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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210502  (Read 502824 times)

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210131
« Reply #1780 on: February 01, 2021, 08:28:34 pm »
Oh my.  Please do Layout 2.  As you said, the generic part is the most used one, so I'd like that to be at the bottom (easier for me to find).  Layout 3 does make more logical sense, but now that I know how it works (and that part is mostly for me), I'd prefer convenience.

Though if you can add in something like this in the generic part, that would be great.
Code: [Select]
&(encode)\User-Defined\.asm ' <this part is applied first, despite the order>
Sort of a note for anyone else who wants to use it.  And a reminder for myself too.

Thanks.

Oh, and if you can add a blank lines before the first line <&(encode)\User-Defined> and at the end after< &(encode)\User-Defined\.asm\>, that would be great.  It's easier to see.  Maybe I'm just nitpicking.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1781 on: February 01, 2021, 10:38:07 pm »
Version 2021-02-01:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.210201.zip

Technical Changes:
- jazzed up Technical\Exception_Handler to show diagnostic crash info on screen
- tweaks to make the user-defined section at the end of the ZPS file more useful



No changes a typical user should notice this update. The improved exception handler might make getting me info in the case of a crash possible; we'll see.

hmsong, check the User-Defined section and tell me what you think. I can't put a comment on the actual virtual filename line (the lines that start with an ampersand & and generally end with .asm, etc.); the ZPS patcher chops the ZPS file on those lines BEFORE removing comments, so any comments on those lines actually become part of the virtual filename.

So using what you wrote as an example:
&(encode)\User-Defined\.asm   ' <this part is applied first, despite the order>
Actually causes it to portion out a virtual file named:
".asm   ' <this part is applied first, despite the order>"
Which would require something like:
ASM <.asm   ' <this part is applied first, despite the order>>
Which wouldn't work, for various reasons.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1782 on: February 01, 2021, 11:02:50 pm »
Yes, this looks good.  I shall experiment around.  Thank you.

Memorex

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1783 on: February 03, 2021, 05:14:14 pm »
So I've finally sat down for a bit and started playing this hack. Like I've stated before, the amounts of updates released (which is awesome) made me want to hold off a playthrough as long as possible, but the loveliness of the VWF and the new translation was too tempting. Seems like most of it is working good enought now anyway  :) I'm keeping the stamina counter to keep the game a bit more tactical, but most other new features enabled. So far, the ability to run diagonally, the scroll hack and faster chest opening and proper casing really sticks out as great improvements. VWF looks good, the arrow in the textbox is a nice feature as well! There is no way to return to vanilla after this!

I noticed that after encountering the first rabite, if you walk towards it after the message, the characters movement stops for like half a second moving forward. Noticed a similar thing when entering the screen with Nekos house, as well as entering Potos. If you enter the new screen and just keep walking the slight lag will occur. Fired up vanilla and there seemed to be a hint of the same thing there, but it felt more prominent in Turbo? Snes9x core on retroarch.

The goblin village hade me confused and I thought I had glitched the game when I managed to exit left and found myself by the waterfalls in a sunset setting. The I remembered reading something about the village in this thread  ;)

I also noticed a vanilla bug I had totally forgotten about, don't know if it is of any interest to this hack, but maybe it's easy to sort? Its by the signpost outside the first Cannon travel center. If you read the sign and walk left, there is an invisible wall you cant pass. You have to move down instead.

Keep up the good work!

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1784 on: February 03, 2021, 07:22:32 pm »
An "error" for Reborn.

After being banished from Potos and you go to the Water Palace, you can go to the right and try to enter the Undine's cave, but of course you'll be blocked.  And when you're blocked, it says, "We're being pushed back by an invisible force!"  It says "We", but Randi is all alone.  Perhaps you can reduce that so that it becomes, "Pushed back by an invisible force!"  Or if the dialog box is specifically said from the Randi/party, then it ought to be, "An invisible force is pushing back!"  Or "Something invisible is in the way!"

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1785 on: February 03, 2021, 07:28:17 pm »
An "error" for Reborn.

After being banished from Potos and you go to the Water Palace, you can go to the right and try to enter the Undine's cave, but of course you'll be blocked.  And when you're blocked, it says, "We're being pushed back by an invisible force!"  It says "We", but Randi is all alone.  Perhaps you can reduce that so that it becomes, "Pushed back by an invisible force!"  Or if the dialog box is specifically said from the Randi/party, then it ought to be, "An invisible force is pushing back!"  Or "Something invisible is in the way!"

You must be psychic!  :laugh:

Queue mentioned this recently and is fixing it for V1.10, which we'll release soon.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 07:37:16 pm by ManaRedux »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1786 on: February 03, 2021, 07:44:22 pm »
You must be psychic!  :laugh:

Queue mentioned this recently and is fixing it for V1.10, which we'll hopefully release soon.

