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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210415  (Read 487510 times)

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1840 on: February 08, 2021, 10:44:21 pm »
From “Malikto,” a spell in Wizardry (a major influence on early Square developers)

Her Japanese name is Marikuto.

I see.  Wow, the sheer amount of reference and research you did is amazing.

I think this wins the award for #1 item of feedback on Reborn.  Believe it or not, it is undoubtedly Randi reacting to the possessed townsfolk in the Japanese script.  This may have been a mistake on the developers' part, as every other instance of the same dialogue seems to emanate from a possessed person.  We left it in because it still makes sense.  One thing we could do is make it, "Randi:......!"  The exclamation point would indicate a reaction, but may be a bit more than what was intended there.

Woot!

Anyways, I'm betting it's a dev mistake.  I'm not sure what the best solution is, but it's good to know that it was on purpose, and why it was on purpose.  However you decided to fix (if you decide to fix), I'll take it.

Tl;dr it's a reference to the Latin phrase, Nemo me impune lacessit, which nicely reflects the original sentiment, especially as it's adopted as a military/regal motto.

Never heard of that before, but I still think the sentence structure should be corrected.  I'll leave that to you.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1841 on: February 08, 2021, 10:56:21 pm »
I see.  Wow, the sheer amount of reference and research you did is amazing.

That comes from Taosenai, who's the sort that happens to know these things.

Quote

Never heard of that before, but I still think the sentence structure should be corrected.  I'll leave that to you.

Tbh, I don't see anything wrong with it; it's succinct and to the point.  No knowledge of the phrase's inspiration is needed to understand the sentence.  Your two suggestions come off a bit awkward. 

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1842 on: February 09, 2021, 02:34:32 am »
Some more:

1) One of the ladies in the Turtle island says, "I don't forget the old days when everything was so lavish".  Don't you mean, "I won't forget"?
2) In the Lofty Mountain village, the old man outside the temple says, "Hey! Don't get be getting in the way of prayer!"  I think it should be, "Hey! Don't get in the way of the prayers!"  Or "Hey! Stop getting in the way of the prayers!" (notice I added "the" and plural of prayer).

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1843 on: February 09, 2021, 06:39:04 am »
Some more:

1) One of the ladies in the Turtle island says, "I don't forget the old days when everything was so lavish".  Don't you mean, "I won't forget"?

No, that's right.  Sometimes you hear, "I don't forget where I came from"...same idea.

Quote
2) In the Lofty Mountain village, the old man outside the temple says, "Hey! Don't get be getting in the way of prayer!"  I think it should be, "Hey! Don't get in the way of the prayers!"  Or "Hey! Stop getting in the way of the prayers!" (notice I added "the" and plural of prayer).

Queue found this recently and fixed it for the next release.  I think it's, "Hey! Don't get in the way of prayer."  "The prayers" isn't correct.  Similar to the famous spiritual, Standing in the Need of Prayer...
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 10:06:02 am by ManaRedux »

Memorex

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1844 on: February 09, 2021, 03:46:21 pm »
If you enter the altar room in Underground Palace (where you meet Gnome) with the sprite in KO condition, the
message that appears telling you that you shouldn't leave the sprite in that condition flashes by rather quickly.
Its an automated message that don't require a button to be pushed to display the second "page". Same in vanilla..?

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210209
« Reply #1845 on: February 09, 2021, 05:50:28 pm »
Version 2021-02-09:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.210209.zip

Changes:
- Reborn updated to in-progress pre-release 1.10
- Added another HUD discoloring fix to Late_HDMA_Fix (if you opened and closed the ring menu too fast and timing was just right the HUD became black and blue)
- Fixed crash bug in Bug_Fixes\No_Blats_To_Sell when having no items to sell

Technical Changes:
- Groundwork to improve Async_Music_Crossfade
- New symbols for \print_leader (and other) event commands
- Syntax tweak for foldable text sections ("{" -> "{ '")



Memorex, good catch, that's a mistake in Reborn.

In vanilla, it says:
This is the stage room...
Followed by:
We can't leave SPRITE's
like this.

Which all fits in one text box.

Reborn changes that first line to:
BOY:This_should_be_the
altar_room...

Followed by:
But,_leaving_SPRITE_like
this_would_not_be_good...

Which at 4 lines doesn't fit.

I just need to add a pause & clear before the second sentence. (Edit: Added in 210209.)



