read either).  Ours aligns with Dawn of Mana's interpretation.

Unfortunately, this is a case that seems to be tricky for folks who have not been exposed to this accent.  We researched angry Scottish comic book characters to get the feel down, and it was popular with a lot of folks.  There's something satisfying about the sprite going up against some angry Scottish guy.  Between our first version and the latest revision, we changed a lot of words and their spelling to make it easier to read.

Queue and I actually discussed this a month or two ago and decided it's worth leaving.  All scripts have quirky decisions, like Charlotte's dialogue in Trials of Mana, and I guess this is one of ours. 

For reference, the words we used are here, and their meaning can likely be perceived in context.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nyaff
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=roaster
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fankle
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bugger
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/guidwife

Yeah, that was my evidence.  Usually, a character moves (or turns), then speaks in retro games like SoM, due to limited facial expressions.

Thanks for the Scottish language.  I don't have any problem with Gnome speaking in such way (as it's a dialect), but I just wanted to know what he was saying if it was translated to more common English.  Curiosity.

What does, "Just claise yer een" mean?  "Just clap your mean"?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 11:59:02 pm by hmsong »

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2008 on: April 06, 2021, 12:45:56 am »
Yeah, that was my evidence.  Usually, a character moves (or turns), then speaks in retro games like SoM, due to limited facial expressions.

Thanks for the Scottish language.  I don't have any problem with Gnome speaking in such way (as it's a dialect), but I just wanted to know what he was saying if it was translated to more common English.  Curiosity.

What does, "Just claise yer een" mean?  "Just clap your mean"?

"Just close your eyes"

Definition #3 here: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=een

"Scottish slang.  In Scotland, particularly Dumfries & Galloway, your "e" is your eye. "Een" are your eyes."

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2009 on: April 06, 2021, 04:09:36 am »
In the Northtown Ruins, when you meet Dyluck, he calls Girl's friend, "Phanna" instead of "Pamela".

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2010 on: April 06, 2021, 05:33:56 am »
In the Northtown Ruins, when you meet Dyluck, he calls Girl's friend, "Phanna" instead of "Pamela".

Nice work.  That was accidentally slipped in with the last revision.  I fixed.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2011 on: April 07, 2021, 03:38:58 am »
I was going through the event scripts (just the text parts, and still ways to go), and I found this:

event1FE (I'm not sure how this is activated -- I tried the "recruit Popoi, then recruit Primm in the forest, but immediate go to Gaia's Navel, but it didn't active this event)

"Hey hey, this is Gaia's Navel. This place has nothing do with Dyluck."  Isn't it supposed to be "nothing to do with Dyluck."?

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2012 on: April 07, 2021, 08:16:17 am »
I was going through the event scripts (just the text parts, and still ways to go), and I found this:

event1FE (I'm not sure how this is activated -- I tried the "recruit Popoi, then recruit Primm in the forest, but immediate go to Gaia's Navel, but it didn't active this event)

"Hey hey, this is Gaia's Navel. This place has nothing do with Dyluck."  Isn't it supposed to be "nothing to do with Dyluck."?

Fixed  >:(

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2013 on: April 08, 2021, 12:54:13 am »
@ManaRedux @Queue

Wow, there's a lot of scripts in the events that I didn't even know existed.  I should have done this from the beginning to check things.  Heh.  Some of them seem to be not used (such as event 208).

Anyhow, have you thought about using different name mechanic for when you use the enemy's name?  For example, in event 24B, you use [E]|Pebbler to refer a specific enemy within the script.  My guess is that this was done in order to make it compatible with Relocalized, at some point in the future (it's called Molebear in Reloc).  But for events like 1D4 (Tropicallo) and 26E (Mushboom), you literally spell out their names.  I personally prefer the usage of [E], since I do like most names of Relocalized.  I'm sure there are others.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2014 on: April 08, 2021, 10:45:43 pm »
The enemy name commands are all on my end of stuff, I just hadn't finished getting them set up. Beyond enemy names, if I want non-enemy NPC names, it will require adding a new event command since non-enemy NPCs don't have indexed names the way monsters do.

There really aren't that many unused text events. There's the energizing drink, torn diary page, a couple orphaned Luka mana storytime branches (like the one where the boy talks about being yelled at for pulling out the sword), and one or two Cannon Travel lines. That might be all.

Oh, and to answer an earlier question, Kilroy uses Lunar Boost (I think is the spell), if he's not attacking, with a 1 in 256 chance per 5 frames (I think is the frequency). I think it's the same for Kettle Kin.

I was trying to get a release ready before I wound up busy this weekend, but couldn't get all the bugs worked out of a new Tonpole buff in time so it'll probably have to wait until next week. =\ Annoying because there are other changes being held up.

Have I ever mentioned how I hate working on SoM boss code? It's fragile and buggy and takes a ton of work to make even small changes.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2015 on: April 09, 2021, 01:29:18 am »
Quote
Have I ever mentioned how I hate working on SoM boss code? It's fragile and buggy and takes a ton of work to make even small changes

I think I remember this mentioned a lot of times haha. And from what I have read from the creator of the SD3 mod, the game is also very fragile for extensive modding. Probably even worse than SoM as even the smallest changes could fuck the rom up, it's that fragile.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 04:45:30 am by Mr X »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2016 on: April 11, 2021, 07:13:07 am »
The enemy name commands are all on my end of stuff, I just hadn't finished getting them set up. Beyond enemy names, if I want non-enemy NPC names, it will require adding a new event command since non-enemy NPCs don't have indexed names the way monsters do.