Lol.  Fast reply!

Also, others:
- When talking to Luka first in the Water Palace, she says, "The Seal on the Water Seed grows ever weaker...".  Why is Seal capitalized?  No other words of seals are capitalized, even in the same scene.
- Why is Luka referred as Rusa, Sage, and Master, all by Jema?  Since he's the person speaking, shouldn't he be consistent and pick one?
- When Jema and Luka are talking in the same scene, and he speaks to Randi to say, "Randi, you should make your way through the cave known as Gaia's Navel.", Jema doesn't actually turn to face Randi until the next text box (looked like Jema is calling Luka as Randi).  I don't know if this is something you guys can change though.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1787 on: February 03, 2021, 07:51:19 pm »
Also, others:
- When talking to Luka first in the Water Palace, she says, "The Seal on the Water Seed grows ever weaker...".  Why is Seal capitalized?  No other words of seals are capitalized, even in the same scene.
- Why is Luka referred as Rusa, Sage, and Master, all by Jema?  Since he's the person speaking, shouldn't he be consistent and pick one?
- When Jema and Luka are talking in the same scene, and he speaks to Randi to say, "Randi, you should make your way through the cave known as Gaia's Navel.", Jema doesn't actually turn to face Randi until the next text box (looked like Jema is calling Luka as Randi).  I don't know if this is something you guys can change though.

1)Great catch!  Fixed.

2)Rusa Luka is Luka's full name, a reference to Rusalka.  It was left out of the English script, but spoken twice in the Japanese.  So it's not a title like the other two.

The titles are not exactly the same thing. I think Sage is a more specific designation, and Master is more of an honorific.  FWIW, Randi also refers to her both ways.

3)If that's going to be fixed, it'd have to be a Turbo module.  It was not a goal of the Reborn patch to improve that sort of thing.   


hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1788 on: February 03, 2021, 08:05:42 pm »
1)Great catch!  Fixed.

2)Rusa Luka is Luka's full name, a reference to Rusalka.  It was left out of the English script, but spoken twice in the Japanese.  So it's not a title like the other two.

The titles are not exactly the same thing. I think Sage is a more specific designation, and Master is more of an honorific.  FWIW, Randi also refers to her both ways.

3)If that's going to be fixed, it'd have to be a Turbo module.  It was not a goal of the Reborn patch to improve that sort of thing.

Gottya.

2) Lol, I thought Rusa was some sort of title that I was unaware of.  Haha.

3) I'm pretty sure vanilla didn't have that problem (due to shorter script), meaning the timing issue was due to Reborn.  It alters events (Jema and Randi facing each other), and doesn't Reborn specifically deal with events?

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1789 on: February 03, 2021, 08:27:37 pm »
Memorex, the movement pause you're noticing is a new song starting. When you change maps, your characters finish whatever movement instruction the "door" (called a door even if you walked up a dirt path to change areas, etc.) you entered through gave, then the automatic event for the new map activates. If the automatic event plays a different song than what's already playing, the current song stops and a new song starts. In vanilla, stopping a song to start a new song locks up the game during both the old song fading out and the new song loading. With Turbo, Audio\Async_Music_Crossfade removes the lock up during the old song fading, but loading the new song still causes a framerate hiccup (usually). This means you get to move for a moment while the previous song fades out, unlike vanilla where after a map change you just can't move at all until the new song has loaded. Ultimately, I'd like to improve SoM's song loader to not have to pause the game as noticeably; I've tried before and failed, but still expect to figure something out someday. While you might be noticing it more clearly with Turbo (again, Async_Music_Crossfade specifically) since you get to move for a moment before the pause, you actually lose less time than in vanilla.

Eventually I want to improve the Goblin Village so you don't always get teleported to the totem pole when you enter (from either west or east); hopefully if you entered where you exit, people would be less confused about how to leave. There are very very few unused doors, so using two just for that tiny map feels like a waste; I also would like to make a combat version of the map to use (and one that is affected by time of day), so as to feel like those doors are being put to good use. Pretty complicated work though and haven't found the time to work on that.

The signpost collision is probably unfixable. They use a specialized tile collision option to trigger their events (to show text), and have a lot of caveats to work correctly, one of which is their odd horizontal collision. The tile for the signpost message event doesn't let you enter or leave that tile horizontally. I suspect the original developers wanted the signs to only be "read" if you were facing upward, specifically looking at them, and this was how they accomplished it.



hmsong, like ManaRedux said, we only just noticed the Undine cave message issue as well. It's been changed.

ManaRedux covered your questions regarding Seal and Luka's titles.