ROM king and zoe.f, the file host I use was just down for a bit. Seems to be functioning again, and there's a new version of Turbo.



Edit: Added new version to this post.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 07:24:23 pm by Queue »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210209
« Reply #1846 on: February 09, 2021, 07:50:05 pm »
@ManaRedux, Queue

Some more:

1) The fake chancellor says, "Now, let's all use this opportunity to end the chancellor...".  Then Randi says, "Or not.  Just try to make us."  Was the Darkstalker/fake chancellor trying to mind control the party to make them kill the real chancellor?  I don't understand what that means.
2) After defeating Darkstalker, in the conversation with the chancellor, one of the lines auto-proceeds before I even get the chance to read it.
3) After defeating Darkstalker, one of the guards (in another room) says, "His Majesty trusts Jema before all others."  Wasn't he a chancellor in the new translation?  Chancellors aren't called "His Majesty", right?

Also,  should I replay the Reborn so that I don't point out the previous mistakes?  Or should I continue this playthrough using the previous version?  Or would it cause problem if I use my current save file for the new version?


@Queue

I previously pointed out the graphic error in the Mech Rider 2 fight (well, after the fight where you summon Flammie).  ManaRedux said to talk to you.  I'm not sure if you saw that, so I'm repeating it here.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210209
« Reply #1847 on: February 09, 2021, 08:03:21 pm »

1) The fake chancellor says, "Now, let's all use this opportunity to end the chancellor...".  Then Randi says, "Or not.  Just try to make us."  Was the Darkstalker/fake chancellor trying to mind control the party to make them kill the real chancellor?  I don't understand what that means.

Yes.  Sheex impersonated the Chancellor so he could surrender Tasnica to the Empire.  To get revenge on Jema exposing him, he sends everyone but Randi and friends back to the entrance of the castle, and threatens them if they don't execute the Chancellor.  You know how it goes.

Quote
3) After defeating Darkstalker, one of the guards (in another room) says, "His Majesty trusts Jema before all others."  Wasn't he a chancellor in the new translation?  Chancellors aren't called "His Majesty", right?

The explanation for Tasnica's ruler:

Code: [Select]
Deciding how to designate Tasnica’s ruler was difficult.  J unambiguously has 王, meaning king.  However, the remake went with “chancellor.”  This makes more sense as Republics by definition don’t have kings, despite a phrase in the script that translates as “Republic’s King.”  A strong argument against “chancellor” is that the writer may not clearly understand how a Republic works, but it’s not our job to make the characters smarter than what was written.  Furthermore, from a practical standpoint, it’s tough to call someone wearing a crown and robes a chancellor.  Nevertheless, we ultimately chose to align with the remake, if nothing else for the symmetry of the Empire having an emperor, Pandora, having a king, and Tasnica having a chancellor.
So referring to this fellow as, "His Majesty" is part of this translation circus.  I think, "His Excellency" may be better here.  Randi refers to him as, "Your Grace" (appropriate for a Chancellor), but "His Grace" has a religious tone to it. 

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210209
« Reply #1848 on: February 09, 2021, 08:25:14 pm »
Yes.  Sheex impersonated the Chancellor so he could surrender Tasnica to the Empire.  To get revenge on Jema exposing him, he sends everyone but Randi and friends back to the entrance of the castle, and threatens them if they don't execute the Chancellor.  You know how it goes.

Okay, but how was Sheex threatening the party to kill the chancellor?  I mean, it seemed like Sheex was saying, "I want you to kill the Hostage A, or I'll kill the Hostage A".  It doesn't seem to make sense.

And as for His Majesty, I'm not particularly against the Tasnica ruler to be called chancellor.  But I just feel weird that some people called him chancellor, and other call him His Majesty (chancellor definitely won't be called His Majesty... unless chancellors are called that way).  I just want consistency, regardless of what he's called.



@Queue

For Stardust Herb Shop/Drop, could you please edit this?

Code: [Select]
@OFF ShopData_Tasnica[]
RAW BA BB BC BD BE C5 BF C4 89 8A A0 B1 FF

I know I put Guardian Ring in the previous update, but I wanted Guardian Ring to be a monster-drop-only item.