Ahh.  I see.  I have a mixed feeling of the boss name "Alfie" and "Bettie" for Reborn.  I'm guessing those names were very... unassuming due to the Scorpion Lady's bad naming sense (and because she didn't think of one before meeting your characters), and I see the humor in that (therefore I want them to keep that name).  Then again, Kettle Kin is a pretty terrible name too, so the humor may still work.

Have I ever mentioned how I hate working on SoM boss code? It's fragile and buggy and takes a ton of work to make even small changes.

I'm sure it's tough.  I mean, the pros gave up.  I can only imagine how tough it would be for you.  Thanks for your hard work.


On a side note: After clearing the Tree Palace and the Pure Land opens up, Mara exists in her home AND in the Tree Palace.  Two places at once.  I just find that a little odd.  Can you make it so that Mara disappears when you beat Tree Palace?  The only people who can exist in multiple places is Watts and Neko, but they're specifically for player's convenience (it'll suck for players if they don't exist in multiple places).  Mara doesn't have that excuse.



@ManaRedux

In event 2A3, the general apologies to the player characters, but he says, "You'll forgive me."  That sounds rather demanding and rude, and I'm sure that wasn't what was meant to be.  Perhaps, "You'll have to forgive me" or "Please forgive me"?

In events 3A5 and 3A6, the "634" is being said by your party, right?  But it makes it seem like the guard is the one saying it.  3A5 definitely makes it seem like the guard is talking to himself.  Crazy guy.

According to the beginning text crawl, it was the hero who struck down the Mana Fortress, and the Mana Beast disappeared.  But according to event 3EF, it was the Mana Beast that took down the Fortress (I'm guessing the recording is more accurate of what really happened, since legends tend to be inaccurate).  So what exactly did the hero actually do?

Fuuu... Half way through the script (done up to 400).  Gonna do a little more tonight, but yeah.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 08:18:25 am by hmsong »

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2017 on: April 11, 2021, 10:49:58 am »
Quote
@ManaRedux

In event 2A3, the general apologies to the player characters, but he says, "You'll forgive me."  That sounds rather demanding and rude, and I'm sure that wasn't what was meant to be.  Perhaps, "You'll have to forgive me" or "Please forgive me"?

In events 3A5 and 3A6, the "634" is being said by your party, right?  But it makes it seem like the guard is the one saying it.  3A5 definitely makes it seem like the guard is talking to himself.  Crazy guy.

According to the beginning text crawl, it was the hero who struck down the Mana Fortress, and the Mana Beast disappeared.  But according to event 3EF, it was the Mana Beast that took down the Fortress (I'm guessing the recording is more accurate of what really happened, since legends tend to be inaccurate).  So what exactly did the hero actually do?

Fuuu... Half way through the script (done up to 400).  Gonna do a little more tonight, but yeah.

Thanks again for taking a look at all of this.

"You'll forgive me" makes sense in the context of Merillat's character and what he's saying here.

I assume your comment about 634 is because the 634! 634! line doesn't have a speaker attached.  Queue, do you think we need LEADER here?

You have a great point on the Mana Beast.  I checked the raw Japanese translation for both events:

Code: [Select]
At that moment, the Fortress was struck down by a hero bearing the Holy Sword, and with it the Godbeast vanished from the sight of mankind.
Code: [Select]
Television viewers! Look at this--that's the Mana Fortress! Ah! At last, the airborne fortress Gigant has been obliterated by the Godbeast! It's crashing down into the sea!
The point of the hero attacking the Mana Fortress was to demonstrate that humans could use Mana for good, as opposed to the initial hunger for power that created the Fortress.  Presumably, once they were satisfied with this demonstration and the Fortress was neutralized, they withdrew the Mana Beast. 

The bigger plot hole here is...if it was struck down or obliterated to begin with, how is it intact and functional at the time of Secret of Mana?

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2018 on: April 11, 2021, 07:56:38 pm »
The point of the hero attacking the Mana Fortress was to demonstrate that humans could use Mana for good, as opposed to the initial hunger for power that created the Fortress.  Presumably, once they were satisfied with this demonstration and the Fortress was neutralized, they withdrew the Mana Beast.

Yeah, and the reporters may have just assumed that it was the Mana Beast that took down the fortress, since they can't actually see what happened (Mana Beast may have just attacked the already broken fortress, which was done by the hero -- meaning that the fortress was taken down by the hero).

The bigger plot hole here is...if it was struck down or obliterated to begin with, how is it intact and functional at the time of Secret of Mana?

Oh, you're right.  I didnt' think about that.  It's not like Thanatos (and his goons) had any engineering skills to repair the fortress.  Maybe the fortress had auto-repair function if it absorbed enough Mana, hence why the hero sealed it underneath the continent?

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #2019 on: April 11, 2021, 08:11:29 pm »
Quote
Ahh.  I see.  I have a mixed feeling of the boss name "Alfie" and "Bettie" for Reborn.  I'm guessing those names were very... unassuming due to the Scorpion Lady's bad naming sense (and because she didn't think of one before meeting your characters), and I see the humor in that (therefore I want them to keep that name).  Then again, Kettle Kin is a pretty terrible name too, so the humor may still work.

Kilroy's name in Japanese is Ichiro and they refer to him as "Ichiro-kun."  Simlarly, Kettle Kin is Jiro and "Jiro-kun."

Code: [Select]
“Ichiro” is traditionally a name for the firstborn son [Jiro is a name for the second born], and “kun” is used to address people of junior status...A contemporary pop culture example are the two eldest brothers in the Buster Bros!!! hip hop anime, Ichiro and Jiro Yamada.  Ultimately, these are very plain names like “Tom” or “John” and play into the ridiculousness of the Scorpion Brigade.  We considered “Primus” and “Secondus” before settling on “Alfie” and “Bettie” (Alpha/Beta).

So Alfie/Bettie are names that sound clever to them, but are ultimately underwhelming.