For Jema turning to face the boy, that's the same timing/behavior as vanilla. Looking at vanilla, I think the intent was Jema says a short line addressing the boy, THEN they turn to face each other to acknowledge the shift in conversation. Like, Jema says it before turning his attention away from Luka. In Reborn, this line became much longer, so the delay before they face each other is more awkward, but it does still occur at the same point in the conversation.

I could probably change it so that Jema turns to face the boy as he says that line, and the wait after it will only turn the boy as a reaction. That should make the interaction feel more natural. We tried to keep event actions/animations the same as vanilla, since they're also the same as the original Japanese. This is trivial for me to change in Reborn, but whether we do is ManaRedux's call (not trying to put you on the spot, just that this sort of design choice is up to you).

Some outright bugs in events HAVE been fixed in Reborn, just to make inserting the new text as painless as possible if nothing else.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1790 on: February 04, 2021, 08:17:47 am »
Okay, a bit more from Reborn (some may not be errors):

- When talking to Pandora king the first time ("There's no denying it..."), why does Primm say, "Sorry about your luck!"?  How about, "Well, excuuuuse me!", or "Well, PARDON me!"  I think that's still in line with her sarcastic tsundere high-class personality.
- Also, king's line (the same line) cannot be canceled.  I don't know if this is intended or not.
- When fighting the twin werewolves (saving Primm), Primm says, "Boy over there!  I need a little help!  Don't you think?"  Even after already knowing who Randi is (I'm aware that it's because she may not know Randi yet, depending on what player did earlier).  So how about, "Hey!  I need a little help, don't you think?"  Or better yet, "Hey!  Give me a little help, why don't you!"  That way, it fits both scenes.
- The 1st Neko shop and 1st Pandora shop (before clearing the Pandora Ruins) uses the old, ""Came to buy, Came to sell", instead of simple "Buy, Sell" that all other shops have.  Is this intended?

Miles

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1791 on: February 04, 2021, 09:56:33 am »
I gave the newest version a try and I actually like what I see, for playing it the first time. The battle system is much better compared to the original.

If I may add something: The game needs a "fixed" name option where the characters are named after their original names: Randi, Primm and Poipoi.

Memorex

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1792 on: February 04, 2021, 11:43:29 am »
Thanks for the explanations. As for the signpost, it's odd that only that particular signpost behaves like that. :huh:
I also noticed the message at the cave entrance but forgot to mention it, heh.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1793 on: February 04, 2021, 12:41:22 pm »
Okay, a bit more from Reborn (some may not be errors):

- When talking to Pandora king the first time ("There's no denying it..."), why does Primm say, "Sorry about your luck!"?  How about, "Well, excuuuuse me!", or "Well, PARDON me!"  I think that's still in line with her sarcastic tsundere high-class personality.
- Also, king's line (the same line) cannot be canceled.  I don't know if this is intended or not.
- When fighting the twin werewolves (saving Primm), Primm says, "Boy over there!  I need a little help!  Don't you think?"  Even after already knowing who Randi is (I'm aware that it's because she may not know Randi yet, depending on what player did earlier).  So how about, "Hey!  I need a little help, don't you think?"  Or better yet, "Hey!  Give me a little help, why don't you!"  That way, it fits both scenes.
- The 1st Neko shop and 1st Pandora shop (before clearing the Pandora Ruins) uses the old, ""Came to buy, Came to sell", instead of simple "Buy, Sell" that all other shops have.  Is this intended?

1)Eh, it mocks them plenty as is.  >:D
2)Queue will have to answer that.
3)This is likely because the same line is used if you've met her or haven't.  Queue?
4)The closest Japanese translation is, "I came to buy" and "I came to sell."  We couldn't fit that in the space, so we shortened it.  Most choices in the game have embellished text over the original SNES translation.  BUT, now that we have the proportional font, we plan on making use of the space, so we just may able to fix things like that. 

Memorex

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1794 on: February 04, 2021, 01:05:37 pm »
One more thing, when you are banished from the village, the line spoken by the villager at the exit is identical to a line spoken by a woman in the elders hut a minute ago. I might be totally lost here but I was under the impression that the original line should read quite close to the vanilla line "You are hereby banished from potos village, now get out"?

"

Just ignore the shader, it did not scale very well..  8)

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1795 on: February 04, 2021, 01:17:18 pm »
One more thing, when you are banished from the village, the line spoken by the villager at the exit is identical to a line spoken by a woman in the elders hut a minute ago. I might be totally lost here but I was under the impression that the original line should read quite close to the vanilla line "You are hereby banished from potos village, now get out"?

Ehh...that's weird.  Maybe a Turbo bug.  Queue?