Also, if possible, could you add in the descriptions for [Energized_Weapons]?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 09:10:33 pm by hmsong »

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210209
« Reply #1849 on: February 09, 2021, 08:30:51 pm »
Okay, but how was Sheex threatening the party to kill the chancellor?  I mean, it seemed like Sheex was saying, "I want you to kill the Hostage A, or I'll kill the Hostage A".  It doesn't seem to make sense.

It could also just be a taunt.  If he really wanted to kill the Chancellor, he probably would've sent everyone out of the room, but SoM villains are not particularly efficient.  The line works fine.

Quote
And as for His Majesty, I'm not particularly against the Tasnica ruler to be called chancellor.  But I just feel weird that some people called him chancellor, and other call him His Majesty (chancellor definitely won't be called His Majesty... unless chancellors are called that way).  I just want consistency, regardless of what he's called.

That's why I changed it to His Excellency---to avoid any confusion.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210209
« Reply #1850 on: February 09, 2021, 08:32:05 pm »
That's why I changed it to His Excellency---to avoid any confusion.

Ahh, I see.  I misread that.  Thank you.

Some more:
1) During the final scene of the Mana Holy Land, the conversation was suppose to last to the exact moment of the music's end (before Thanatos blows up the tree), but it ends before the music is completed -- that really decreases the epicness of the scene.  Perhaps you can add an additional text box or something to extend the conversation, so that the music actually finishes?
2) During the Mana Tree conversation, the tree says, "In a moment, godbeasts from throughout the world will gather...".  Don't you mean, "In a moment, godbeasts throughout the world will gather..."? (delete "from")
3) During the Mana Tree conversation, the tree says, "Among living things, it's unique in that way."  Perhaps, "Among all living things,"?
4) Same conversation... "But when so much Mana is lost, so fast, the Mana Beast..." -- I don't think there's supposed to be a comma between "lost" and "so".


@Queue

It seems that it's not just Great Viper, but also Dragon Worm that is missing the "explosion, victory pose, music, etc" at the end.  That may need fixing.

Also, the same for Dark Lich.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 07:08:49 am by hmsong »

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210209
« Reply #1851 on: February 11, 2021, 12:49:58 pm »
Ahh, I see.  I misread that.  Thank you.

Some more:
1) During the final scene of the Mana Holy Land, the conversation was suppose to last to the exact moment of the music's end (before Thanatos blows up the tree), but it ends before the music is completed -- that really decreases the epicness of the scene.  Perhaps you can add an additional text box or something to extend the conversation, so that the music actually finishes?

This is a timing issue with the Proportional Font.  In Reborn proper (vanilla font), we nailed it without even trying.  This is one of those timing issues that we still have to work out, like the Prologue.

Quote
2) During the Mana Tree conversation, the tree says, "In a moment, godbeasts from throughout the world will gather...".  Don't you mean, "In a moment, godbeasts throughout the world will gather..."? (delete "from")

I had to seriously think about this one;  Taosenai wrote that line.  I would say that the from strengthens the implication that they're coming from across the world to one place.  Without the from, it sounds like they're gathering everywhere.  I know that claim is arguable, but I think it's okay how it is.

Think of these sentences:

"We're receiving data from throughout the world."
"We're receiving data throughout the world." 

Quote
3) During the Mana Tree conversation, the tree says, "Among living things, it's unique in that way."  Perhaps, "Among all living things,"?
 
Not necessary.

Quote
4) Same conversation... "But when so much Mana is lost, so fast, the Mana Beast..." -- I don't think there's supposed to be a comma between "lost" and "so".

This is similar to your comment on "well" in Watt's speech earlier.  It's a bit of a run-on without a comma. 

AdamDravian

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210209
« Reply #1852 on: February 11, 2021, 11:53:16 pm »
I had to seriously think about this one;  Taosenai wrote that line.  I would say that the from strengthens the implication that they're coming from across the world to one place.  Without the from, it sounds like they're gathering everywhere.  I know that claim is arguable, but I think it's okay how it is.

Yeah, it's totally fine.
Writer of the '80s-themed webcomic Satan Ninja 198X

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210209
« Reply #1853 on: February 12, 2021, 08:29:17 am »
At the ending, why is Randi thinking about Dyluck, whereas Primm says nothing about Dyluck?  That's just too weird.  I know Randi knew Dyluck, but nowhere near the level of Primm.

Well, I finally finished playing Reborn and noted things as much as I could (at least the first play).  I very much enjoyed this.  Thank you, ManaRedux and Queue.  I will of course continue to play this over and over again to see if I can find some more things.

I wish Moon Palace had some sort of improvement -- with the dungeon boss being Gorgon Bull (with Gorgon Bull removed from the Light Palace).  I say Gorgon Bull, instead of Blue Spike, since Gorgon Bull is easier to beat (due to it being slow and having element weakness) if people used Early Luna.

Oh well.

Thirteen 1355

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1854 on: February 12, 2021, 09:37:26 am »
Some more:

1) One of the ladies in the Turtle island says, "I don't forget the old days when everything was so lavish".  Don't you mean, "I won't forget"?
2) In the Lofty Mountain village, the old man outside the temple says, "Hey! Don't get be getting in the way of prayer!"  I think it should be, "Hey! Don't get in the way of the prayers!"  Or "Hey! Stop getting in the way of the prayers!" (notice I added "the" and plural of prayer).

"Don't go getting" is what I'd choose. It's lively and closest to "don't get be getting." Possibly what they intended.
Helicoptering about till I find some ROM hacking treasure.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210209
« Reply #1855 on: February 12, 2021, 10:18:40 am »
At the ending, why is Randi thinking about Dyluck, whereas Primm says nothing about Dyluck?  That's just too weird.  I know Randi knew Dyluck, but nowhere near the level of Primm.

Well, I finally finished playing Reborn and noted things as much as I could (at least the first play).  I very much enjoyed this.  Thank you, ManaRedux and Queue.  I will of course continue to play this over and over again to see if I can find some more things.

I wish Moon Palace had some sort of improvement -- with the dungeon boss being Gorgon Bull (with Gorgon Bull removed from the Light Palace).  I say Gorgon Bull, instead of Blue Spike, since Gorgon Bull is easier to beat (due to it being slow and having element weakness) if people used Early Luna.

Oh well.

Thank you for pointing out those errors! 

I just looked at the script.  In Japanese, it's ambiguous who's saying all of those lines at the end, however, it seems they've implied a change in speaker.  Woolsey assigned it to Purim, but all of his assignments at the end don't follow the logic of the Japanese script.  He may have known something we didn't, but I kind of like it with Randi, tbh.  It's supportive of her.

The big thing about the Moon Palace is that it's a planetarium.  This comes from Karon's line if you're not successful in deactivating the orb.  That never gelled in my mind until I was working on this.  I always thought that the room with the orb was made up of the literal "nothing" in the Sea of Wonders.  It's actually a projection.  May have been a last minute invention as they didn't have time to finish any original plans.

We're launching manaredux.com shortly, and based on our research, you'd be amazed how unfinished the game was well into 1993.  Ted Woolsey was translating the Japanese script as it was still being written. 

Quote
"Don't go getting" is what I'd choose. It's lively and closest to "don't get be getting." Possibly what they intended.

"Don't get be getting" was a mistake. :banghead:

Thirteen 1355

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210209
« Reply #1856 on: February 12, 2021, 10:33:35 am »
I know. That's why I suggest an alternative  :P
Helicoptering about till I find some ROM hacking treasure.

Memorex

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210209
« Reply #1857 on: February 13, 2021, 05:12:04 am »
In Northtown, you are told that "This is Northtown, the site of the court of His Majesty, the Emperor.", but in other cases the comma between "His Majesty"
and "the Emperor" is not present.

February 13, 2021, 07:26:51 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Semi-related to this hack, but whatever: I read that early access to the Pandora ruins was disabled by having your characters dragged out if you select-glitched pass the guards. So I was at the Emperors castle and by pure accident I unleashed Randis's lvl.3 charge attack with the Mana-sword in front of the guard at the left-most door, one of those who says "The emperor is awaiting you". This resulted in me ending up behind the guard. I then entered the dungeon and asked the guard to let me out of the cell from the outside of the bars. This scripted event glitched so that the characters where positioned in mid air above the chasm. I then fell down, beat the boss and from there everything went as supposed and I met with the Emperor and the others and finally confronted the boss on the roof. 

I tried it again but this time I entered by the main entrance and used the same method to bypass the guards who says to use the stairs on the right.
This way I could make it straight to the Emperor and the bossfight on the roof while leaving Krissie and the others to rot in jail and totally skipping the Mantis-boss. Just wanted to share that  :beer:

Also, after freeing Salamando, when the cut-scene with the Scorpion-gang finished, the stove changed position. No idea if this ever happens in vanilla?!