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1796 on: February 04, 2021, 02:40:22 pm »
hmsong/ManaRedux:
1) "Sorry about your luck!" is being said to the king in response to his comment about his forces being wiped out. I mostly agree with hmsong here, "Sorry about your luck!" is a tough sell with the pacing of the conversation (she has a lot to say between the king's text, the guard's indignation, and the retort). On it's face, it feels like she's retorting the guard. This whole dialogue tree is tough to keep organized so that all branches make sense, and it's not even that complex of one. Row 1217.
2) Pandora's king has branching dialogue that sets event flags. One branch of text that leads to that "Insolence!" text is safe to abort, but the initial stuff before the branch, said by the king, isn't safe to abort. In vanilla, the initial text was only one text box, so you didn't hit a non-abortable pause before the branch, but in Reborn, he has more to say. Looking at it, I might be able to adjust things so that the abortable branch only gets the king's first text box.
3) That is hmsong's point; the girl may or may not have met the boy at this point, but there's only one line of text associated with the werewolf event. As it's currently worded, it always sounds like she's never met him, but with a small adjustment the line could be just neutral enough that it works in either situation. It's mainly the "Boy over there!" that messes things up. Row 1765.
4) Some otherwise repeated dialogue options have some minor degree of variety, Neko's shop and zombie Pandora shop happen to be wordier. This matches wordier and less wordier buy/sell prompts in Japanese. (かいにきた うりにきた) versus (かう うる)



Memorex, you're witnessing a tweak to the village guard guy for Miscellaneous\Revisit_Potos. Kethinov felt the original banished text didn't fit: "hereby banished" became "please leave" by reusing that other villager's text. Reborn changes "Please leave!" to "Get out of here!"

Regarding the signposts, they all use that same collision tile, and whether you're blocked horizontally has to do with complex rules that govern compatible adjacent collision tiles. So there are others that block you horizontally; some are less obvious due to their placement. Some could be improved if their adjacent horizontal tile(s) can be changed to one with collision that is compatible, but in some cases, that isn't possible (due to lack of a viable option in that tileset). Regardless, map edits are a massive undertaking, and this is very low on my list of priorities. Not saying it won't happen, just that it's likely a good hour per signpost that can be improved.



And a fun vanilla bug, if there's a fleeing treasure chest and you barrel your whole party, the treasure chest goes bonkers (try it and see!) until you remove the barrel from at least one character. At a glance, I don't think there's a sane way to fix this, but thankfully it's not game-breaking and is recoverable (just remove a barrel).

It's caused by the general purpose "find nearest player" targeting AI that basically all enemies use; when it can't find a target due to them all being barrel'd it has some fallback logic (to essentially wait for a valid target) that plays animations 2 and 4 which... aren't suitable for chests to use in this context.

I almost never touch reddit, but looked at a SoM board there and someone had brought that bug up. It's super wacky to witness and if I knew about it prior, I had forgotten.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1797 on: February 04, 2021, 02:45:40 pm »
hmsong/ManaRedux:
3) That is hmsong's point; the girl may or may not have met the boy at this point, but there's only one line of text associated with the werewolf event. As it's currently worded, it always sounds like she's never met him, but with a small adjustment the line could be just neutral enough that it works in either situation. It's mainly the "Boy over there!" that messes things up. Row 1765.

What I was saying is that like a lot of things, the inconsistency is there in vanilla, and we didn't go out of our way to fix every one of those inconsistencies.  I know you recently fixed the message at Undine's waterfall, so if you feel strongly about this, we can change it too.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1798 on: February 04, 2021, 03:00:55 pm »
This one is of our own making though. In vanilla, the girl just yells "Heeelp!!" here. Taosenai's translation actually is worded in such a way that would work regardless of the girl's familiarity with the boy. I think the slight permutation we wound up with counts as a mistranslation. She's not saying, "Boy over there, help me!" she's saying "Help me! It's the manly thing to do."

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210201
« Reply #1799 on: February 04, 2021, 03:09:18 pm »
This one is of our own making though. In vanilla, the girl just yells "Heeelp!!" here. Taosenai's translation actually is worded in such a way that would work regardless of the girl's familiarity with the boy. I think the slight permutation we wound up with counts as a mistranslation. She's not saying, "Boy over there, help me!" she's saying "Help me! It's the manly thing to do."

"Hey, help me out!  You're a man [literally, boy], aren't you?"

When I read this, it seems to be written for the scenario where she doesn't know who Randi is.  I understand that it could be referring to his manly duties (which is why it happens to work the other way too), but really, they could've written a better line.  "Hey!  It's me!  Help!" or some rubbish for the familiar case.

However, you are correct that it can be misinterpreted as we have it.  We could just cut, "Boy over there!" And just have "I need a little help!  Don't you think!?"