« Last Edit: February 13, 2021, 07:09:41 pm by Memorex »

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210209
« Reply #1858 on: February 13, 2021, 11:50:56 am »
In Northtown, you are told that "This is Northtown, the site of the court of His Majesty, the Emperor.", but in other cases the comma between "His Majesty" and "the Emperor" is not present.

Aack, thank you for pointing that out; I know why that happened, actually.  I changed it to have a comma in all cases to be consistent.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210212
« Reply #1859 on: February 13, 2021, 02:15:49 pm »
Version 2021-02-12:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.210212.zip
Alternate Link:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/l0juww

Changes:
- Updated pre-release Reborn v1.10 (though don't have last night's corrections)
- Updated hmsong's Items\Stardust_Herb\Drop_And_Shop_Changes
- Rewrote Audio\Async_Music_Crossfade, explanation below

Technical Changes:
- Added bank 0x03 / $C3 unused space to Technical\Overwrite_Unused_Data



So the rewrite to Async_Music_Crossfade gets one of my SoM bucket list goals out of the way. This was the third full rewrite, and really like sixth revision, to get it working reasonably.

In vanilla, when the command is issued to start playing a song, it completely locks up the game while it completes. If it wants the previous song to fade out before starting / fading in the new song, the fade out process is also part of the wait. Before this version of Async_Music_Crossfade, I had made the previous song fade-out asynchronous, but starting the new song still had a (usually) long pause.

So how does it work now?

When a new song is set to play, if the currently playing song needs to fade out, that's dealt with first. A fade-out-song command is sent to the sound CPU, and game code checks every frame if the time for that has passed. Once it has (or if no fade out was requested), it then sends the command to play the new song. I added hooks to a bunch of steps in the communication routine between the SNES main CPU and its sound CPU so that I could defer until a later frame to give the game time to function in between more data transfers and synchronization signals. I force a deferment every 512 bytes of song sequence data, and 756 bytes of instrument data (instrument data can be many kilobytes), plus at some specific synchronization points in the communication protocol so that it doesn't impact framerate too drastically.

There's a trade off between making the process unnoticeable to a human (no meaningful slowdown) and how long it takes to start a song. I ultimately settled for medium slowdown, but so that you won't run half way across a map before a new song starts playing.

Now, there are of course limitations. If a sound needs to play, it cannot while a song is still being transfered, so a sound attempt during an asynchronous song transfer will cause the song loader to finish, locking the game up if necessary. Sounds include things like looping waterfall sounds, often played along with music on maps with waterfalls, so these areas will still have a hard pause when you enter. Some enemies make sounds as soon as you enter a map (snoring goblins, clapping embermen, knights, etc.), so they too can cause a song load to become synchronous, and then you get a basically vanilla-like pause. Normally, player running sounds would cause this synchronizing behavior as well, but I special cased those to be ignored (be silent) while a song is loading. Non-looping songs (victory music, got item music, cannon launch) are also played synchronously so that their timing with visuals is consistent.

And finally, there may be crazy bugs in this, and they would likely be real bad (freeze / hang). I tried to test all unique circumstances I could, but I need more eyeballs on this to shake out anything I missed. I also haven't tested with mixed MSU / SPC song behavior.



Memorex, thanks for those bug reports.

I don't think I've ever tried to sequence break in the imperial castle for whatever reason. I'm generally not against ignoring those types of issues as long as they don't prevent game completion, and can't be done accidentally, but I'll still go play with them and see how safe / unsafe it is.

Regarding the Pandoran Ruins, kethinov has made a "No Glitching Into Pandora Ruins" hack, but I've not integrated it into Turbo yet.

Regarding the Tropics stove, that might be a side effect of Quality_of_Life\Faster_Chest_Opening; the new animation added for chest opening might be affecting a stove animation. I need to go take a look. I'll fix it regardless, just mentioning in case anyone finds that info interesting.



hmsong, are the snake bosses' (and lich) deaths different than vanilla? I didn't think anything should be making those different than vanilla. As far as I recall when I checked in on the Great Viper, behavior was vanilla (even if arguably screwy there as well, but not dysfunctional), but I could be misremembering.

Hm, Bug_Fixes\Defeat_Waits_For_Events could be having some unexpected interaction? Needs confirmation that what occurs for those bosses is different than vanilla.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2021, 04:00:31 pm by Queue »